Angle vs. Joe

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

There is no doubt that this is the biggest match in the 4.5 year history of TNA....

 

And as such I think a nice week and a half discussion of the buildup/bout/aftermath is in order.

 

...

 

Before I continue I do want to say this....

 

I believe (as a wrestling fan for the last 20 years) that Angle vs. Joe is a bigger, better match than anything that WWE can main event Mania with next year outside of Austin/Hogan or a Rock return

 

Call me crazy but when Cena/HHH II or whatever is main eventing Mania in Detroit...yeah...

 

...

 

For my part...I think the buildup has been excellent. Joe and Angle have fought through every important event (including Bound For Glory) making their fight seem that much more important.

 

Also...TNA has pretty much made sure that Angle hasn't been the least bit tarnished by his move down from the E to TNA. People still see him as the big star.

 

And even though TNA had dropped the ball with Joe so that they could blow off their JJ/Sting storyline...Angles arrival made Joe into as much...if not more of a top player than he was before.

 

...

 

I know that there are a lot of TNA haters on this board. And TNA does give you a lot of reason to question/hate their ideals....

 

...

 

But this is Samoa Joe vs. Kurt Angle.

 

...

 

So?

[Guest Coffey]

I don't know. I want to see the match, but it's not because of the build-up, it's because of the curiosity factor. I'm curious how it will be booked. I'm curious how good Angle still is. I'm curious if they can pull off a good match. I didn't like Angle in ECW AT ALL. I don't want to see him work like that anymore...but I know of and have seen great things of his in the past. Same with Samoa Joe. I don't like how he's booked in meaningless squash matches but I know he can bring it when given time and a good opponent.

 

Also, from reading the spoilers,

I don't want to see Samoa Joe use the Ankle Lock on Angle. I HATE when wrestlers use their opponents moves.

 

I like to think it'll be a good match that pulls in a lot of viewers but I just don't think enough people watch TNA, care about TNA or even know about TNA. Even less would know who Samoa Joe is and I'm sure a lot of people don't even know TNA got Kurt Angle. TNA has done an AWFUL job promoting this. Hell, promoting themselves in general. On TV, we've seen a couple pull-aparts and a stiff headbutt. Throw in an Olympic Slam and a Choke Out, and that's all we've really got. I don't think it's great build-up at all, I just think the internet is high on it because they know the men are capable of pulling off a great match. It's kinda like Kobashi/Joe in ROH...and that match, quality wise, definitely delivered. Outside of the smart fans, though, no one gives a shit.

 

I think the worst thing about all the build-up so far has been Angle's promos. Him sucking up to the fans and talking about quitting WWE to come wrestle for the best talent in the world. It's not believable. Even die-hard TNA fans don't buy that shit.

 

There is no doubt that this is the biggest match in the 4.5 year history of TNA.

I don't know, I think that's up for debate. I think it depends on who you ask. I'm sure Jarrett/Raven, the first time around, was a big deal to a lot of people. I'm sure some people thought Sting's comeback was a big deal too. I still think it's all about name value as it pertains to wrestling. Draw viewers in with someone that they know and make them stick around and watch and grow with the ones they don't. Then, eventually, the ones they don't know are the ones they're tuning in for.

 

I believe that Angle vs. Joe is a bigger, better match than anything that WWE can main event Mania with next year...

Quality wise, as in actual workrate, I agree. Name wise, which you kinda hinted at, it's nowhere close. WWE just has too wide an audience. People know about Wrestlemania.

 

I'm just not going to get my hopes up. There's too many things that could go wrong. I'll watch it. I'll pay to see it...but I'm an internet fan. I'm worried about a bad, Russo-influenced ending. I'm worried about Angle's status. Like I said, it's more a curiosity factor for me right now. Honestly, I don't even know who is supposed to be the face. Is Angle the defacto face because he just debuted? Joe really hasn't done anything to make me think he's a heel. I mean, he stole the NWA title...but that was from Jarrett, the top heel in the company. So, are they both face?

[eirejmcmahon 0]

So?

 

The match will be off-the-charts, no-doubt, but I'm disappointed that it's come so soon.

 

Granted, there are good reasons for getting all-you-can out of Angle ASAP (for starters, he might go and die or cripple himself before any long angle could pay off) but I had visions of Joe and Angle tearing through the roster till they eventually came head to head for the gold whereas they've pretty much just gone at each other from day one.

 

The build, such as its been, has been fine but I'm not getting the epic vibe from it that I feel I should.

 

Truth to tell, Joe/Steiner felt bigger in some ways!

[TNABaddboi 0]

I agree that this is TNA's biggest money-match. With that in mind though, part of me wishes they let this main event BFGIII or at least a non-Orlando PPV. It'll pop a decent buyrate I think, but I think they are blowing an opportunity to draw a nice gate too. Imagine this headlining a PPV in Pittsburgh? That said, I think the build up has been OK so far. I agree that they did a much better job making a match that we had no right being interested in (Steiner/Joe) at least as interesting as this. I think the interest in this has much more to do with what the guys can do than anything TNA has done. The first angle was fantastic, but by repeating three times, they kind of dimished its effect. I actually don't know if I'm going to get this PPV. I wanna see the match no doubt (and AMW vs LAX), but right now, they haven't convinced me that I wanna pay $30 for it now instead of $20 for it on DVD. If they turned their DVDs around faster, I think it'd be leaning that way. We'll see if they can sell me tonight and next week...

[Wyld Cannon 0]

I think it should have been saved for prime time.

 

I don't watch TNA, is Angle a face? Is Joe a heel?

 

Either way, i think its just blowing a money feud too early, no matter how good it is. I just don't think it'll draw the money it potentially could.

[razazteca 0]

Who really cares which one is the good guy and which one is the bad guy? Why can't it be as simple as Kurt Angle going out to prove that he is the best in the business? It's like the old wild west where gun slingers would have shoot outs at high noon. Kurt Angle had nothing left to prove in WWE-land so he now walks the earth searching for the perfect opponet. Now that he is in TNA who else would be the perfect opponet other than the Submission Somoan Machine if anybody can work a match to hide Kurt Angles weakness's it is Joe.

[TNABaddboi 0]

I don't watch TNA, is Angle a face? Is Joe a heel?

 

They haven't really established either. Joe was positioned as a face for the past two months, and Angle did attack him unprovoked. But Angle's viewed as a superstar by TNA's fans, so he gets the biggest pop of whatever show he's on. By the same token though, Angle was cutting his promo after BFG and the fans chanted Joe's Gonna Kill You at him. In short, no one knows. I don't even think TNA knows. This is probably going to be the most fasinating fan reaction match since Goldberg/Lesnar, though obviously for totally different reasons.

[Steviekick 0]

It seems like a copout by having the match this early. They really should have kept them seperate as long as possible.

[Aero 0]

Here's the question: Who wins? It seems stupid to have Angle lose his first really big match in TNA, but Joe's undefeated streak is still going... Angle doesn't need the rub of beating Joe because he's already a superstar. I see TNA giving Angle the win, because logically, who else could they have lined up to finally beat Joe?

[razazteca 0]

Wrestlemania 13 finish with double turn, ref bump, town hall meeting the next Impact, a rematch on Impact that goes to a time limit draw, then a gimmick match at the PPV with a run in by Kurt Angles next opponet. And Joe's 1st loss belongs to either AJ or Daniels when they fight for the NWA Heavyweight title at the main event to BFG next year.

[Guest Coffey]

If AJ or Daniels is Joe's first loss, I'll never watch TNA again.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

So?

 

The match will be off-the-charts, no-doubt, but I'm disappointed that it's come so soon.

 

Granted, there are good reasons for getting all-you-can out of Angle ASAP (for starters, he might go and die or cripple himself before any long angle could pay off) but I had visions of Joe and Angle tearing through the roster till they eventually came head to head for the gold whereas they've pretty much just gone at each other from day one.

 

The build, such as its been, has been fine but I'm not getting the epic vibe from it that I feel I should.

 

Truth to tell, Joe/Steiner felt bigger in some ways!

 

 

I actually agree with everything that you've said here.

 

First and foremost...Joe vs. Steiner DID feel bigger...which I suppose is a credit to the two guys...

 

But that was at a time that Joe was still being pushed as the "best inthe world" and Steiner was his test.

 

The fact that Angle/Joe lacks the same kind of hype or whatever that Joe/Steiner had is COMPLETELY TNA's fault for making Joe feel like an afterthought for the last few months.

 

...

 

That being said...

 

As soon as he steps in the ring with Angle...I think he gets all of that back.

 

Part of the excitement is obviously that these may be the best 2 North American wrestlers in the last several years.

 

And I have no doubt that they will deliver...

 

Whats important, IMO, is that when its over people look at Joe as being on Angle's level. I think that Joe is better than Angle...but a lot of people who watch probably dont. If when the match is over...people look at Joe like he's as good as Angle...the match is a success (again IMO) no matter the result.

[Myxamatosis 0]

Joe v Angle gets me excited but I feel Angle matches up better with someone like Styles or Sabin. The roles in those matches would be clearly defined for the fans to pick up on.

 

His best matches in the 'E were against guys who could bump well off of his suplexes (like Benoit, Edge, Mysterio) and get sympathy heat. Joe isn't getting sympathy heat from that crowd; they only see him as a killer.

[EricMM 0]

Joe can bump off of suplexes like a champ...

[luke-o 0]

Im going to chime in with these 2 cents (or 2 pence since im english?)

 

I can see Joe winning this match. Not only establishing him as the best wrestler in this buisness, but also can intensify the fued.

 

I can see Joe winning, then moving on and have another match down the line, only to have angle win the 2nd match to tie the scores. Have one of them win the title and then have the rubber match to end the fued (cause TNA love them). Then its up to TNA to decide who wins the fued.

 

Joe winning this match would be the best thing for this fued. It can fuel Angles desire to win and it would also help build on the fact that TNA is not just a bush league company.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I could see Angle willingly jobbing to Joe, if all he says is true about wanting to help TNA get built up, etc.

 

Maybe Joe wins, but barely. Joe beating Angle would cement him as a true superstar in pro-wrestling, and then Angle can always get a win back in a re-match. I mean, this is a matchup they could potentially run on one or two more PPVs and keep it fresh.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I could see Angle winning by DQ when Joe loses it after nt being able to put Angle away.

[luke-o 0]

I could see Angle willingly jobbing to Joe, if all he says is true about wanting to help TNA get built up, etc.

 

Maybe Joe wins, but barely. Joe beating Angle would cement him as a true superstar in pro-wrestling, and then Angle can always get a win back in a re-match. I mean, this is a matchup they could potentially run on one or two more PPVs and keep it fresh.

 

Thats pretty much what i said, but worded much better. Thanks.

[Mystery Eskimo 0]

I'm just hoping for TNA's sake that they keep Russo away from this and let Joe and Angle just go out and have a proper match. A DQ ending would be fine to further the feud (Joe refusing to release the choke while Angle is in the ropes, for instance), I just dont want to see any run ins, ridiculous ref bumps etc.

[razazteca 0]

I could see Angle winning by DQ when Joe loses it after nt being able to put Angle away.

Can it be a MMA ref stops the match too early finish with Ken Shamrock as the special guest ref?

[Guest Bammey]

This is an epic match. I doubt it will end with one guy going clean over the other. Definatley something that leads to a rematch at the Dec. PPV. Unless their planning on having Angle/Joe Main Event which seems likely.

[luke-o 0]

Even if this does headline, i can see this fued going on for a couple of months, maybe having the rubber match ending at BFGIII

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Maybe Joe wins, but barely. Joe beating Angle would cement him as a true superstar in pro-wrestling, and then Angle can always get a win back in a re-match. I mean, this is a matchup they could potentially run on one or two more PPVs and keep it fresh.

I would prefer this finish or, failing that, Joe losing by DQ when he snaps and refuses to let go of the choke. Joe losing cleanly would further establish the idea that TNA wrestlers are inferior to WWE wrestlers, even if it is a top name like Angle. Joe winning, even if it is a close call, at least establishes right off the bat that TNA's top wrestler is better than one of WWE's top wrestlers. Angle doesn't need to win right away, but Joe does and TNA needs Joe to win right away. Angle is established to the mainstream already. Joe isn't and neither is TNA, and Joe winning would be a big boost. If Joe loses by DQ for not letting go of the choke, they still push the idea that Joe choked out Kurt Angle. They could also push Joe as this monster who endangered the life of the guy TNA are hoping to help take them to the next level. This could get Joe over big as a heel and further cement Angle as a babyface, which can the play into their rematch down the line with Angle going for revenge against the man who tried to end his career.

[tigeraid 0]

I agree in general, I hope this match, while good, is not the mind-blowing 5-star match of the century--yet. I hope this match ends in a DQ, a no contest, or at least a somewhat undeceive finish, to set up for a more dramatic match. I think this is just too soon and is really blowing the wad early for TNA. Had it been at BFG, maybe--but not now.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

Angle is winning at Genesis.

 

Also, I think he's going to have trouble with the Angle Slams.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

What kind of trouble?

 

He's already his Joe with a high one the first time they brawled.

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

If Angle goes over they should keep them separated until one of them (Joe) wins the belt. THEN have the rematch. Insert a few guys (Abyss ot Christian) for Joe to go over to regain ground then beat Sting for the belt. Angle would be the natural challenger, moreso if the Genesis match really delivers.

[Star Ocean 3 0]

Maybe Joe wins, but barely. Joe beating Angle would cement him as a true superstar in pro-wrestling, and then Angle can always get a win back in a re-match. I mean, this is a matchup they could potentially run on one or two more PPVs and keep it fresh.

I would prefer this finish or, failing that, Joe losing by DQ when he snaps and refuses to let go of the choke. Joe losing cleanly would further establish the idea that TNA wrestlers are inferior to WWE wrestlers, even if it is a top name like Angle. Joe winning, even if it is a close call, at least establishes right off the bat that TNA's top wrestler is better than one of WWE's top wrestlers. Angle doesn't need to win right away, but Joe does and TNA needs Joe to win right away. Angle is established to the mainstream already. Joe isn't and neither is TNA, and Joe winning would be a big boost. If Joe loses by DQ for not letting go of the choke, they still push the idea that Joe choked out Kurt Angle. They could also push Joe as this monster who endangered the life of the guy TNA are hoping to help take them to the next level. This could get Joe over big as a heel and further cement Angle as a babyface, which can the play into their rematch down the line with Angle going for revenge against the man who tried to end his career.

 

Angle's not a WWE wrestler anymore.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Maybe Joe wins, but barely. Joe beating Angle would cement him as a true superstar in pro-wrestling, and then Angle can always get a win back in a re-match. I mean, this is a matchup they could potentially run on one or two more PPVs and keep it fresh.

I would prefer this finish or, failing that, Joe losing by DQ when he snaps and refuses to let go of the choke. Joe losing cleanly would further establish the idea that TNA wrestlers are inferior to WWE wrestlers, even if it is a top name like Angle. Joe winning, even if it is a close call, at least establishes right off the bat that TNA's top wrestler is better than one of WWE's top wrestlers. Angle doesn't need to win right away, but Joe does and TNA needs Joe to win right away. Angle is established to the mainstream already. Joe isn't and neither is TNA, and Joe winning would be a big boost. If Joe loses by DQ for not letting go of the choke, they still push the idea that Joe choked out Kurt Angle. They could also push Joe as this monster who endangered the life of the guy TNA are hoping to help take them to the next level. This could get Joe over big as a heel and further cement Angle as a babyface, which can the play into their rematch down the line with Angle going for revenge against the man who tried to end his career.

 

Angle's not a WWE wrestler anymore.

 

You know damn well what he meant. Angle is perceived as a "WWE guy."

[tigeraid 0]

If Angle goes over they should keep them separated until one of them (Joe) wins the belt. THEN have the rematch. Insert a few guys (Abyss ot Christian) for Joe to go over to regain ground then beat Sting for the belt. Angle would be the natural challenger, moreso if the Genesis match really delivers.

 

That would be acceptable too, I guess. I guess I'd just really like the finish to be somewhat awkward or indecisive, so it leaves us with a question of who really beat who.