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Lord of The Curry

The influcence of mixed martial arts in pro wrestling

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People usually don't let the facts get in the way of their arguments. With MMA, especially.

 

 

 

Who are you referring to?

 

And CC I'm interested to hear these three deaths. I only know of Doug Dedge, and I don't consider that MMA so much as underground NHB. There's a huge difference between the two.

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MMA has rules and regulations, same as boxing.

 

In both, people get hurt, beat the fuck up, sometimes die.

 

That shit doesn't happen all that often.

 

If anybody enjoys pro wrestling, knowing all the shit that happens to those guys in the ring or not, should never ever feel guilty about watching MMA or boxing, UFC...whatever.

 

There are far more sad stoies in wrestling then there will ever be in MMA or boxing, and wrestling is the "fake" one.

 

Compare a Tank Abbott or Ken Shamrock to a Steve Austin or Kurt angle. The two wrestlers are way worse off physically and or mentally then the two UFC guys, and Angle and Austin's problems started within the past, what, 7 years, and the UFC dudes had been at it longer then them at what they were doing.

 

But anyway...

 

Some MMA mixed in here and there can be a good thing.

 

Guys like Benoit, Angle, Punk, Finlay, Regal, Low-Ki, Somoa Joe, Terkay... these are the type of dudes that could pull it off.

 

If Carlito and Chris Masters come out doing some MMA type shit ti would be horrible.

 

Even if they managed to pull it off to look decent, the crowd wouldn't really buy it and it would go against thier established styles.

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Compare a Tank Abbott or Ken Shamrock to a Steve Austin or Kurt angle. The two wrestlers are way worse off physically and or mentally then the two UFC guys, and Angle and Austin's problems started within the past, what, 7 years, and the UFC dudes had been at it longer then them at what they were doing.
How many fighters in MMA have come back from breaking their necks? point to one, then compare that one to Austin or Angle instead.

 

or compare Abbot or Shamrock to someone who has NOT broken their necks perhaps? cause you can find extremes in either sport, broken necks are not the rule but the exception in wrestling.

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Guest wildpegasus
Regarding the actual thread subject, I think it would be a bad idea to put too much MMA influence in pro wrestling, because it would make the wrestlers that don't use the moves look bad. Like Lord of the Curry said, if one guy can make a guy tap in seconds, but it takes another guy a minute-plus to make someone tap, the second guy looks weak in comparison. Or if one guy can KO a guy with one punch, but another guy hits and hits and hits his opponent without even knocking him down, let alone out, it makes the second guy look weak. Keep the two things, and their associated moves, separate.

 

How many submission that get tapouts take over a minute now? Angle's ankle lock for sure but what else is there?

 

One avenue you can perhaps explore is having a couple of MMA like moves be really difficult to put on. Japan's managed to have the cross armbreaker and the Fujiwara armbar over for years now so it can be done so it is possible.

 

Wrestlers can also use their superhuman status as leeway for surviving submission holds if need be.

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Guest thetrendsetter

The psychology behind most MMA submissions, should be that the fight shouldn't be can the guy get out of the move, it should be the fight to lock the move in. Moves like cross armbreakers, fujiwara armbars, kimuras and the such, the whole battle should be can the attacker lock the move in on the defender, little things, like locking hands, bridging out, dumping the guy off of the choke and the such, are what should be used to make the move look like a legitimate threat, once the hold is on, the match should be over within seconds.

 

Remember though, most wrestling submissions back in the day were quick submissions, someone in the fed office has it in thier mindset that drawing that submission out creates drama, in reality, it just creates an opprotunity for grown men to make porn faces at the camera and artifically creates the idea of selling, when in reality, if the defender escapes a leglock, he won't sell it anyways.

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Yes, wrestling could use some aspects from MMA, just as MMA could (and in some cases has), however there's a sort of...line that wrestling and MMA shouldn't cross before they begin stepping on each other's toes and begin to blend. I like watching wrestling because of the spectacle. Storylines, characters, crazy matches, stuff like that. I like to watch MMA because of the realness. Knowing that the two guys have a reason to win and knowing that they'll go all out to get that win. Both have their place and the two can co-exist, since you're not going to find a breath-taking spectacle like Jack Evans in MMA, just as you won't find an incredible fighter like Matt Hughes in wrestling.

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the main thing I want to see, because using restholds will never go away, is guys actually fighting to get out of restholds rather than just laying there getting "choked out"

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This finish continued to piss me off when it was copied for Edge vs Matt Hardy and the recent Great American Bash 2006 match of Mr. Kennedy vs Batista. The GAB match was the worst one because the stomps/kicks by Batista looked like a typical stalling move that everybody from Nash to every generic big man in the wrestling business does on a regular basis!

 

I needed to chime in here, I agree with you, it doesn't normally come across as believable, but this isn't a good example. The match was not ended because of strikes, it was ended because Batista wasn't listening to the ref and continued to choke after the count of 5. Not the same, at all.

 

Dames

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It's the same deal with every MMA match that ends early the ref stopped it prematurely the 5 count was just the pro wrestling spin on it.

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Didn't they also find out that Kennedy had a cut so deep his skull was exposed? Maybe he told the ref and Batista to give him a "safe" finish?

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Batista is Nash on a 'roid rage, whitch makes his workwrate seem better because he's constantly hyped up, like Warrior.

 

Batista has had some decent matches in the past. For a while there, he was starting to get decent, around the time he had like 5 different finishers.*

 

I saw an aftershow match after a supershow between him and HHH, No Holds Barred.

 

This was like 2 months before thier Mania Match and it was better, I thought.

 

They did the powerbomb onto the steps spot, and Batista got the win, like he did with JBL, except HHH took it like a fuckin' man.

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It's the same deal with every MMA match that ends early the ref stopped it prematurely the 5 count was just the pro wrestling spin on it.

 

I disagree. First off, pro wrestling has been around for ages as has the dreaded 5 count, long before MMA was ever popularized so it isn't a spin on anything. Batista did nothing MMA-like in his match with Kennedy. He was just DQ'ed for not obeying the rules. Ref stoppages in MMA are for fighters safety.

 

Secondly, the best example I can think of is Bryan Danielson's title defense against both Roderick Strong and Homocide, which ended after the ref called the match due to a barrage of elbows, which wouldn't have happened had MMA not exploded as much as it has. The fans booed the finish then and I thought that was probably the best it's ever looked.

 

Dames

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Guest Floridian Cool

Angle and Punk make the MMA style work because they know how to blend it with the WWE style. I don't think Terkay's style is going to work out long-term. He looked good and believable on Thursday, but that's because he completely annihilated Hardy and didn't sell any of his stuff. Pro wrestling is a sport of cooperation and once he's thrown in there with say, Batista, and all of a sudden has to sell the unrealistic pro wrestling moves that he didn't cooperate with Hardy on, I think it's going to be a trainwreck that kills all suspension of disbelief. An all-MMA moveset like Terkay's is just no good for the business. It's going to make everybody else's work look hokey in comparison, and when he has to actually sell a superplex or a chokeslam, people are going to be reminded that he's just working. Shamrock's first match with Vader was a lot of fun, but this is exactly why he had to adapt his style thereafter.

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About the guilt thing: I think the main difference between something like boxing and MMA is the expectations. People have died in boxing, been crippled, etc, but I've never seen that recognised as a part of the sport. It's been a 'tragic accident'. But the sport is two men HITTING EACH OTHER IN THE HEAD AS HARD AS THEY CAN.

 

MMA on the other hand, has no illusions. It's about two men getting in a cage and hitting/twisting/kicking each other until one of them gets hurt bad enough for it to stop (or is at an immediate risk of it, and taps out).

 

On the influence of MMA in wrestling: I agree with other people talking about consistency. If one person's hold is going to be much more effective than a similar one done by someone else, there'd better be a damn good reason why.

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To the people who say that Punk can pull it off............did, ummm.....did you actually see his match against Credible?

 

Because if you did: Huh?

 

If you didn't, sorry for the spoiler but he can't pull it off. Weak looking strikes and a goofy submission hold ain't gonna cut it.

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Angle's ankle lock for sure but what else is there?

 

One avenue you can perhaps explore is having a couple of MMA like moves be really difficult to put on. Japan's managed to have the cross armbreaker and the Fujiwara armbar over for years now so it can be done so it is possible.

 

Wrestlers can also use their superhuman status as leeway for surviving submission holds if need be.

 

A proper proper toehold will break someone's ankle if they are comitted to torquing on the hold. All it takes it the proper amount of pressure and they will be on crutches for 6-8 months.

 

A proper armbar will hyperextend the elbow joint and invert it. If a person doesn't tap they could need reconstructive surgery and ligament transplant surgery which can shelve them for 3-6 months.

 

The fujiwara armbar, when fully commited to, will invert the shoulder joint much like "the rack" omoplata variation. Again, 6-8 months rehab.

 

Why do you think wrestling attendances have suffered since the post 2000 MMA boom in Japan? Because people can see what is real and what isn't in a "competitive sport" that is entertainment and a real competitive sport. Promotions like Hustle haven't helped either, although maybe that was DSE's intention to begin with.

 

In reality, bones break, joints invert and ligaments tear if people do not tap. In wrestling, tap outs happen when they are most dramatic. Wrestling is not reality and has not pretended to be for 9 years, why try integrate any into it now?

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I see no real need for WWE to start using MMA moves and the like because in the end it may end up helping MMA as a whole. If people who watch wrestling but aren't exposed to MMA and see wrestlers using MMA and people start liking it, those people may end up seeking out MMA and start watching it. It may not hurt WWE because those fans may still watch wrestling, but it will help it's competitors grow. Also by using MMA moves, the amount of MMA fans it will draw would be limited as most non wrestling MMA fans see the product as fake shit.

 

However, I disagree with the argument that once people see real MMA fighting they will no longer watch fake wrestling. Everybody over the age of about 10 knows that wrestling is "fake". Using that argument, wouldn't people stop watching "fake" T.V shows and "fake" Movies after watching Reality T.V?

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Guest Hotbutter Spoontoaster

"Reality TV" is just as "fake" as "fake TV".

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Why do you think wrestling attendances have suffered since the post 2000 MMA boom in Japan? Because people can see what is real and what isn't in a "competitive sport" that is entertainment and a real competitive sport. Promotions like Hustle haven't helped either, although maybe that was DSE's intention to begin with.
Now you're giving MMA more credit than it deserves, shitty booking by people who don't know jack about wrestling is the main reason why attendance is down in the WWE, I mean do you think Mobile Alabama draws less because MMA is popular in Japan? Come on now.

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I wouldn't call CM Punk a wrestler with an MMA gimmick any more than I would Taker. They're just professional wrestlers who've taken an influence from it and incorporated a few moves. No different than someone taking elements from Japanese wrestling and adding it to what they have. If anything, it's a more legitimate way of say 'well bah gawd, Simon Dean has an extensive amateur background King, don't underestimate this young bluechipper'.

 

I'm a casual MMA fan and not a diehard, but I don't have any interest in straight dead-on MMA gimmicks within professional wrestling. They tend to stick out like a sore thumb. Shamrock was able to mesh with other professional wrestlers and Angle of course 'got it'. You can't go into a professional wrestling show and wrestle a mixed martial arts match every time. If this Terkay guy can bump and play the crowd and all those elements and they manage to convince people he's a professional wrestler instead of just an MMA guy trying to play wrestling, then great. If not, he won't last long.

 

It's professional wrestling. You have to be a wrestler first, MMA guy second.

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Guest Doombiscuit

Sort of topic but as I don't know anythng much about MMA I might as well ask it here. I keep seeing stuff about Broc Lesnar going into MMA and whilst I'm very sceptical of all the reports its conceivable he could end up doing so. If so does any one reckon he'd have a chance?

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Guest wildpegasus
Sort of topic but as I don't know anythng much about MMA I might as well ask it here. I keep seeing stuff about Broc Lesnar going into MMA and whilst I'm very sceptical of all the reports its conceivable he could end up doing so. If so does any one reckon he'd have a chance?

 

Apparantly Miletich thinks he'll do well.

 

"One year from now there won't be anybody alive who can beat him."

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Guest Brian

Brock had some talent as an amateur wrestler, but muscled out a lot of his matches en route to the NCAA title. He's going to need to cut 15 more pounds or so to get under the heavyweight limit in the UFC, and he'll probably be insanely strong and quick at his weight class. There's a lot of periphreals to take into account, so we'll have to see.

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Why do you think wrestling attendances have suffered since the post 2000 MMA boom in Japan? Because people can see what is real and what isn't in a "competitive sport" that is entertainment and a real competitive sport. Promotions like Hustle haven't helped either, although maybe that was DSE's intention to begin with.

Now you're giving MMA more credit than it deserves, shitty booking by people who don't know jack about wrestling is the main reason why attendance is down in the WWE, I mean do you think Mobile Alabama draws less because MMA is popular in Japan? Come on now.

 

I said Japanese MMA boom. There is a reason guys like Bas Rutten. Mark Coleman, Kevin Randleman, Sylvester Terkay (who first appeared on a K-1 card after WWE released him initially), Rodrigo Noguiera (under a mask) and Bob Sapp crossed over and appeared on wrestling events and why guys like Sakuraba and Fujita participate in MMA rather than the arguably safer confines of wrestling, it's because MMA is where the money is at for the most part these days. I'm not expecting what happens in one country's culture to apply to another and I don't think I indicated that either. I suspect you have read what you wanted to in this case, I didn't suggest that Japanese business had an effect on US business anywhere in my posts.

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I'm also fond of chicken tortilla soup. I have my own recipe, which is fairly tasty. I slow cook the chicken before hand, so that it's so tender it will literally pull apart at you fingertips. Add some tomatoes, some broth, onions, assorted spices, maybe some beans if I'm feeling it. Not usually corn, although I like corn; I'll save the corn for the tortillas. The tortillas are added after the fact, of course.

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