From Keith....

[Guest Shadow]

From Keith's latest feedbag over at Thesmarks.com:

 

"Shawn cost Hunter the win because he was scheduled to do the D-X reunion thing and superkick Undertaker to give Hunter the win, but he showed up the week before in the famous "no condition to perform", thus forcing them to scrap the angle. As additional punishment, his friend Hunter was forced to job clean to Undertaker, which then triggered the heat between HHH & HBK in real life."

 

I know Keith isn't a real insider, but he gets all this info from Meltzer's newsletters like everyone else, and I do remember seeing this in Meltzer last year, so there. Meltzer is right on these things 9 times out of 10.

 

There you go, Angle marks. There is no Clique without Hunter since he's the only one with any real backstage clout right now, so that should put an end to these Clique rumours the Angle marks have been spreading all over these boards.

[Guest]

I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!!!!!!

 

THE CLIQUE ARE GOOD PEOPLE!

 

AHEM, THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT!

 

Yeah right.

[Guest Anglesault]

This proves nothing...EXCEPT that HHH decided that HE would be the one to end Taker's Mania streak until the plan fell through at the eleventh hour.

[Guest]

So Triple H is pissed at Shawn because he had to job clean and he didn't get to be the one to end Taker's mania streak?

 

FUCK TRIPLE H!

[Guest Risk]

I'm going to say this once: If you like HHH, you probably shouldn't be here.

[Guest]

I like HHH, but Scott Kieth blows.

 

--Rob

[Guest alfdogg]

I'm gonna be a little nicer than Risk and try to reason.  (Better put on your flame gear for that one, Risk.)

 

While I believe that did happen, there is also nothing saying that the two haven't reconciled since Toronto.  I mean, this happened over a year ago, and I know they weren't on good terms at WM, but there's been no reports that I've heard since then about their friendship, what terms they're on.  So we don't know for sure right now if they still have heat.

 

On the other hand, we all know that Vince will always have a hard-on for HBK after Montreal, so he can get away with murder and so can his friends.

 

Plus, the story doesn't tell anything about clout right NOW.  It just tells an event about what happened over a year ago, and why they still MAY have heat with each other.  It has nothing to do with what clout the Clique may or may not have.

 

So please don't flame bait the Angle marks until you have all your facts straight.

[Guest Risk]

No one can flame the Euro champion, yo.  Screw McMahon's "mental acument" and "intelletual sperm," I have my incredably high post count.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I like HHH, but Scott Kieth blows.

 

--Rob

Yeah, damn that Keith guy for backing up his statement with facts. What a joke.

 

As for this, I think you're all misenterpreting it. While it does suggest the reason for Hunter and Shawn's issues, it does not mean the Kliq has no power. There are other guys with political pull besides HHH, as absolutely shocking as that might sound. For example, Nash was said to immediately start kissing Undertaker's ass upon entering the WWE and he and X-Pac have been making politcal power plays over the past few weeks with little resistence. HHH may have seperated himself from the nWo once it failed, but that doesn't mean he won't start building support with them and mend his problems with Shawn, if for nothing else than to do good business. Hunter is a smart guy, to say the least, and if it appears that Shawn can go another three months before self-destructing again and being sent home, there's no doubt in my mind that HHH will use him for all that he's worth.

[Guest alfdogg]

No one can flame the Euro champion, yo.  Screw McMahon's "mental acument" and "intelletual sperm," I have my incredably high post count.

Fuck your Euro title, dude.  I got my I-C title!  

[Guest Shadow]

This proves nothing...EXCEPT that HHH decided that HE would be the one to end Taker's Mania streak until the plan fell through at the eleventh hour.

Ummm, dumb-ass, the DX Reunion angle was planned by Vince, and it was canceled by Vince because of HBK's state. I think HHH has every right to get pissed-off that he got screwed out of a win.

 

And a year ago, HHH wasn't in the same state he's in now. He was still an excellent worker (and if you don't beleive me, he was a month removed from the match widly chosen as the best match of 2001, No Way Out with Steve Austin) and the general feeling was that if Taker was going to give someone the rub, it should be Hunter. I'm not just kissing Hunter's ass, either- go back a year ago and read the comments by any net writer, and that's what they basically said.

 

And Risk- I've been an internet smark for a while, and back in 2000 it was the cool thing among them to praise/ass-kiss Triple H. He won Wrestler of the Year on virtually every website that mattered. I was writing at IGN Wrestling at the time, and trust me, he got his ass kissed more than perhaps anyone else in the buisness. But he comes back from one injury not at 100%, and he starts fucking Stephanie, and everyone turns on him. Well, fuck you, I'm not going to stop being a smark or stop visiting boards I like (besides the Angle marks, of course), just because the smark opinion on Triple H has changed- and I haven't changed my own opinion on him just to fit in with the rest of the so-called crowd.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Ummm, dumb-ass, the DX Reunion angle was planned by Vince, and it was canceled by Vince because of HBK's state. I think HHH has every right to get pissed-off that he got screwed out of a win.

 

And a year ago, HHH wasn't in the same state he's in now. He was still an excellent worker (and if you don't beleive me, he was a month removed from the match widly chosen as the best match of 2001, No Way Out with Steve Austin) and the general feeling was that if Taker was going to give someone the rub, it should be Hunter. I'm not just kissing Hunter's ass, either- go back a year ago and read the comments by any net writer, and that's what they basically said.

 

And Risk- I've been an internet smark for a while, and back in 2000 it was the cool thing among them to praise/ass-kiss Triple H. He won Wrestler of the Year on virtually every website that mattered. I was writing at IGN Wrestling at the time, and trust me, he got his ass kissed more than perhaps anyone else in the buisness. But he comes back from one injury not at 100%, and he starts fucking Stephanie, and everyone turns on him. Well, fuck you, I'm not going to stop being a smark or stop visiting boards I like (besides the Angle marks, of course), just because the smark opinion on Triple H has changed- and I haven't changed my own opinion on him just to fit in with the rest of the so-called crowd.

While it is true that HHH deserved the win over Taker in 2001, the HHHate had started long before then. From the very beggining most internet fans were against his push, and with good reason. After Foley gave him the rub many started to change their tune and after the absolute greatness that was 2000 ended, most had finally accepted how good he was, but the HHHate continued. Most resented his win at Wresltmania, and all of them new he was screwing Steph. I realize that it was all the rage to priase him on IGN, but plenty of others trashed him all the time, RD Reynolds of Wrestlecrap being the one that sticks out the most in my mind. Those guys planted the seeds of hate that have grown to fruitation now and have made so many people into mindless drones with no free will.

 

However, HHH, 2000-2001 is dead, and I don't think we'll ever see that kind of greatness from him again. Right now, he's very regressed and has become one of the Guys Who is Just There and only serves to hold down the newer talent even more. If he would lose some weight and try and re-abilitate his leg some more, he might be good. Oh, and he should turn heel, too. They lost the potential of HHH as a face when they shock-turned him as the accomplice in the "Who Hit Austin" storyline. Right now he would be best-suited as the monster heel he was in 2000-2001.

 

But to each is his own, ya know? You don't have to buy into that if you don't want to.

[Guest bcu1979]

From Keith's latest feedbag over at Thesmarks.com:

 

"Shawn cost Hunter the win because he was scheduled to do the D-X reunion thing and superkick Undertaker to give Hunter the win, but he showed up the week before in the famous "no condition to perform", thus forcing them to scrap the angle. As additional punishment, his friend Hunter was forced to job clean to Undertaker, which then triggered the heat between HHH & HBK in real life."

 

I know Keith isn't a real insider, but he gets all this info from Meltzer's newsletters like everyone else, and I do remember seeing this in Meltzer last year, so there. Meltzer is right on these things 9 times out of 10.

 

There you go, Angle marks. There is no Clique without Hunter since he's the only one with any real backstage clout right now, so that should put an end to these Clique rumours the Angle marks have been spreading all over these boards.

All that proves is that Shawn Michaels and Triple H HAD heat in the past. I don't recall anyone disputing that fact. People are complaining about the current political scene, which happens to provide all Kliq members with bigger roles than have earned.

 

Here's a direct quote from this week's Wrestling Observer newsletter in regards to the comments made by Shawn Michaels on the 6/10 RAW:

 

"The comment was, the idea being, retribution because Triple H is his FRIEND (even though HHH is a face and supposedly on a different brand show) and HHH and Rock have issues when Rock "outed" HHH (not by name) as being someone who tried to hold him back due to jealousy in both a Rolling Stone interview and on ESPN's Unscripted."

 

Apparently, they have made up. Although, I thought that was pretty obvious from the moment they put Shawn Michaels back on tv. And, do you really think Kevin Nash and X-Pac are getting preferential treatment based on their own talents?

[Guest Anglesault]

But he comes back from one injury not at 100%, and he starts fucking Stephanie, and everyone turns on him. Well, fuck you, I'm not going to stop being a smark or stop visiting boards I like (besides the Angle marks, of course), just because the smark opinion on Triple H has changed- and I haven't changed my own opinion on him just to fit in with the rest of the so-called crowd.

Your right. he DIDN'T come back at 100 % He came back at like FORTY PERCENT. Can you at least admit that?

[Guest J*ingus]

Ummm, dumb-ass, the DX Reunion angle was planned by Vince, and it was canceled by Vince because of HBK's state. I think HHH has every right to get pissed-off that he got screwed out of a win.

Ummm, dumb-ass, IT'S A WORK.  Triple H has never actually won a match in his life.  It's fixed, fake, phony, a sham, a fraud.  You know, as in, NOT REAL.  Therefore, HHH has no right to get pissed-off that he got "screwed" out of a win.  

 

As for Wrestlemania that year, look at it this way: the heels were booked to win in Austin-Rock, Angle-Benoit, and TLC.  Taker-HHH was the only important match left.  What were they going to do, have yet another heel go over?  As it was, HHH got a live introduction by Motorhead, and 'Taker made him look better than any other opponent he's had in years.  So tell me, what the FUCK did Triple H have to be angry over?

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Ummm, dumb-ass, the DX Reunion angle was planned by Vince, and it was canceled by Vince because of HBK's state. I think HHH has every right to get pissed-off that he got screwed out of a win.

Ummm, dumb-ass, IT'S A WORK.  Triple H has never actually won a match in his life.  It's fixed, fake, phony, a sham, a fraud.  You know, as in, NOT REAL.  Therefore, HHH has no right to get pissed-off that he got "screwed" out of a win.  

 

As for Wrestlemania that year, look at it this way: the heels were booked to win in Austin-Rock, Angle-Benoit, and TLC.  Taker-HHH was the only important match left.  What were they going to do, have yet another heel go over?  As it was, HHH got a live introduction by Motorhead, and 'Taker made him look better than any other opponent he's had in years.  So tell me, what the FUCK did Triple H have to be angry over?

Look, everyone knows it's a work, but HHH was, at the time, the only concievable possibility to end Taker's reign and get the rub from him. Shawn, though inadvertedly, cost him that shot, and also screwed himself over in the process. HHH had a right to be pissed off.

 

Second, Taker didn't make HHH look good, it was vice versa. HHH bumped, sold, and generally worked his ass off to give Taker his best match he'd had since his return (and arguably since, too) so I don't know how you can say Taker was doing any carrying there. The heels were all being booked to go over, but that really does bring up the point of how rational it was to have Austin go over as a heel to begin with. HHH was still deserving of a win at the time. Now? I don't think so, but he'll get the win anyway.

[Guest Shadow]

Anglesault, I freely admit it. HHH is at around 40% of where he once was. HOWEVER, in a promotion that has an aging Hogan and Taker hired with both as Undisputed World Champions in the past two months, a 40% Triple H is still better than whatever condition Taker and Hogan are at, and I don't hate his matches since he's came back as much as everyone else seems to.

 

Now, would I love it if Triple H took time off to size down a bit and fully rehab his knee, and maybe get back to 80-90% of where he once was? Fuck yeah I would. But I'm not going to turn on the guy just because injuries have worn him down a bit. I still think that he will be forced to take time off again and rehab his injures more fully, and come back at 80-90% of what he was in 2000-2001.

 

For the person who said HHH's face turn was gone after they hot-shotted his turn on Austin: Eh, I don't agree. Hear the cheers he got on the RAW after WM-X7, when he ran down the rampway as everyone thought he was going to help Rock against Austin? And HHH was STILL getting cheers from the crowd even after that. It was obvious that the two were going to be split and HHH was going to be turned face, as if you remember the fateful night he was injured, before the Tag Title match the two had a skit where HHH was pissed-off at Austin for not helping him beat Kane for the IC Title at Judgement Day '01, when Hunter saved Austin from losing the World Title from Taker on the same show. The seeds were obviously planted and I firmly believe that Hunter would have turned face after KOTR '01 had what happened not happened. Anyway, while he lost heat everytime he was hot-shotted back to heel, that's his own fault for wanting to remain a heel, and I still think that he would have gotten over fine as a face, at the level he was still at, at either the night after WM-X7 (when they should have turned him) or after KOTR '01.

[Guest Dangerous A]

I agree Shadow. Isn't it amazing what timing can do for a face or heel turn? If HHH would've turned the night after WM-X7 I think he would be a hundred times more over as a face in comparison to when he came back in January from the injury with no real explanation as to where his allegiances were.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

For the person who said HHH's face turn was gone after they hot-shotted his turn on Austin: Eh, I don't agree. Hear the cheers he got on the RAW after WM-X7, when he ran down the rampway as everyone thought he was going to help Rock against Austin? And HHH was STILL getting cheers from the crowd even after that. It was obvious that the two were going to be split and HHH was going to be turned face, as if you remember the fateful night he was injured, before the Tag Title match the two had a skit where HHH was pissed-off at Austin for not helping him beat Kane for the IC Title at Judgement Day '01, when Hunter saved Austin from losing the World Title from Taker on the same show. The seeds were obviously planted and I firmly believe that Hunter would have turned face after KOTR '01 had what happened not happened. Anyway, while he lost heat everytime he was hot-shotted back to heel, that's his own fault for wanting to remain a heel, and I still think that he would have gotten over fine as a face, at the level he was still at, at either the night after WM-X7 (when they should have turned him) or after KOTR '01.

Very good point. The night after X7 was another perfect opportunity wasted, and for what? A two-man power trip that did shit for ratings (although the ratings they got smoke anything the WWE gets now) and HHH being in his comfy heel spot. I mean, they could have done good enough business by re-hashing HHH/Austin (with the roles reversed, though), at least until Rock returned. Oh well, hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

 

Yeah, it was obvious that HHH was going to turn babyface against Austin to split up the two-man power trip, but I think by then most people just didn't care. They had already had it teesed twice, and it just didn't seem appealing anymore. I mean, if you go back and watch the TV from when Hunter was slowly but surely turning face in 2000, it's obvious that he was right up there with Rock and Austin when it came to getting babyface heat, and that includes when he was acting like a prick heel, too. Durring the two-man power trip era, he wasn't getting cheered nearly as much. I know he was a heel then and wasn't supposed to be getting cheers, but prior to the night after X7, he had to really try to get people to stop cheering him, even though he was a heel. After the second babyface tease, people were more apathetic than anything.

[Guest]

I agree Shadow. Isn't it amazing what timing can do for a face or heel turn? If HHH would've turned the night after WM-X7 I think he would be a hundred times more over as a face in comparison to when he came back in January from the injury with no real explanation as to where his allegiances were.

And all the HHH haters would probably be on their knees and would be grateful for the blow job that HHH is letting them bestow on him.

[Guest]

Just my 2 cents. WMX-7, Taker needed the win more then Hunter. Hunter just the month before got the biggest win of his career, IMO, by beating Austin Clean.

 

The plan was made for Taker to feud with Austin after WM so he needed the win more then Triple H. Weather that was a good plan or not, it was THE Plan.

[Guest Shadow]

Just my 2 cents. WMX-7, Taker needed the win more then Hunter. Hunter just the month before got the biggest win of his career, IMO, by beating Austin Clean.

 

The plan was made for Taker to feud with Austin after WM so he needed the win more then Triple H. Weather that was a good plan or not, it was THE Plan.

Yes, but we don't know how HBK costing HHH the match in a DX Feud angle would have effected the overall angles. Maybe that would have lead to HHH turning face the next night on RAW (since HBK hasn't been a face that much of his post-injury career, and seems to work better as a heel) instead of forming the Two-Man Power Trip. So Taker wouldn't need that win if Hunter was the one going against Austin.

[Guest]

So, either way. Shawn Michaels messed the Storyline up by coming in "Screwed Up" that Tuesday.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Just my 2 cents. WMX-7, Taker needed the win more then Hunter. Hunter just the month before got the biggest win of his career, IMO, by beating Austin Clean.

 

The plan was made for Taker to feud with Austin after WM so he needed the win more then Triple H. Weather that was a good plan or not, it was THE Plan.

Getting the pin over Austin wasn't the biggest win of his career. That would either the street fights with Foley. The Hell in a Cell match is historically important because it was Foley's "retirement" but the Street Fight from the PPV before really was the first time HHH looked like a legit bad ass monster heel that could be just as nasty as Cactus, and the fans took him seriously from then on. An arguement might be made for Wrestlemania 2000 since it was the first time a heel went over, too. However, No Way Out meant literally nothing because a month or so later the two were buddies and rulling the WWF together.

 

Regardless of what THE PLAN was, the best thing for business would have been a HHH win over Taker, giving the neccesary rub he could use to turn babyface and feud with Austin until Summerslam. Again, Hindsight is 20/20, but I like my plan more.

[Guest]

a 40% Triple H is still better than whatever condition Taker and Hogan are at

 

Is he better than a 100% Jericho, Angle, Booker, Guerrero, etc.? Is he better than a soon-to-be 100% Benoit or Edge?

 

But I'm not going to turn on the guy just because injuries have worn him down a bit.

 

People haven't turned on him solely because of injuries. It's because he refuses to admit he has been slowed by them. And in the process making Jericho (the first Undisputed champion, reigning for four months) look like a complete joke who can't beat a slow, half-crippled man even with the boss's daughter at his side.  It's because he refuses to hand the ball over to younger, more capable workers.  It's because he holds down said younger, more capable workers even though business dictates they should be at the top.

[Guest Anglesault]

Is he better than a 100% Jericho, Angle, Booker, Guerrero, etc.? Is he better than a soon-to-be 100% Benoit or Edge?

 

No, No, No, No, No, and probably.