Guest CoreyLazarus416 Report post Posted June 15, 2002 For the record, I'm Cliff Young NOW. Cliff Young NOW: Okay, where'd you get your source that Slipknot is metal? Cliff Young NOW: I want to know what reliable source you used to determine this MuDvAyNe7211: dude i dont need a source i know it Cliff Young NOW: Really? Explain how MuDvAyNe7211: dude it is the music i like and i know that that is what i classify it as becuz that is what my generation would classify it as MuDvAyNe7211: asl? Cliff Young NOW: Your generation...my generation...is filled with idiots that think Linkin Park is metal and that Nelly is the greatest rapper ever Cliff Young NOW: 16/m/MA MuDvAyNe7211: dude i hate linkin park and nelly i hate rap MuDvAyNe7211: linkin is not metal Cliff Young NOW: Damn straight their not, but neither is Slipknot, Mudvayne, SOAD, Korn, etc. MuDvAyNe7211: what do you classify as metal Cliff Young NOW: Okay, just because a band is heavy, that doesn't make them metal, first off MuDvAyNe7211: what is your definition of metal Cliff Young NOW: Bands I'd call metal? Shadows Fall, Pro-Pain, Suffocation, Nile, Nevermore, Iced Earth, Gwar, Helloween, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Winter's Bane, Black Label Society, old-school Metallica, old-school Megadeth, Slayer, Testament, Tourniquet, Fear Factory, Meshuggah, Beyond The Embrace, old-school Sepultura, Exodus, etc. Cliff Young NOW: Metal has no actually "definition," but there is an easy way to tell if a band is metal or not, and that's by listening to music that truly is metal MuDvAyNe7211: ok i have only heard of Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, MuDvAyNe7211: sry bout dat Cliff Young NOW: Heh... MuDvAyNe7211: Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Black Label Society, old-school Metallica, old-school Megadeth, Slayer Meshuggah MuDvAyNe7211: but that is older heavy metal dude and peole like that but i garauntee by the year 2036 when i am forty years old no one will ever no those bands and heavy metal WILL be Slipknot, Mudvayne, Korn, Disturbed, System Of A Down Cliff Young NOW: No, sorry MuDvAyNe7211: read my profile those are the bands that will be the top heavy metal bands when we are older grown adults i garauntee it Cliff Young NOW: That's what the mainstream media and the American public will think of as metal, much as they think of rock n' roll bands like Poison, Motley Crue, and Ratt as metal today Cliff Young NOW: Only metal band mentioned there was Ozzy Cliff Young NOW: Besides...3 of those bands I mentioned (Shadows Fall, Nile, and Beyond The Embrace) formed in the past 7 years MuDvAyNe7211: right now everyone says that Slipknot is not heavy cuz there still are bands like the ones you listen to but those as you know are old bands and they wont be around forever Slipknot and the other bands wil be there to take their place MuDvAyNe7211: and what do say metal is Cliff Young NOW: Pardon? MuDvAyNe7211: u said just becuz something is heavy that it doesnt mean that they are Metal dude i did not know that there was a difference between heavy and metal i thought they were the same thing Cliff Young NOW: Nope MuDvAyNe7211: ok then what is the difference Cliff Young NOW: Example: The hardcore band The Freeze is undeniably heavy, as is the grindcore band Napalm Death. Neither are metal, though MuDvAyNe7211: and would you classify slipknot, korn, mudvayne as heavy? Cliff Young NOW: Yes, they are definitely heavy. "Heavy" is just an adjective to describe a band that uses heavy distortion in their music Cliff Young NOW: Much like "hard rock" is only considered "hard" because the music was "hard on the ears" MuDvAyNe7211: i always would classify heavy, as lots of guitar sound, large drum sound but not enough to drown out the guitar and a fairly good amount of screaming am i right? Cliff Young NOW: Screaming isn't necessary at all MuDvAyNe7211: well it is a plus Cliff Young NOW: Nevermore uses very little screaming, and are heavier than most of the bands you listen to MuDvAyNe7211: well besides the screaming am i right? Cliff Young NOW: I think they have maybe 2 songs where the vocalist, Warrel Dane, screams at all Cliff Young NOW: Yes, to an extent Cliff Young NOW: It's hard to define the word "heavy" as it comes to music, just as it is hard to define the word "deep" when it comes to poetry/stories MuDvAyNe7211: ok well then i thought the same went for metal i thought that that is what metal was but apparently you beg to differ so what would you say metal is that makes it different to the term heavy Cliff Young NOW: The term heavy can be applied to ANY type of music MuDvAyNe7211: but i want the definition of metal in your terms Cliff Young NOW: There is no set definition, just a matter of rules. The best way to determine whether or not a band is metal is to listen to the music. If it's the same 3-chords repeated over and over again, and the vocalist of the band does nothing but scream and yell out "fuck", and/or the music's tone slows down and goes very slow with an emphasis on the bass as the verse plays (ie. Staind), then the band is more than likely not metal MuDvAyNe7211: dude if you wanna talk about this later i have you on my buddy list but i have to go for a little bit Cliff Young NOW: Okay, see ya later Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Mark4steamboat Report post Posted June 15, 2002 For the record, was that on aol? Because everyone in the metal rooms on aol all have either SOAD or Slipknot in their names. tool, blind melon, and stand(the sn is OLD) are all in my name yet im criticized for not worshipping Slipknot and SOAD. Ugh i hate nu-metalers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest redbaron51 Report post Posted June 15, 2002 Well he's right that Slipknot, SOAD, Korn are Metal, as they fall under that "Nu-Metal" category which basically is water down crap-System of a Down. Positive thing is that he realizes that Linkin Park is shit Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kinetic Report post Posted June 15, 2002 MuDvAyNe7211: but that is older heavy metal dude and peole like that but i garauntee by the year 2036 when i am forty years old no one will ever no those bands and heavy metal WILL be Slipknot, Mudvayne, Korn, Disturbed, System Of A Down Of course he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's six years old. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest redbaron51 Report post Posted June 15, 2002 Well he's right that Slipknot, SOAD, Korn are Metal, as they fall under that "Nu-Metal" category which basically is water down crap-System of a Down. Positive thing is that he realizes that Linkin Park is shit EdIt: My BaD dOuBlE pOsT Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Mark4steamboat Report post Posted June 16, 2002 I dont thin Korn is metal at all. Theyre more of a rap/rock type but some consider rap/rock nu-metal. The whole term "nu-metal" is relatively new to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest evenflowDDT Report post Posted June 16, 2002 MuDvAyNe7211: but that is older heavy metal dude and peole like that but i garauntee by the year 2036 when i am forty years old no one will ever no those bands and heavy metal WILL be Slipknot, Mudvayne, Korn, Disturbed, System Of A Down Of course he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's six years old. Hahahahahahahaha! Good one dude! Oh, TAG! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest saturnmark4life Report post Posted June 16, 2002 Fuck it i still like SOAD. But i hate everything, and everyone, they are associated with. They're still not nu metal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shaved Bear Report post Posted June 16, 2002 well he did have mudvayne in his name, the oly kid I know that listens to them is a spoiled rich kid Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest redbaron51 Report post Posted June 16, 2002 No one knows what nu-metal is, but its in this time period. Maybe ten years down the road we will know what nu-metal was and represent, instead of corporate cash grabbers. System of a Down is nu-metal since their self titled. What you are probably thinking is that "Nu-Metal is all this heavy pop crap thats seen on my MTV". When a band gets says their nu-metal it doesn't mean "I'm on MTV, playing depressing songs to angry 14 year old guys." They call themselves because its suppose to be something different that hasn't been done before, and until more bands play that style it'll get its own category. What are you going to say, System is punk music (I've heard that too many times) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest evenflowDDT Report post Posted June 16, 2002 For the record though, you never DID give him a definition of metal, only some loose information on what metal isn't. Or was that the point? I mean how do you know Meshuggah is metal? Or Metallica is metal? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest PlatypusFool Report post Posted June 16, 2002 Ah fuh... does the classification of music into groups really matter to anyone? The fact of the matter is is that everyone's perception of what is 'metal' will be different. Two people can say they like 'metal', or 'punk' or any other catergory of music, and mean completely different things. No one knows the true definition of the term 'metal', so no one can be correct or incorrect. Just for the record SOAD are awesome, they will be the next Metallica (in the sense that they are around for years and will be constantly popular). Linkin Park are horrendous. Korn are REALLY one dimensional. Mudvayne are decent, subtley inventive (jazz drum beats etc), heavy music. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CoreyLazarus416 Report post Posted June 16, 2002 SOAD will not be the next Metallica. If they last a long time, good, but there are other bands that have lasted a long time and been consistently popular, even more so than Metallica. But, like I said, metal doesn't actually HAVE a definition, just a loose system of rules that can be bent and some even broken. But there has to be a clear line of evolution from a newer style of metal to an older style in order for it to be metal. That's why nu-metal isn't actually metal, since it's based more along the lines of alternative rock. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Report post Posted June 17, 2002 Why do people like arguing over who is what genre, usually in the name of defending their favourite genre? It just seems silly. Can't we all just like everything? EMBRACE THE POP~! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Big McLargeHuge Report post Posted June 17, 2002 No. But I see where you're going. Besides, if it ain't unerground or old...it won't be classified in the true genre. Whether you want to argue what bands are/aren't metal or punk or whatever. Just the way things be. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest evenflowDDT Report post Posted June 17, 2002 Why do people like arguing over who is what genre, usually in the name of defending their favourite genre? It just seems silly. Can't we all just like everything? EMBRACE THE POP~! I agree, I mean really, in the scheme of things, genre doesn't really matter. Hell, if you like a band or group, you like the group. There are, however, cases in my musical taste where I like a style of music and thus a genre, without knowing any specific bands that play that style of music (e.g. jungle), and in this case, lumping bands into a genre will at least give new listeners an idea of what to look for. But other than that, it's pretty much worthless, because Metallica, Backstreet Boys, 2Pac, System of a Down, and The Beatles are all POP anyway, because they're POPular. EMBRACE THE POP~! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest NoCalMike Report post Posted June 17, 2002 The problem with genre defining is that 99% of people who listen to music only listen to what plays on the radio. I mean seriously now, I think SOAD are great and quality music, but would I put them in the same genre as Cannibal Corpse? No. Same goes for every "genre" on the radio. The thing that sucks is that record labels all but own radio stations now, they basically control what bands will be played and not played. Why in the hell do you think bands like Linkin' Park and Adema are played when there are probobaly local bands in every city of America that have 1,000,000 more talent. The frustrating thing is that this trend will continue to happen because radio stations care more about money from advertising than giveing their listeners what they want to hear. I mean shit, in my city, the alternative rock station started playing Eminem, and the fucking hip hop station was playing Jewel. WTF? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Renegade Report post Posted June 17, 2002 well he did have mudvayne in his name, the oly kid I know that listens to them is a spoiled rich kid uh so all of Mudvaynes fans are spoiled rich kids? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest converge241 Report post Posted June 17, 2002 all i got to say Corey is TESTAMENT !! MF TESTAMENT!!! yes! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TheyCallMeMark Report post Posted June 17, 2002 Woah woah woah! I'm going to hand out, right now, the easiest way to tell the difference between metal and heavy music (nu-metal). This may shock and appal you by how frighteningly simple it is. Does the band frequently put guitar solo's into their music? Just ask yourself this. I'm not saying guitar solo's make a band metal, don't get me wrong. But metal bands do use them, and nu-metal bands don't. It's just a good indicator. I'll give some examples. Metal: Metallica - Hammet and Hetfeild's guitar work was their claim to fame. MegaDeth - Mustaine based all of his songs on guitar solos. Slayer - Kerry King always shreds. Judas Priest - The bands gimmick was two lead guitars. Nu-Metal: Korn - I have never heard a real solo. SOAD - Same. Linkin Park - Same. Mudvayne - See SOAD. Of course, there are probably some metal bands than don't use guitar solos, but I haven't heard any. Just thought I'd throw a good way to tell out there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest PlatypusFool Report post Posted June 17, 2002 "But, like I said, metal doesn't actually HAVE a definition, just a loose system of rules that can be bent and some even broken. But there has to be a clear line of evolution from a newer style of metal to an older style in order for it to be metal. That's why nu-metal isn't actually metal, since it's based more along the lines of alternative rock." Alright, so what, exactly, do you class as the 'rules' of 'metal'? And, indeed, what you class as the 'rules' of 'alternative rock'? You are criticising people for labelling music incorrectly when the labelling of music is 100% subjective to an individuals opinion. Not to mention the fact that the labelling of music is pointless anyway... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest converge241 Report post Posted June 17, 2002 Does the band frequently put guitar solo's into their music? hmmm thats an interesting theory you have there. good points. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest redbaron51 Report post Posted June 17, 2002 Nu-Metal is like alternative. No one knows what the hell it is, and it will hardly be remembered for. *realizes i could be flamed, and I do not have a good back up saying* Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Report post Posted June 17, 2002 Can you guys help me? This kid thinks that Limp Bizkit is the best band evar, and thinks people like Pink Floyd and Led Zepplin are just old timer music.He also thinks that Weezer are a bunch of pussies and dont know how to play instuments. I really have nobody to back me up on my arguement of why Nu-Metal sucks. Could you give me some reasons just so I can piss this kid off. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest converge241 Report post Posted June 17, 2002 sorry, I like all the bands you listed, cant help! weezer are a bunch of pussies? wtf???? thats just ridiculous Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shaved Bear Report post Posted June 17, 2002 just say Nu-Metal is a watered down version of real metal Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest goodhelmet Report post Posted June 22, 2002 um.. why do people seem intent on labeling music by a specific genre? can't they just listen to it and decide for themselves if they like it or not? metal, hardcore, thrash, nu-metal, deathcore, blah blah blah...... WHAT THE FUCK!?!?!? listen to it. love it or hate it. who gives a flying fuck if it's metal, r&B, punk, pseudo-punk, nubian thrash, trip hop, hip hop, old school, mor, c&w, emo, frestyle, blahbiddy blah blah blah... music is music. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CoreyLazarus416 Report post Posted June 22, 2002 Genre-labeling actually helps people find bands. Wanna know how? Here's how. Say a person listens to a band like Iced Earth, and then wants to hear more bands like Iced Earth. Somebody recommends Everclear to them. Notice how the two bands are nothing alike? That's why genre-labeling helps. Sure, it has its drawbacks, but the good outweighs the bad. When something different emerges, it's labeled. And I can think of at least one metal band that never used a solo: Fear Factory Heh...Dino used to make jokes about how he couldn't solo for shit. As for the rules of metal, they're really hard for ME to explain, since I'm just a 16-year-old fan that happens to play metal music and love it. But TheyCallMeAMark was off to good start with rule 1. If it helps, I'll do my best to diagram the evolution of metal. Shall we start? Okay. Pre-Metal: Bands that influenced both metal and punk, and all of hard rock in general. Iggy Pop & The Stooges, The Rolling Stones (for the controversy especially), Jimi Hendrix, and The MC5. Metal: Bands such as Venom, The Scorpions, and the biggie...BLACK SABBATH. Metal emerged from the working class in Britain and Germany due to a need for a harsher form of music for a harsher way of life than most musicians had it. The music had a clear blues-rock influence (listen to an Iommi solo, and it should be obvious), and used heavy distortion. New Wave Of British Heavy Metal: Def Leppard (their early work is wicked good metal), Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Angel Witch, Diamond Head, and the almighty Motörhead. They took the distortion and other elements from earlier metal, and increased the speed as well as using MORE distortion (in Motörhead's case especially). Solo's became more complexed, and most bands used multiple guitarists to trade solo's between them and/or get a "heavier" sound. Thrash/Speed Metal (names are interchangeable, depending on the fan): Metallica, Slayer, Anthrax, Megadeth, Exodus, Testament, and Exhorder. Thrash bands took the attitude and increased speed of punk rock, the complexities and overall "power" of heavy metal, and combined them with a usually shared attitude of "fuck the world." The music was about the speed, about the intensity, and bands soon became more and more intense and started to growl and use raspy-voiced vocals to show the increased intensity and anger in the music. Thrash eventually lead to 2 offspring sub-genres of metal. Death Metal: Death, Sepultura, Morbid Angel, and Cannibal Corpse. Thrash bands that used growls as vocals and based their lyrics off of murder and the occult. Most thrash bands used clean-tuning and heavy distortion, or detuned their instruments by a half-step or a whole-step. Death metal bands used Drop-D tuning, for the most part, and increased the amount of distortion used. Death metal is still one of the most common sub-genres for metal bands today, as a death metal fan is made each and every day of the week. Black Metal (I'm not that good when talking black metal comes, so bear with me): Venom, Bathory, and many, many bands from Scandinavia. The entire basis of black metal was to use heavy distortion and clean-tuning (standard tuning, low-to-high: EADGBe). The vocals were usually screeched, and the lyrics were about Satan, blasphemy, murder, or Scandinavian mythology (most bands about mythology are referred to as "viking metal," I believe, although I definitely could be wrong). Black metal is also one of the most common sub-genres of metal today, as a black metal band is seemingly formed every other week (if you want to get into black metal, don't start off with the directly Christ-raping stuff like Marduk and the sort). Doom Metal: My Dying Bride. Goth metal bands can also be referred to as doom metal, so Tiamat, Theatre Of Tragedy, and to an awkward extent Moonspell and Samæl. Doom metal is based more around early Black Sabbath, and if you listen to the Sabbath song "Electric Funeral," that should give you an idea of what doom metal sounds like. Personally, I'm not a fan of doom metal, but I am of gothic metal, so I'd suggest the more goth bands. Metalcore: Pro-Pain, Merauder, My Own Victim, Sick Of It All (some call it metalcore, I just call it hardcore, but I'll list them as metalcore for simplicity's sake). A blend of hardcore punk and heavy metal. I've been getting into metalcore a lot lately, so I'd suggest Merauder and Pro-Pain especially for starters. Not sure when it started to emerge, probably in the late 1980's/early 1990's, but it did in mostly New York and Los Angeles (where most hardcore and metal bands seemed to come from, as well). Now, nu-metal borrows more from hard rock and hardcore punk than it does from metal. Nu-Metal: Drowning Pool, Kittie, Korn, Slipknot. In actuality, not metal, but metal influences are there. The bands usually write self-loathing lyrics, use consistent profanity, and rarely, if ever, use a guitar solo. Heavy distortion, usually Drop-C or even Drop-A tuning (Slipknot uses Drop-A the majority of the time now), and screamed vocals. The bands usually list Nirvana, Soundgarden, Faith No More, and glam rock bands as influences. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest converge241 Report post Posted June 22, 2002 corey, I agree with all your distinctions.. sub - genres do help but they are always subject to everybody's own vision dont forget about hair/cheese metal too (unless you are trying to forget it) also there is that long standing argument concerning thrash metal vs. speed metal Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest CoreyLazarus416 Report post Posted June 23, 2002 As I said, thrash and speed are pretty much the same thing. There's no actual mechanics to differentiate speed metal and thrash metal, so they're just the same thing, only some bands go for pure speed and others go for an all-around heavier sound. And yes...I try to forget hair/cheese metal ever existed...well, except for Manoward and Gwar...gotta love Gwar... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
