An issue with stats that I'm noticing...

[Guest A Silent Presence]

Well, working from the bottom up it comes expected that opponents on that beginning level will have very basic stats. However, there's a line to be drawn between utter laziness and 'entry level' stats. Not to single anyone out, but people really do write their opponent's into a corner when they don't include moves that are key to their style, true to their personality, a shadow of their history, and indicative of their character's stats - specifically, with facing the Scion of Light, I've found it increasingly hard to impliment the stats I put quite a bit of time into (and still aren't perfected) against someone whose stats not only aren't true to the character, but aren't indicative of the style they want to write or the stats they've written up.

 

Some slight changes could be made. Bashing people isn't what this is about, but I think there needs to be a bit more work done on stats, as of recently, I've noticed there are a number of stats in the stat thread a bit dry that could be much better (because I know that with time and effort, anyone can write up a decent set of stats).

 

To S.O.L.: Possibly update your stats to be more fitting - they're fine as it is, but there are a lot of question marks that can't be answered by your stats that came up while trying to write your character. It might be in your interest to maybe add some moves and get a bit more descriptive with your style. Please don't take offense to this, it's meant to make a suggestion and draw attention to a problem I've noticed.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

I'm not sure that I understand what your grievance is: a quick perusal of S.O.L's stats does not indicate anything in her moveset which her stats suggest she should not be physically capable of doing, so what is the beef, exactly? And could you possibly provide a more specific example?

[Guest Divefire]

Hrm, if I'm reading this right I think the issue is with the basic stats of speed, strength, vitality and charisma.

 

Yeah, this is a bit of a bugbear, even when we first started but usually common sense prevails. Originally they were there as a guideline for people to get an idea of how a character worked. Of course this led to some funky stuff back in the day... Ah, people with 11 strength, and cruiserweight highfliers with 4 speed... Memories!

 

When combined with the move sets and other notes it usually gives a fairly good guide line of how to write a character (in theory).

 

The best advice I can give is don't go entirely by stats alone when writing, by their nature they can be a bit deceptive because of the charisma state not being a physical attribute. If some one's move set is a lightweight highflier then that's what they are.

 

There’s also an excellent guide to stat points on the main forum page which has worked very well.

 

Back to lurking!

[Toxxic 0]

Well, working from the bottom up it comes expected that opponents on that beginning level will have very basic stats. However, there's a line to be drawn between utter laziness and 'entry level' stats. Not to single anyone out, but people really do write their opponent's into a corner when they don't include moves that are key to their style, true to their personality, a shadow of their history, and indicative of their character's stats - specifically, with facing the Scion of Light, I've found it increasingly hard to impliment the stats I put quite a bit of time into (and still aren't perfected) against someone whose stats not only aren't true to the character, but aren't indicative of the style they want to write or the stats they've written up.

 

Some slight changes could be made. Bashing people isn't what this is about, but I think there needs to be a bit more work done on stats, as of recently, I've noticed there are a number of stats in the stat thread a bit dry that could be much better (because I know that with time and effort, anyone can write up a decent set of stats).

 

To S.O.L.: Possibly update your stats to be more fitting - they're fine as it is, but there are a lot of question marks that can't be answered by your stats that came up while trying to write your character. It might be in your interest to maybe add some moves and get a bit more descriptive with your style. Please don't take offense to this, it's meant to make a suggestion and draw attention to a problem I've noticed.

 

 

I agree with Dub-Cee - what's the problem here, exactly? What I also note is that you're saying it's hard to implement the stats that YOU have put time and effort into (and justifiably, because your first effort at a luchadore moveset was mediocre) against her, so the issue appears to be your writing rather than her stats. I mean, the only time I find it hard to write against someone is if they are at an extreme of something (such as size - trying to beat Janus with a cruiserweight isn't an easy job, even against Bruce I found myself severely limited with what moves I could pull off) or if, such as JJ Johnson vs Mike, where your opponent outclasses you on EVERYTHING (Johnson was, at least at one point, stronger, faster, tougher and better at mat wrestling and striking than Stephens. Everyone else he'd ever faced he had an advantage SOMEWHERE).

 

Come on. Are you seriously telling us that against a five-foot something, 130lb-or-whatever wrestler you can't come up with a decent bigger vs smaller match, especially since Phantasmo is on the larger end of luchadores?

[Guest A Silent Presence]

First, don't twist my words. The reason it's difficult to use my stats is because there's no definative way for me to go, "OH, I should write this match," when her stats don't accurately reflect what she wants. I'm supposed to write a high-speed wrestler whose speed stat isn't reflective of that and her moves contain all of 2 or 3 'high risk' moves? My stats work on an offensive level, nothing in there signals to me how to write her character on defense other than "she's an honorable" fighter. What should I do? Her character is a power ranger, she has 3 or 4 high-risk moves, a fairly thin move set, and very little that gives me an idea of how comparitively the stats I wrote should be written against the stats she wrote, and that's what I meant.

 

That also nails down why it's difficult to write her. I'm trapped at 3K having written basically a squash match because realistically, there's absolutely no reason any of what she has in her moveset (a high-speed, high-risk, high-energy style) should even compare to my worker whose speed stat is higher and whose vitality is higher. Not to say that's not my own fault, but there's nothing in there for me to write a solid match. I can't start making up moves she doesn't do, I can write spots, but how am I supposed to write, "Scion of Light out-speeds Phantasmo and hits a high-risk flying cross body," without my marker going, "Huh?"

 

Regardless, this match isn't your typical "Bigger vs. Smaller" match, my wrestler isn't big into the high-risk end of things - he can do them, but has since decided to use his striking ability over the high-risk moves he can perform. He's bigger, yes, but he's fast - it can't be written bigger vs. smaller becuase that's not the match type we're looking at. Theoretically I could write that, but it takes the accurate stats and moveset for me to sit and work it out, and that's just not there.

 

At least with JJ's moveset you had something to work with, and, I think it's always easier to write while your character is disadvanted than when they've got the advantage.

 

To divefire: that's my mistake. I need to finish my match and post it on the forum, since I have 3/4's of it actually finished (my internet crapped out as I was writing last night). I'm just used to writing more matches based on stats. I talked to Ace309 who had told me not to fall into the trap of writing a squash, and that's the route I felt I was cornered and confined to.

[Bruce Blank 0]

Here is a tip, the thinner the movelist the more stuff I just make up they can't say that they wouldn't specifically do that move since the general list is mainly a guideline and the "Signature moves" are just moves that the person likes to do the most but they can still pull out other moves, thankfully we're not the WWE where everyone is supposed to have a limited moveset

 

So if you've exhausted the given list then 1) Man that's a short list *tisk*tisk* and B) just add something

 

Desperation moves, reversals, something that's born out of the situation - I've never been docked for using moves not on the list and I've done that quite a lot.

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

I don't understand the problem. Then again, I don't care, either.

[Toxxic 0]

It's a problem only encountered by those who write matches.

 

Roflcopter, ahahaha, *zing!*, etc

[muzz 0]

Here is a tip, the thinner the movelist the more stuff I just make up they can't say that they wouldn't specifically do that move since the general list is mainly a guideline and the "Signature moves" are just moves that the person likes to do the most but they can still pull out other moves, thankfully we're not the WWE where everyone is supposed to have a limited moveset

 

So if you've exhausted the given list then 1) Man that's a short list *tisk*tisk* and B) just add something

 

Desperation moves, reversals, something that's born out of the situation - I've never been docked for using moves not on the list and I've done that quite a lot.

 

This is what I use to do, and a lot of people do as well. You shouldn't let someone's stats get in the way of making things gel better.

 

The bottom line is, it doesn't actually matter.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

First, don't twist my words. The reason it's difficult to use my stats is because there's no definative way for me to go, "OH, I should write this match," when her stats don't accurately reflect what she wants. I'm supposed to write a high-speed wrestler whose speed stat isn't reflective of that and her moves contain all of 2 or 3 'high risk' moves? My stats work on an offensive level, nothing in there signals to me how to write her character on defense other than "she's an honorable" fighter. What should I do? Her character is a power ranger, she has 3 or 4 high-risk moves, a fairly thin move set, and very little that gives me an idea of how comparitively the stats I wrote should be written against the stats she wrote, and that's what I meant.

Calm down, have some dip...

 

First, Toxxic's somewhat blunt tone notwithstanding, he does have a point; if you want to last long in this fed, you're going to have to learn to overcome the difficulty that comes when you have to write against an opponent's whose stats and moveset are a mismatch for your writing style. At the risk of sounding too terse myself, you're going to have to either adapt and overcome, or else get used to losing every time you're booked against them.

 

Regarding the speed issue, you're making a mountain out of a molehill. In the first place, you seem to be confusing "high-speed" with "lucha suicida," and they're not necessarily the same thing. If you work a fast-paced style, you can probably be safely described as a "high-speed" wrestler; if you tend to go to the top rope more than once in a match on average, or if your style has you running to the ropes a lot, it's also probably safe to describe yourself as "high-speed." It doesn't mean that you're always doing corkscrew planchas and standing moonsaults and whatnot... Even if the only "high risk" maneuver in your moveset is a flying double-axe handle, you can probably be safely described as high-speed if you use it frequently enough.

 

In the second place, 6 is a higher speed rating than you're giving it credit for. Especially since, at the moment, there are only three active characters with a higher speed rating (since I am not currently active). And, if you check the stats template, it seems to spell out pretty clearly that 6 is meant to be relatively high-speed. Or, at least, faster than average. The issue isn't really that SOL's stats suggest that she's not a high-speed wrestler so much as, judging by her stats, she's not as fast as your character. Perhaps you have a preconceived notion of "high speed" which is making you unable to reconcile with a character that's slower than your character being described as "fast."

 

That also nails down why it's difficult to write her. I'm trapped at 3K having written basically a squash match because realistically, there's absolutely no reason any of what she has in her moveset (a high-speed, high-risk, high-energy style) should even compare to my worker whose speed stat is higher and whose vitality is higher. Not to say that's not my own fault, but there's nothing in there for me to write a solid match. I can't start making up moves she doesn't do, I can write spots, but how am I supposed to write, "Scion of Light out-speeds Phantasmo and hits a high-risk flying cross body," without my marker going, "Huh?"

 

 

Regardless, this match isn't your typical "Bigger vs. Smaller" match, my wrestler isn't big into the high-risk end of things - he can do them, but has since decided to use his striking ability over the high-risk moves he can perform. He's bigger, yes, but he's fast - it can't be written bigger vs. smaller becuase that's not the match type we're looking at. Theoretically I could write that, but it takes the accurate stats and moveset for me to sit and work it out, and that's just not there.

I've got to echo what these other guys have said: don't feel to confined by the stats. If you want to write a spot, and your opponent's stats don't specifically state that they don't do that (like WC, for example, who never does clotheslines, or Toxxic, who never kicks out of finishers), then just write it. If your match is better, you'll win.

 

It's all about the writing; the stats are merely a guide. I wouldn't try to completely deviate and turn SOL into Annie Eclectic or something, but just try to write the best match possible, and don't worry so much about making sure that all the I's are dotted and all the T's are crossed.

 

- Dub Cee

[muzz 0]

That also nails down why it's difficult to write her. I'm trapped at 3K having written basically a squash match because realistically, there's absolutely no reason any of what she has in her moveset (a high-speed, high-risk, high-energy style) should even compare to my worker whose speed stat is higher and whose vitality is higher.

 

This is pretty ridiculous. I went my whole career putting over my opponent in a match, even more so than myself. It doesn't matter if their speed stat is 4 while mine is 6, they're just a rough guideline on how to write the character, and their high flying moves will have just as much impact as mine. Of course, there's a slight difference between New Guy with speed stat 8, and Wildchild with speed stat 8.

 

Someone people have had vitality 3, and it shouldn't matter if you're writing an Iron Man Ultra Canadian No Holds Barred Deathmatch against them, you don't just say, "Well, his vitality is 3, so he should be dead at about the 5 minute mark."

[Toxxic 0]

I'd just like to chip in and say that I have now relaxed my 'no finisher kickouts' rule to being something that only happens VERY VERY VERY RARELY, because I finally realised that it will have to happen occasionally just to make a better match, but as it only happens very rarely it will have the desired 'oh my God' effect.

 

Also, I want to see an Iron Man Ultra Canadian No Holds Barred Deathmatch. Like, now.

[The Amazing Rando 0]

That also nails down why it's difficult to write her. I'm trapped at 3K having written basically a squash match because realistically, there's absolutely no reason any of what she has in her moveset (a high-speed, high-risk, high-energy style) should even compare to my worker whose speed stat is higher and whose vitality is higher. Not to say that's not my own fault, but there's nothing in there for me to write a solid match. I can't start making up moves she doesn't do, I can write spots, but how am I supposed to write, "Scion of Light out-speeds Phantasmo and hits a high-risk flying cross body," without my marker going, "Huh?"

 

 

Regardless of what anyone's stats are, even the fastest and strongest of people can still be out-manuevered by a slower and weaker one, though usually in this fed a person chooses power over speed or vice-versa depending upon what style they are choosing to wrestle as.

 

For instance, my character and your character are fairly equal, except your speed is one more than mine (where my extra point goes to charisma) ... but if we were to go at it, Clark would probably be seen as having the advantage due to being a veteran (as Muzz pointed out above with his newb/WC statement). Also, Clark has been written to be able to take one hell of a crazy beating and keep getting up no matter what, and sometimes pushing himself farther than one might normally do.

 

 

If you do write a "squash", always try to write it with your character taking the beating, but then somehow coming back and getting lucky for a victory. Also, using a WWE reference in the cash of speed, Rey Rey might be much faster than Eddie, but there are going to be times when Eddie out-speeds Rey, because you can't dodge EVERYTHING, no matter who you are. You will always get caught. The secret is that while Phantasmo might hit SOL with 5 fast moves that are weaker in power, SOL might "get lucky" and hit one big one that takes just as much out of Phantasmo. Also, if Phantasmo (or any cruiserweight) spends the whole match trying to out-run an opponent, eventually he (or she, or whatever) will lose that speed. It doesn't matter how much endurance you have, you won't be running rings around your opponent late in a match unless they've been running just as hard and as fast.

 

We've all watched big and small wrestling matches -- 3 minute squashes and 60 minute broadways...there is a certain bit of logic that goes out of the window and stays out, even regards to writing these matches, because when we read these, we visualize them, and you can sort of tell in your mind when something doesn't feel right. SOL can be a believable threat against anyone, even at the 130 pound mark...you just have to watch what you are doing. HELL, the EASIEST thing to do is to make the opponent underestimate her given her size, and then have her get the early advantage because of it. It's a cliched and slightly heelish type of move, but if you put any 250 pounder against someone half their size they are probably going to feel like it's going to be a very easy fight and will take that smaller person lightly. It might not lead to her pulling out an upset over the bigger, stronger, and faster Ultimo Phantasmo, but she isn't made to look like a completely worthless piece of crap. I mean, she can't be completely worthless as she's fought her way to the SWF!!

[Secret Agent 0]

I'd just like to chip in and say that I have now relaxed my 'no finisher kickouts' rule to being something that only happens VERY VERY VERY RARELY, because I finally realised that it will have to happen occasionally just to make a better match, but as it only happens very rarely it will have the desired 'oh my God' effect.

 

Also, I want to see an Iron Man Ultra Canadian No Holds Barred Deathmatch. Like, now.

 

Thats what I was trying to tell you two years ago!

[Toxxic 0]

Yeah, but Thoth can eat a bag of dicks.

 

(no, but seriously, I'm maintaining my position on this - it is useful for Toxxic to at least have the POTENTIAL to maybe sometimes kick out of a weak finisher now, because he's currently a face and therefore needs to take more of a shitkicking for most matches to work. When I faced you Toxx was very much built as the arrogant heel whom you just could NOT lay a telling blow on, rather than hitting a finisher and then him kicking out. Everyone's inability to nail him was one of the reasons he was so infuriating - I felt it would work better that when someone finally DID get it would be it; BANG!, 3 count, end of match - look, he's fallible after all!).

[King Cucaracha 0]

One question.

 

Do markers have the stats to hand while they mark matches? Do they read them whatsoever before marking either? I never take the numbers all that seriously myself, I just wonder if they make a difference at all to whoever's marking or not.

[Guest Divefire]

Well I can’t answer for the current regime, but back in the day I had a broad idea of who did what and so forth, but I never had the stats to hand when I marked. The stats are really there as a writing aid, on the grounds that you’d like your character to be well represented when they’re used, and also because writing against a cardboard cut out isn’t all that much fun.

 

They really are there to aid in the better writing of matches, to give ideas, push forth concepts and help in correct handing and representation. Of course no one can force people to write stats in a certain way, and there would be little fun in that, but personally speaking I’ve never been a fan of stats that effectively say, if you wrestle my character, you’re dead because he eats people, and is a god of all things (insert evil laughter here). But that’s me as a creative (well on some days) writer speaking.

 

As a maker one of the things I look for is if both characters are treated with respect (ie, no one is killed) which is ironic considering some of the things that have gone down in my career. But usually that shows some one has taken on board peoples stats and written from there. Otherwise it’s back on that mythical “What makes a good match” thing.

[janusd 0]

One question.

 

Do markers have the stats to hand while they mark matches? Do they read them whatsoever before marking either? I never take the numbers all that seriously myself, I just wonder if they make a difference at all to whoever's marking or not.

 

Only time I ever referenced the stats during my marking tenure was about moves I didn't recognise, not the numbers. I assume most people in general have some sort of grip on how to write their opposition when it comes to their physique... if not, the opposition usually complains afterwards, heh.

[Kaertos 0]

I looked at the stats when I was assigned to mark a match if there was a wrestler I was unfamiliar with. Mostly, I just assumed people here did their homework and wrote other characters right. On the rare occasion that two matches just did not match up in terms of what a character was doing (One match has Wrestler A as a powerhouse submission guy while the other has Wrestker A as a high-flying striker) I'd look up the stats to see who had the better take on the character.

 

As for when I wrote, I just used the JMS (writer for Babylon 5) theory* and assumed that everyone was just as fast or strong as I needed them to be to tell the story I wanted to tell.

 

I hope that helps.

 

*Theory states: "How fast does the starfighter go? It moves at the speed of the plot."

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

6 speed is the greatest speed of all.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

... As for when I wrote, I just used the JMS (writer for Babylon 5) theory* and assumed that everyone was just as fast or strong as I needed them to be to tell the story I wanted to tell.

 

I hope that helps.

 

*Theory states: "How fast does the starfighter go? It moves at the speed of the plot."

I think it was King (may have been Taamo) who said something like that to me a few years back, and it's the best advice I've ever received as a writer: the ramp is exactly as long, the cage is exactly as wide, the ladder is exactly as high as it needs to be for your spot to work.

[Ace309 0]

King. And then I stole it.

[Bruce Blank 0]

Like any good heel would

[Guest A Silent Presence]

Thank you for the advice. I'm just drab in terms of how I write, I like to write to the detail because as I thought, stats were what you wanted your character to be represented as to the detail. I emphasized that too much, and I realize that I let that guide the way I wanted a match written far too much.

 

As far as I know, this advice helped me quite a bit. Thank you.