Gay Priests

[Guest Vern Gagne]

A Priest isn't supposed to be gay, Priests aren't supposed to be strait, Priest aren't supposed to molest boys, and Priest aren't supposed to have AIDS. Priest are supposed to be a Priest. It's a sacred vow and seeing so many of them break a sacred vow is sickening.

[Guest gthureson]

In the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church saw a difference between the parish priest and the Bishops, Cardinals and more political positions.

 

The parish priest would never become Pope.  He would never be a Bishop.   It was a position that men held because they honestly wanted to preach the world and be servants of the Church.   And the Church realized that it would be a good idea to let these men marry, and have families.  Because then their sons would be brought up believing the same things, and you would have somebody to replace their father as a parish priest.   If you didn't allow them to marry, you would have a hard time finding men willing to devote that kind of service to the church.

 

The political positions were supposed to be celibate, though that was usually a joke.   There was a Borgia dynasty of Popes, son replacing father.   It was not a sacred vow, but a position of power that the second sons of nobility went after.   If you could not have the temporal power of rulership, have the spiritual power of the church.

 

The point of this tangent?  The idea of what that sacred vow and how it is implemented has changed with the times.   The Catholic Church, on the other hand, has become increasingly rigid in its dogma over the centuries.  The older a system gets, the more resistant to change it gets.  And the system of the Vatican is old indeed.

 

And they have trouble attracting priests in the modern age.  When you are desperate for men to become priests, likely, you look past any faults you might see early on, and hope that 'their faith' will see them through any temptations they might encounter.

 

This is not a new problem within the Catholic Church.  It only sounds new because the hold of religon erodes with each passing year.   The same thing was likely happening three centuries ago, but no one would talk about it or mention it, because it would either not be believed or the Church held too much temporal power in politics.  To accuse a priest or a clergyman of such a thing could ruin the accuser, not the priest.

 

With the advent of mass media, and the trend towards tabloid journalism, the reporting of such things is widespread.  It makes for a good, juicy story.  But it is nothing new.

[Guest areacode212]

A Priest isn't supposed to be gay, Priests aren't supposed to be strait

WTF? Priests are human beings, they don't automatically turn into emotionless automatons the moment they take their vows. Vow or no vow, they get horny just like any other. This doesn't excuse molestation at all, but to say that they're not supposed to be gay or "strait" is pretty ridiculous. Sexual orientation & urges are a part of human nature, whether or not those urges are acted upon.

[Guest Frank Zappa Mask]

Vern, let's be honest.  It really seems from the tone of your post that you seem to have a problem with gay people, and the whole idea of being gay.  Please tell me I'm wrong....

[Guest Vyce]

I really don't care what a priest is.  They can be gay or straight.

 

Just as long as they live true to their beliefs, and don't do something like....oh, I don't know, touch an altar boy....then I'm cool with them.

[Guest DrTom]

"A Priest isn't supposed to be gay, Priests aren't supposed to be strait, Priest aren't supposed to molest boys, and Priest aren't supposed to have AIDS. Priest are supposed to be a Priest. It's a sacred vow and seeing so many of them break a sacred vow is sickening."

 

Show me in the vows of a priest where it says they have to be straight.  Or be forever free from diseases that can be caught far outside of the sexual arena.  

 

I agree that they shouldn't molest boys, and those who do should have the books thrown at them appropriately.

 

It would be a lot easier if the Catholic church (I'm presuming that's the sect you're referring to here, so correct me if I'm wrong) allowed their priests to marry and lead more normal lives.  While they're servants of the Church, they're also human beings with the same basic needs and wants as everyone else.

 

I'll stop before we get into the issue of female priests, and how religion has been a sexist, patriarchal institution for ages.

[Guest The Metal Maniac]

Dr. Tom, I would assume that a Priest would have to follow what it says in the Bible. And it does say in the Bible, somewhere in the Old Testament I believe, that God hates gay people.

 

Of course, not in those exact words. It's more along the lines of "No man is to have sexual encounters with another man. God hates that."

 

Now, I don't agree with that myself, because I figure it's none of my business what someone's orentation is, but I just thought I'd point that out because that always struck me as an odd thing to be in the Bible.

[Guest areacode212]

About a year ago, 20/20 did a pretty interesting story on gay priests & priests with AIDS. Here's the link to a transcript of the segment:

 

http://abcnews.go.com/section....re.html

[Guest mykatissatan]

I have nothing against gay people, or gay priests for that matter, but I was under the impression of the God hates gays junk.  But hey, not my thing but its theirs and I respect that.  Just dont touch me.  And if they were allowed to become priests then it cant be that big of a deal.

[Guest mykatissatan]

I have nothing against gay people, or gay priests for that matter, but I was under the impression of the God hates gays junk.  But hey, not my thing but its theirs and I respect that.  Just dont touch me.  And if they were allowed to become priests then it cant be that big of a deal.

[Guest Choken One]

The whole God Hate Gays is just a made up story that was created in a fake book.

[Guest J*ingus]

Watch it Choken, they get ornery when you bring that argument up.

[Guest Choken One]

Yes, People get offened when THEIR religion gets attacked but not when others do.

[Guest KoR Fungus]

Hehe, Choken certainly gets straight to the point in his posts.  I agree though, nowadays it seems like the main point of religion for some people is just to use the Bible to condemn other people's lifestyles.  Whether the original writers of the Bible 3000 years ago or whenever were homophobic should have no influence on how we live our lives today.  Of course, since some people think that the Bible, even the contradictory parts, are the Word of God (~!), it's hard to argue against so-called absolute truth.  Alas, as long as there's Christianity, there'll be homophobia.

[Guest Choken One]

Exactly, My viewpoint of life is this

 

God Exists but The bible is a connocation of series of man's perceptions.

[Guest ScottEW]

Try living in Boston where the Catholic Church is quite possibly the most revered institution outside of the Red Sox...Priest molestation cases are all over the front pages up here and it's all they talk about...Personally I think if priests were allowed to marry, it'd make life a whole lot easier...Take that from a guy who was brought up Catholic and graduated from a Catholic college...

[Guest DrTom]

"Personally I think if priests were allowed to marry, it'd make life a whole lot easier..."

 

Absolutely.  Priests should be allowed to marry and live normal lives, or at least as normal as possible.  It's all well and good to say that the Apostles were all single men, but if they existed, that was 2000 years ago.  Times have changed, and the inflexibility of religion is one of the things that holds it back.

[Guest areacode212]

Yup, I agree they should be allowed to marry. Or at least have some kind of relationships, to be more general (for gay priests).

[Guest gthureson]

Yes, People get offened when THEIR religion gets attacked but not when others do.

A cult is a religion you don't believe in.

A religion is a cult you do believe in.

[Guest Some Guy]

I think that the molestation is a result of the sexually oppresive job that being a priest is.  But they choose the job and they should be punished severly if they molest kids.  

I live in the Boston area and I find the Father Geigon (sp?) situation to be disgusting.  He should go to jail and Cardinal Law should resign.  

As far as being gay or straight goes, who cares?  Just keep it to yourself and don't rub your orientation into others faces.  And don't try to disrupt the St. Patrick's Day parade every year.

[Guest Crazy Dan]

First, let me just say that molestation of children is very wrong, and if you are convicted of it, then you should have the book thrown at you, no matter what job or postion you hold in life.  It's just plain wrong and immoral.

 

Now on the topic of gay priests and such.  Who cares what sexual orientation you are.  If someone has found God, so to speak, and wants to become a priest then more power to them.  I think, with some of the scientific evidence pointing this out, that being gay might be caused by a condition in the brain, and hence people who are gay, probably aren't choosing to be gay, so I can't fault someone for something they have no control over.  Chances are they probably should have been born the opposite sex, but that is a whole different issue all together.

 

If a gay man wants to be a priest, and he leads a good life, doesn't molest children and such, then we shouldn't have a problem.  Now the Bible says that God hates all gays, and such(I don't read the Bible, so I am just going by what I have heard from other posts and other people).  But also remeber that the Bible was written when science wasn't really that advanced.  It was written in a time when everyone thought that the earth was flat, the earth was the center of the universe, when the way you were cured from illness was through a good bleeding, and many other examples of barbarinism.  So the Bible was written based on beliefs of the time, many of which  can't possibly be applied to modern day society, it just doens't fit in.  

 

Yet, we still have people who follow the Bible almost word for word, in many cases.  I think that there are some very good points made in the Bible, as well as some very good teachings made by Jesus, like love they fellow man, etc.  And if a Gay priest is able to teach these points to many others, then more power to them.  I think people need to become more confident in their own sexuality, and they would relize that if you aren't gay, you aren't going to become gay, nothing will change that.  I know I am never going to be gay, so I don't have any problem with gay people.  And I don't care if a gay person wants to become a priest, I think there are more pressing issues to deal with, personally.  Of course I could be wrong, or you might disagree with me, so let me know either way.

[Guest J*ingus]

A lot of the issue comes from the Bible declaring that a man having relations with another man is "an abomination".  This however is a slight mistranslation, as the original word isn't that harsh; "annoying to God" would be more accurate.  By comparison, eating silverfish was also deemed to be "an abomination".  

 

Does anyone know why the Catholic church came up with the celibacy rule in the first place?

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

The Bible is full of contradictions, obscurities, and unclear messages. In many ways this is what makes it an attractive religion to people, as it leaves plenty for the individual person to interpret in their own way, whereas a religion like Islam is much more black and white in terms of the words of its holy books. Of course, these contradictions are what lead to whacked out fanatics, as they take everything the Bible says literaly, even though that's practically impossible.

[Guest Some Guy]

A lot of the issue comes from the Bible declaring that a man having relations with another man is "an abomination".  

 

From my understanding of the Bible and reading that line, God doesn't ahve a problem with gay people, just the gay sexual relations.  You can be Gay, but you can't act on it because god doesn't like it and it would be premarital sex, which is also frowned upon by the almighty.  

 

Verne's original post says, "A Priest isn't supposed to be gay, Priests aren't supposed to be strait, Priest aren't supposed to molest boys, and Priest aren't supposed to have AIDS. Priest are supposed to be a Priest. It's a sacred vow and seeing so many of them break a sacred vow is sickening."

 

From reading that I see nothing offensive or anti-gay, it is his opinion and the opinion of most people.

[Guest Risk]

Well, this post is going to turn into a flame war...so lets NOT use opinions and just point out FACTS.  That way less people will turn into raving lunatics thirsty for a scrapegoat.

 

Am I a Christian?  Yes.  But I would NEVER become a Catholic.

 

Do I dislike Catholisism?  Yes.

 

Why?  Because I'm Native American and they used Portuguel and Spain, both Catholic states at the time, to either force Natives to convert or kill them.

 

Do I support Protestants?  Yes

 

What denomination am I?  I just call myself a Christian.

 

Does the Bible say homosexuality is wrong?  Yes, I've seen it in Leviticus and I think Paul says something about it to.

 

Is it wrong to hate homosexuals?  Yes, hate the sin, not the sinner.  We ALL have sin and all sin is equal in the eyes of God.  As JC said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

 

What are your thoughts on the afterlife?  I think most of what we think of as the afterlife was borrowed from the pagan Greek religion.  I BELIEVE we will ALL be brought back and judged.  I think the good will receive eternal life and the evil will be cast into oblivion.  I don't believe in eternal punishment because God is merciful, he PROTECTED the first killer(Cain).

 

Who are Priests supposed to be?  The Bible says ALL Christians are Priests.  An intermediary between God and man.

 

 

Hope that helps.

[Guest DrTom]

"Does anyone know why the Catholic church came up with the celibacy rule in the first place?"

 

Because the Church has long been into the behavioral engineering of its subjects, particularly those who work for it directly.  In fact, you could make a good case that religion is just behavioral engineering with fancy window dressing and not get arguments from quite a few people.

[Guest gthureson]

"Does anyone know why the Catholic church came up with the celibacy rule in the first place?"

 

Because they were a cult to begin with.  And just like most other cults, they were fanatics and martyrs who were into emulation and taking things quite literally.

 

There is no direct mention of Christ being married or having sex.  None of the Apostles were married (wait...I think one was, but he left his wife to go crusing around Palestine with JC), therefore, the new Apostles..the priests..shouldn't marry.

 

Then it just moves into the area of tradition, canon and dogma.   Parish priests were allowed to marry for a large part of the Middle Ages, for purely functional reasons (recruiting and replacing old priests,mainly).  Well, allowed is probably too strong a word.   The Church looked the other way.   That was cracked down upon in the latter part of the MA though.

 

The main problem with the Catholic Church is that for the last few hundred years (since the Protestant Reformation, really), it has carried its dogma as its sword and shield, unwilling to accept new ideas with any sort of readiness.   Of course forgetting that they used to hold councils all the time to change the rules and decide what was in the Bible and what was not while they were the only game in town.

 

But then Islam swept through the Middle East.   The Protestant Reformation.   The Industrial Revolution and the advent of the twentieth century and mass communication of ideas cemented ideas that they had to be unwavering, likely because it seemed to them that were constantly under attack.   A siege mentality, if you will.   Not realizing that the harder you grip things, the easier they slip through your fingers.

 

Whoah.  I'm just going off on all sorts of tangents.  I'll stop now.

[Guest RetroRob215]

Since we are talking about religion, I'll throw in my 2 cents.

 

I think organized religion is for people who are too lazy to make there own judgments on life, the afterlife and a higher power.  When you believe in an organized religion, you are EXPECTED to fully believe in it.  I can't understand how people can agree 100% with everything Christianity, or any other religion believes in.  I think it is kind of pathetic when people have to look to a 3,000 year old book in order to form their beliefs.  Forget the bible, make your own decisions based on what you want to believe in, not what has been shoved down your throat for your whole life.  If you HAVE read (or understand) the bible and really do feel 100% behind it, more power to you.  IMO, the bible and hell are nothing more than scare tactics to keep the followers in line, but then again what do I know, I don't even believe in God...

[Guest Vern Gagne]

The point of the post wasn't to knock gay people. I don't understand why people are gay,  and I really don't care if they are.The post title was all wrong. I was more upset about priests molesting boys and one's who got Aids.

 

When I wrote priests aren't supposed to be gay or strait I meant they aren't suppose to have sexual relations with anyone. If they feel the need to have relations with a man or woman than they should leave the priesthood. Whether or not you think priest should be allowed to marry isn't really the point. Today a Priest takes a vow of celibacy. That doesn't mean they don't have emotions, like everyone else but for them it should be a case of look but don't touch.

[Guest Loss4Words]

It's funny how homosexuality has been so effectively singled out as one of the sins listed in the Bible and it's usually because those who reference it are either homophobic or find it personally disgusting. If I'm living a life of sin, so are women who get hair cuts. If I'm living a life of sin, so are those who eat pork. If I'm living a life of sin, it's *NO WORSE* than premarital sex. I won't say "all" to avoid generalizing, but most people I know who criticize homosexuality have sexual relations outside of marriage all the time. As has already been mentioned, by Biblical standards, sin isn't measured. A bad deed is a bad deed. So if you ate too much at Thanksgiving dinner and committed gluttony, you might as well have had a penis in your mouth because in God's eyes, it's all the same.

 

Christians who condemn gays really bother me. When Jesus was on Earth, he spent most of his time with those that society deemed inappropriate. I think Christianity actually can be a beautiful thing, but there are some issues I have with it. I've grown up in a Southern Baptist household, so I've obviously had severely dated ideals and principles drilled into me since childhood. Religion is very effective at creating guilt. Guilt is the weapon of choice, at least for Baptists.