500,000 march in LA

[Guest InuYasha]

Second, these "shitty" jobs wouldn't seem so shitty if people were actually paid a decent wage to do them. But, as long as you have employers that can skirt the law with the full blessing of their friends in the government, that will never happen. Market forces within the US have determined that the pay for these jobs needs to go up, but employers simply hire people who do not need to make as much for their family to survive because they are sending their money outside of the country where the standard of living is much lower. We've basically become an ATM machine for Mexico at this point.

http://www.ncpa.org/newdpd/dpdarticle.php?article_id=1655

[razazteca 0]

I hope the US gets overrun with immigrants and they take over the country.

Do dishwashers, landscape, migrate workers vote?

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Does anyone understand "market forces dictate wages" or is that basic economic principle lost?

 

These jobs don't pay SHIT because the market dictates that they don't pay SHIT. There is NOTHING that can be done to remedy this "problem" If you artificially increase wages, the ONLY thing you accomplish is short-term gain and long-term inflation.

 

I swear this is why I get a bad wrap.

 

Look, let them do our shitty jobs, our jobs that don't require an education. Them, while they do that (which makes them better off, actually), we edumacate our populace and do jobs that require and education. Both groups are better off.

 

But its easier to whine and bitch and throw money at the problem. Or blame immigrants.

 

Blame yourself if you cant get a good job. Blame the educational system and corrupt politicians you voted into office. But dont blame these immigrants

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

I agree with Popick so tremendously much. The American populace is evolving to a point where high school education is practically required, college is expected, and graduate/professional program enrollment is increasing as well. The entire bar is shifting upward (which is great, in my opinion--increasing our standards for education makes us a more capable country on both micro and macro levels) and illegals are a big part of why that's allowed to happen. If they could all be legal, great. But our government won't allow that, and low-wage immigrants are crucial. Take what we can get.

 

Security, I feel, is almost an entirely different issue, perhaps wrongly conflated with the economic considerations of the whole thing.

[Slayer 0]

Of course, some would say that an American Master's Degree is on par with a European Bachelor's Degree at this point

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Why do you think I got a Master's Degree? I would agree with you Slayer!

[Slayer 0]

Why do you think I got a Master's Degree?

No applicable skills for a real job?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm allowed to make fun in this case, since I also have a BS in Econ and went to grad school partly to avoid a "real job"

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Good one!

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

Why do you think I got a Master's Degree?

No applicable skills for a real job?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm allowed to make fun in this case, since I also have a BS in Econ and went to grad school partly to avoid a "real job"

 

I would like to stay in school as long as possible to avoid a real job. Unfortunately, I got a fellowship that is gonna make me work for a year or two or have to pay it back.

[SuperJerk 0]

Some of work and go to grad school at the same time, you know.

[EricMM 0]

Unfortunately, Popkick, going to school costs MONEY.

 

It's all well and good for me to talk about making my way through college, I live in a reasonably large city, and can get to several others.

 

Someone in a depressed town in Pennsylvania, Iowa, etc. doesn't necessarily have the same options.

[Jingus 0]

Popick, I gotta disagree with ya buddy on this one. Your proposal (which some people would call racist, not me, but some) kind of ignores the millions of Americans who are either uneducated, untalented, or just plain stupid. I couldn't begin to guess how many US citizens there are who never finished high school, but I bet it's a big-ass number. And illegal immigrants definitely do compete with those people directly for those shitty jobs.

 

Main Question: what is so damned intimidating about the American legal immigration process that keeps these illegals from going through it? Seriously, you have either Choice A: filling out a bunch of paperwork and waiting a little while in order to become a legit citizen, or Choice B: swim across a river, climb a fence, wander through the desert, run from border guards; and if you make it in safely, then you live almost like a fugitive and are denied many vital government services. Why the fuck do millions of people chose B over A?

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

I think you're underestimating how difficult the citizenship process is, and numbers are limited.

[Jingus 0]

Well, how difficult is it? Why are the illegals willing to go through all that trouble just to avoid doing it?

[NoCalMike 0]

Does anyone understand "market forces dictate wages" or is that basic economic principle lost?

 

These jobs don't pay SHIT because the market dictates that they don't pay SHIT. There is NOTHING that can be done to remedy this "problem" If you artificially increase wages, the ONLY thing you accomplish is short-term gain and long-term inflation.

 

I swear this is why I get a bad wrap.

 

Look, let them do our shitty jobs, our jobs that don't require an education. Them, while they do that (which makes them better off, actually), we edumacate our populace and do jobs that require and education. Both groups are better off.

 

But its easier to whine and bitch and throw money at the problem. Or blame immigrants.

 

Blame yourself if you cant get a good job. Blame the educational system and corrupt politicians you voted into office. But dont blame these immigrants

 

But how does this work exactly when we have a minimum wage, it is part of the law, however when illegals flood over and do these jobs for under the minimum wage,? Isn't that artificially decreasing the wages due to the law being broken?

 

I personally feel that Big Business wants illegal immigration to grow because it offers them cheap labor and it can tip the balance of the stuggle with labor unions in their favor by flooding the market place with labor.

[EricMM 0]

I'm sure that Popkick thinks minimum wage is useless in general anyways.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

It's fine for teenagers that need money for gas, but not for raising a family.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Consider the amounts of european immigrants that came here way back when. There's more polish people in chicago than anywhere else in the world but friggin' WARSAW.

 

Immigration is a part of this country, plain and simple. The "lack of assimilation" hasn't hurt anyone, it's just brought about a Little Italy, or a Chinatown in most major cities. What's the problem with individual people retaining their own culture and heritage while living and working here? As long as they pay taxes, more power to 'em.

There's nothing wrong with maintaining your heritage, but there is a certain degree of assimilation that has to be undergone, i.e. speaking English, which would hopefully come about somewhere down the line. ESL classrooms aren't flooded with Polish speakers, after all.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Frankly, I don't think it would hurt most americans to show some initiative and learn some spanish. Meet the immigrants somewhere in the middle. Why is the US damn near the only country on the planet that doesn't really mandate learning other languages in primary school? Most Europeans can get by in a few different tongues.

 

Since taking my new position where I work, I have to do tech support type stuff, assisting people on a warehouse floor who speak little to no english. It's a shitload easier for me to learn some basic phrases in spanish while they learn some words in english than it would be for one side demanding that the other "assimilate."

 

American english has all kinds of hodgepodge foreign words in its lexicon that were introduced by immigrants.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Frankly, I don't think it would hurt most americans to show some initiative and learn some spanish. Meet the immigrants somewhere in the middle. Why is the US damn near the only country on the planet that doesn't really mandate learning other languages in primary school? Most Europeans can get by in a few different tongues.

That's a product of being in such close proximity to so many languages, of which English, French, and/or German can each act as a lingua franca of sorts depending on which neck of the woods you're in. Barring Quebec, Mexico, heterogeneous cities, and Amish enclaves, we've got a giant continent of English. We should be learning more foreign languages, though, and I wish we had a better excuse than "we speak American goddammit." Multilingualism just isn't as urgent for Nebraskans as it is for Belgians, whose English is probably better than ours anyway, notwithstanding a full plate of Walloon French and Flemish as priorities.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Might not be important in Nebraska right now, but how about Texas, Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, and Florida?

 

The necessity thing should really take a back seat to "If the frenchies can do it, we can do it better" egomania that makes america fuckin' The USA.

 

Comprende?

[The Czech Republic 0]

Ouais, homme.

[Skywarp! 0]

Bradshaw: "Dey terk mah jeeerb!"

 

[Guest The Satanic Angel]

Have they managed to make English the national language, yet?

 

Without a national language, I can't see any reason to FORCE immigrants to learn it.

 

Don't get me wrong, I despise illegal immigrants and wish they would learn the language.

 

I was in an apartment in FL and learned that some white guy was housing NINE of his illegal immigrant laborers in a two bedroom apartment. The complex knew of it and probably let them stay for a bit because the guy paid in advance, but after the immigrants trashed two different apartments, they were booted out.

 

The illegal immigrants I've come in contact with have always shown a total disregard of laws/culture/people, etc. Real assholes that I wouldn't want as part of our population.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Don't get me wrong, I despise illegal immigrants.

 

Real assholes that I wouldn't want as part of our population.

 

Phew, good. For a minute I thought that you didn't hate them.

[Guest The Satanic Angel]

Don't get me wrong, I despise illegal immigrants.

 

Real assholes that I wouldn't want as part of our population.

 

Phew, good. For a minute I thought that you didn't hate them.

 

I'm so used to get blasted for having a differing opinion..

[Perfxion 0]

English isn't our national language. The closest this country ever got to adapting a national language was German. NY, CT, FL, NC, SC, TX, NM,AZ, CA, VA, NJ, and a bunch other states all have atleast 30% of the people speaking Spanish. It wouldn't hurt the US for everyone in grade school to learn fucking Spanish as well as English.

 

Besides, without immigrants, the Yankees wouldn't have the pitching staff it does.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Some of work and go to grad school at the same time, you know.

 

I worked 3 jobs which totaled about 40 hours a week during my undergraduate degree, and a full-time job while I was getting my graduate. it sucks, but its doable.

Unfortunately, Popkick, going to school costs MONEY.

 

It's all well and good for me to talk about making my way through college, I live in a reasonably large city, and can get to several others.

 

Someone in a depressed town in Pennsylvania, Iowa, etc. doesn't necessarily have the same options.

I've never once said that we couldn't do something like to promote and encourage educational attainment. Its one of a few very things I think the government can and should do. We could take all this money we spend on immigration enforcement and social welfare and turn it right around into funding an education for people who WANT to work their way out of poverty. But its easier to give a handout and ignore the real problem. The longer we go without addressing the growing educational disparity among Americans, the more of problem we will leave to the future, and the less solvable it will be.

Popick, I gotta disagree with ya buddy on this one. Your proposal (which some people would call racist, not me, but some) kind of ignores the millions of Americans who are either uneducated, untalented, or just plain stupid. I couldn't begin to guess how many US citizens there are who never finished high school, but I bet it's a big-ass number. And illegal immigrants definitely do compete with those people directly for those shitty jobs.

 

Main Question: what is so damned intimidating about the American legal immigration process that keeps these illegals from going through it? Seriously, you have either Choice A: filling out a bunch of paperwork and waiting a little while in order to become a legit citizen, or Choice B: swim across a river, climb a fence, wander through the desert, run from border guards; and if you make it in safely, then you live almost like a fugitive and are denied many vital government services. Why the fuck do millions of people chose B over A?

Don't take thsi the wrong way, but if you didn't complete high school, can't talk so that I can understand you, and lack ambition to improve your lot in life, that is not my concern and therefore, my government should not be paying money to support those kinds of behaviors.

The immigration process is horrible, its mired in bureaucracy and we still use freaking quotas.

 

I'm glad you recognize that I'm not being racist. I'm sick of how the government has chosen to address the problems low-skill low-education Americans face. Funding education, not food stamps, unemployment benefits, et. al, welfare shizzie (which includes the minimum wage) will not help us solve the long-term problem.

Does anyone understand "market forces dictate wages" or is that basic economic principle lost?

 

These jobs don't pay SHIT because the market dictates that they don't pay SHIT. There is NOTHING that can be done to remedy this "problem" If you artificially increase wages, the ONLY thing you accomplish is short-term gain and long-term inflation.

 

I swear this is why I get a bad wrap.

 

Look, let them do our shitty jobs, our jobs that don't require an education. Them, while they do that (which makes them better off, actually), we edumacate our populace and do jobs that require and education. Both groups are better off.

 

But its easier to whine and bitch and throw money at the problem. Or blame immigrants.

 

Blame yourself if you cant get a good job. Blame the educational system and corrupt politicians you voted into office. But dont blame these immigrants

 

But how does this work exactly when we have a minimum wage, it is part of the law, however when illegals flood over and do these jobs for under the minimum wage,? Isn't that artificially decreasing the wages due to the law being broken?

 

I personally feel that Big Business wants illegal immigration to grow because it offers them cheap labor and it can tip the balance of the stuggle with labor unions in their favor by flooding the market place with labor.

I'm sure that Popkick thinks minimum wage is useless in general anyways.

It is, by every piece of evidence we have available, its done nothing significant to improve the lot in life of poor Americans and mainly serves to fund teen's spending habits.

It's fine for teenagers that need money for gas, but not for raising a family.

Absolutely correct.

 

To NoCal

--Yes, that is what it does, and without these illegals, those jobs WOULDN'T be able to be done anyways, because it wouldnt be worth it for the employers to hire for it. Or we'd have less jobs available.

[Guest The Satanic Angel]

English isn't our national language. The closest this country ever got to adapting a national language was German.

 

This was back in the days of the Declaration of Independence, correct?

 

Imagine the fuss people would throw if German was made the national language today.

[Jingus 0]

Main Question: what is so damned intimidating about the American legal immigration process that keeps these illegals from going through it? Seriously, you have either Choice A: filling out a bunch of paperwork and waiting a little while in order to become a legit citizen, or Choice B: swim across a river, climb a fence, wander through the desert, run from border guards; and if you make it in safely, then you live almost like a fugitive and are denied many vital government services. Why the fuck do millions of people chose B over A?

 

Seriously, anyone? I've asked this here and at the Pit, and the only answers I've gotten at all have been vague "it's not that easy to immigrate" and "we don't want many immigrants so we limit the numbers" type deals. Does anyone know exactly, specifically what about the legal immigration process is so hard?