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King Cucaracha

**UPDATED TITLE HISTORIES / JUNE 25th '07**

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EDIT: On a side note: I wonder who has the most title reigns? Not as in number of days but number of actual championships won. Like maybe a top 10 list for all time.

 

As a matter of fact, I keep track of that as well. I can post it up later if need be.

 

To answer your question, it's actually me ([Muzz]No wonder he keeps track of them[/Muzz]) now with 14. Johnny's got 13. Then WC 12, Flesher 11. That's only going on characters though, somebody might have more as a writer if they've had more than one character.

 

I was sure the entry to the Hall of Fame said that Thoth had 13 or something.

 

Depends if we're counting JL/ML maybe.

 

And where's the Stables title history?

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If we're counting the JL/ML, then Landon is actually the all-time winner with 18 title reigns, closely followed by Muzz with 17. I personally find Muzz and Thoth's reigns to be the most impressive - Muzz has held basically every title in the fed except the JL TV, JL Euro and Cruiserweight. He's also the <I>third</i> JL world champ, a fact that is rather wonderful/scary. Thoth holds the distinction of being the only person to have won all of the world titles in federation history, ML, JL and WF, the kind of record which is just really cool.

 

Personally, I think a whole bunch of these reigns are superfluous - I honestly wouldn't count anything after the end of 2005.

 

-Z

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Personally, I think a whole bunch of these reigns are superfluous - I honestly wouldn't count anything after the end of 2005.

 

-Z

:: checks to see when W&D broke the record for most title reigns ::

 

 

Okay, I'm good...

 

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I thought that was when you beat me and Landon earlier this year?

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Personally, I think a whole bunch of these reigns are superfluous - I honestly wouldn't count anything after the end of 2005.

 

-Z

:: checks to see when W&D broke the record for most title reigns ::

 

 

Okay, I'm good...

 

Either way that makes me the last International Champion.

 

Good deal.

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Oh, right, as a team. Earlier this year was when you both beat Raynor's record for most tag title reigns individually.

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That wasn't the record that mattered to us... we're not concerned with who has/had the most individual reigns, because we don't compete as individuals, or with other partners. It's not like I'm going to dump Johnny and start teaming with Landon to go after the tag belts, so who has the most reigns with other people isn't really important.

 

Check the marquee, dude: it's not Wildchild and Johnny Dangerous, it's Wild and Dangerous... :P

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If we're counting the JL/ML, then Landon is actually the all-time winner with 18 title reigns, closely followed by Muzz with 17. I personally find Muzz and Thoth's reigns to be the most impressive - Muzz has held basically every title in the fed except the JL TV, JL Euro and Cruiserweight. He's also the third JL world champ, a fact that is rather wonderful/scary. Thoth holds the distinction of being the only person to have won all of the world titles in federation history, ML, JL and WF, the kind of record which is just really cool.

 

Personally, I think a whole bunch of these reigns are superfluous - I honestly wouldn't count anything after the end of 2005.

 

-Z

 

I assume this wasn't a deliberate insult. But, thanks all the same.

 

 

EDIT: You know what, it's not worth the hassle.

Edited by King Cucaracha

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I'm just saying, after that point the fed basically existed on the strength of you, Toxxic, Johnny and... uh... well, I guess Mak came back for a while, and Rando has the title now. Let's be truthful, the only reason there's been record-setting title reign after record-setting title reign is because little legitimate new talent has entered the fed SINCE Toxxic. Up until '04, the main event would get a forcible realignment every three to five months. In my mind, a 30 day title reign in 2003 is worth about 75 now, and a 30 day reign in '01 is worth about 90. It's kinda like inflation, I'm not just being Muzzesque.

 

-Z

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I'm just saying, after that point the fed basically existed on the strength of you, Toxxic, Johnny and... uh...

:: snorts indignantly ::

 

There's more to the SWF than who's holding the WHC, you know... In fact, that basic attitude is part of why I don't want to have anything to do with it...

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Guest step up, ghetto blaster.
I'm just saying, after that point the fed basically existed on the strength of you, Toxxic, Johnny and... uh... well, I guess Mak came back for a while, and Rando has the title now. Let's be truthful, the only reason there's been record-setting title reign after record-setting title reign is because little legitimate new talent has entered the fed SINCE Toxxic. Up until '04, the main event would get a forcible realignment every three to five months. In my mind, a 30 day title reign in 2003 is worth about 75 now, and a 30 day reign in '01 is worth about 90. It's kinda like inflation, I'm not just being Muzzesque.

 

-Z

 

word to this.

 

I will address this situation if I ever run out of liquor money.

 

so really what I'm saying is that Toxxic should address this situation.

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Eh, I don't think Z's opinion has counted since the end of '05.

 

I mean come on, are you telling me that it's only the World Title picture that makes a fed interesting? I watch TNA and I certainly don't do it for the World Title picture because Sting's boring, Angle's pathetic, Abyss was booked like a moron and Joe got depushed at the wrong moment, and the only one with any appeal is Christian. However, further down the card there are all sorts of interesting things going on, and that's why I watch. You don't have to be the 'best' writer around (however we define it, for the sake of argument let's assume we define it by winning matches) and win the World Title to contribute to the fed. There have been plenty of midcard angles which have been well worth following, and I think to suggest otherwise is to demonstrate an impressive physical ability to shove your head quite thoroughly up your own backside.

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Eh, I don't think Z's opinion has counted since the end of '05.

 

You act like it ever did. I am, however, always right, regardless of who's paying attention.

 

The fact is that the World Title is still the World Title, and as a result it should always have the highest quality of competition. I have always felt that if the World Title isn't being valued on the whole, it reflects incredibly poorly on the rest of the fed and displays a lack of initiative. I remember being incredibly frustrated during the whole world title crisis in 2004 because I constantly had to prod people into the world title division to make up for the string of retiring champions, and most of them didn't respond well because they felt they either weren't "worthy" of the main event or weren't good enough.

 

That said, everything you mentioned was valid, although it's really missing my point. The quality of competition has declined irrecovably since 2005, as the result of a tiny roster, a lack of new participants and an increase in no-shows, which was already pretty high at any point in fed history. I was simply using the World Title as an obvious example. I'm not marginalizing the contributions of people that have actually put effort in since then, but the biggest reason they've had the unparalleled success title wise is because writers that are consistently writing are few and far between. You feel me? Don't get mad at me for telling the truth; no sane person can say the fed is better off now than it was in ANY previous year.

 

-Z

Edited by realitycheck

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Right. Now, in February I'd have agreed with you. Trouble is this ain't February anymore, and if you'd been paying attention in the last couple of months you'd have noticed that we're having a few new people coming in, and a few old people coming back. And this seems to have sparked a new fire under several people who were here already. And yes, these newbies/oldies are WRITING. So I'm not sure how weighing in and going, basically, "all that you people do now is worth shit anyway" is meant to help. I think that at least a couple of these people can inject some serious competition into the fed.

 

With regards to your World Title argument, yes, the World Title theoretically should have the highest level of competition, but that's not exactly how it works, is it? I mean, the best writer in the fed might hold the title, but supposing the second and third-best writers are engaged in a protracted and thoroughly interesting feud that never strays near the belt, what then? You bump up a couple of midcarders, and maybe they don't fare so well against the top dog. That's the best writer holding it, but is the competition there? Maybe not. So what do you do, demand that Nos 2 & 3 lay off their angle so you can make them fight for the belt with No 1? You remember what happens when you interrupt people's angles to make them fight for belts, right? Genesis Title Tournament and Lethal Lottery, that's what.

 

You always used to say that Edwin was your favourite World Champion because he actually did things with the belt, by which I assume you mean he built angles and storylines around it. So we recognise that angles and storylines are important, even in a match-writing fed. Now, I'm not suggesting we turn into the OAOAST (that's Landon's job), but I think we also need to realise that competition is not the only thing that makes what we do worthwhile. All e-feds are telling stories, it's just that in the SWF we're telling stories that not even the writers know the end to until it goes up.

 

So yeah, my record-breaking World Title and Tag Title reigns might mean nothing compared to the halcyon days of long ago, and I'll grant you that stiff, regular tag team competition has been a little lacking for quite a while, but just because Landon's taken the time to keep track and compile the history of this place, don't come in and start badmouthing the last couple of years. Look at what's happening now, look at the new arrivals and the people who've returned, maybe go comment on a match or two and offer the perspective of a former head booker instead of going 'yeah, the titles are worthless and this place is fucked'.

 

Thank you.

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Well, I'm sorry I'm not Mr. Positive. Next time I'll save any relevant criticism firmly in the back of my mouth and spew mindless praise instead. Oh, wait, no I won't. I'm not particularly concerned about whether what I says helps anything, and I'm terribly sorry my pointed commentary apparently devalues your fake title reigns in make believe wrestling. How inconsiderate of me.

 

The fact you even consider four or five new writers, the balance of which are returnees, to be a promising sign is telling. Filling up the roster with returnees has never, not ever, indicated a good sign for the health of the SWF. Returnees have limited shelf life, especially if they're people that have been involved on the writing end of the spectrum for a long time, or have been away from the fed for a long time. But I suppose only know this because I have been a returnee multiple times, and booked them for the better part of two years or so. And again, this is an infinitely smaller crop of returnees and new writers than regularly occured in the past. The SWF is still in a weaker state than it's ever been; argue with me about everyting else all you like, but I can't fathom how you're disputing that.

 

By the way, where in the fuck did I say anything about the World Title needing the best writer in the fed to hold it, or the second and third best writers in the fed to compete for it? I didn't even imply that. All I said was that the World Title needs the highest level of COMPETITION in the fed, which is to say it needs to have a steady stream of able challengers. Sitting on the title for months because only one person that wants to write for the championship is retarded. And for Christ's sake, Toxxic, I advocated more angles more often than any other booker in history - what you just said is so stupid it's ignorant. Of course I know angles are important, but belts are important, too, because if you're not striving for something other than the inevitable co-written PPV blowoff, then we really are becoming the OAOAST. There has to be some kind of balance that can be maintained. I also realize that the Lethal Lottery and World Title Tournaments were terrible ideas that just bred the resentment of the fed. But angles, by their nature, should be flexible. I've never understood why so many people found it impossible to do a feud without booking every match against their opponent for six weeks ahead of time and not thinking of any way they could simultaneously be worked into a title picture. It isn't hard, and I routinely tried to help people with it. If you'd like to continue building straw men, I'll direct you to the CE folder where that kind of horseshit is acceptable.

 

And by the way... I've been a part of the SWF in some capacity, actively involved or as a spectator, for over five years. Don't try to guilt me with your thinly-vieled, cockpulling arrogance with statements like "..but just because Landon's taken the time to keep track and compile the history of this place, don't come in and start badmouthing the last couple of years." That's beyond insulting. You don't think the current state of the fed upsets me? You don't think I realize that there are people that continue to put unnecessary amounts of time into this silly game, just because they don't know why they love it? I'm aware that you are one right now - but I was one in the past, and the fed matters enough I'm still willing to make a positive contribution in the future. But save that rubbish for someone without the will to return the effort; it's not going to stop me from being realistic.

 

-Z

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SO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Come back and write, come back and mark, come back and book, go recruiting to get us new writers, go give some feedback for the people who are writing now to make them better writers and increase their ability to compete.

 

Admitting that you're not particularly concerned about whether what you say helps anything or not just proves that you have no real interest in making a positive contribution.

 

Argue all you want, the fact remains that the fed is looking better now that it was six months ago. Maybe we are ultimately doomed, maybe we aren't. If you want to help out, jump on board and do something. If you wish us well but don't have the time or motivation right now, read the shows and whatever, you're welcome to. Just don't jump in and spew out reasons why the fed is fucked and nowhere near as good as it used to be without some simultaneously suggesting some sort of solution, please. If you don't believe there is a solution then fine, that's your prerogative, please keep your trap shut and leave the rest of us to get on with it for as long as we can or want to.

 

The reason I mentioned Landon's compilation was not to 'guilt trip', it's that you haven't really showed up to make your statements of judgement and doom until he did so, and it was the title reigns that you mentioned. So I assumed the discussion amongst ourselves of the relative length of reigns was what prompted your original statement. If this was not the case and I jumped to an incorrect conclusion - sorry.

 

Thank you.

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All right, all right. Enough.

 

I understand where you are coming from, but while you both are talking about the same thing, you're talking about different time periods. Z, Toxx wasn't around 3-4-5 years ago so he doesn't know how the fed operated then. Is the SWF today like the SWF during the Edwin time period? Hell no. During the Flesher time period? Hell no. And it probably never will be. We may never get anything as great as Chilly Chilly, Bang Bang, Justice & Rule, or Mag-7 (with the emphasis on tag teams/stables because thats the only thing I can remember off the top of my head) again. But the point Toxx is trying to make is that the SWF today is better than where we were 6 months ago when the announcement that Taamo is closing it down at Genesis was made. We have new writers who actually show and want to improve, old writers are returning and showing, and well...Wild and Dangerous are still around.

 

And I agree with Toxx. Z, coming in once a month to tell us we are doomed isn't a positive contribution. For fucks sake, mark a match or help Taamo with the booking. Hell, pull a Raynor and return. You can let Kibs punch you again.

 

 

And I agree with Z. The World Title should have the most competition, it IS the World Title after all. Then again, I tried to do an angle involving the World Title and "key" members of the fed cried, so now we see where that went.

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I'm not sure I understand how being critical shows I don't care. If I didn't care, I wouldn't say anything at all. As I mentioned before, as far as I'm concerned my comments on the current situation are a reflection of reality. However, I do detest fatalism in all of its forms - while I guess what I say implies that the SWF is doomed, I'm aware that may not actually happen. Christ knows the fed has teetered on the edge of a knife before, countless times before, and reeled itself back in. Everything I've said was more or less a supporting argument for my comments about the long title reigns; I didn't realize that should have come with a twelve point plan for the fed's recovery.

 

For the record, I've suggested a couple of ideas, privately at least, as solutions to the SWF's problems. I don't think you'd like most of them, since they tend to advocate a haitus and total restructuring, which I believe is the only genuine long-term solution. Again, I see returnees only as a band-aid fix, both writing, booking and marking wise. That said, I've also considered returning to competition myself, but that's hinged on who's participating at the current time. You'll forgive me for wanting to involve myself in the fed with people I'm friends with.

 

Also, what I've said isn't a dig at Landon, or anybody else. The discussion about who's had the most title reigns came up, and I mentioned I felt the unnecessarily long runs are a byproduct of less competition. For a change, I actually think that's an objective statement to come out of my mouth; I don't think it really matters who's holding the belts in that case.

 

-Z

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I don't necessarily disagree with Zed, but there are exceptions to "less competition breeds longer title reigns". Even discounting my International Title reign (which featured extended angles with Zyon and Wildchild), Bruce Blank's hardcore title reign had some awesome angles as well.

 

Right now we're running fewer shows, and that's going to inflate title reigns as well. Does that mean the competition is any worse than it was say, six or eight months ago?

 

There's more to the title reigns than "Not enough people are in the division."

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Excellent point about the changed schedule Hawke, I hadn't even considered that part. Obviously (now you've mentioned it) we'd have to schedule more frequent defences in a 'per every x number of shows' in order to get the same amount of defences in a calendar month, or whatever. Then again, didn't they used to do even more shows than our old 'three shows in two weeks' schedule? Which if this wasn't taken into account when defences were booked is something that would make Z's point about bigger title reigns true, albeit in a different way.

 

Then again I suppose one of the best ways to regard any reign is in number of successful defences, not actual time with it, unless course it's the WWE title where it's defended PPVs and only PPVs and every PPV, so it's pretty much the same thing.

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