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EVIL~! alkeiper

Monday Night Wars

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Darth, I like you and all, but I think I need to say it again: Sometimes I think you post without reading the thread (same thing happened with Mr. Perfect DVD Easter Eggs). I'm just sayin'...

 

I'm hoping a torrent of these episodes shows up as I've once again lost faith in Cogeco.

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Shawn and HHH are so obnoxiously funny on this Raw. I lost it when Bret challenged the man standing next to Shawn, causing Shawn to stare off to his left until Bret clarified he wanted HHH.

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Shawn and HHH are so obnoxiously funny on this Raw. I lost it when Bret challenged the man standing next to Shawn, causing Shawn to stare off to his left until Bret clarified he wanted HHH.

 

HBK and HHH were great during this time. Definitely the most entertaining HBK was on the mic. They get a good one off on the next Raw where HHH talks about how better and smarter he is than Bret and how he was bigger than Bret in more ways than one. Leading HBK to look down at HHH and exclaim...

 

"Good God, you can put an eye out with that thing!"

 

I never noticed how detached Bret was. I wasn't privey to that info back then. Although I imagine that Pillman's death contributed to his already disinterested move. Very sad that Bret and Neihart are the only ones remaining from The Hart Foundation.

 

My bad before on noticing all the wrestler's deaths. Owen's death was a tragic, freak accident and JR said on the Pillman DVD that he actually died of an undiagnosed heart condition. But it's amazing how so many wrestlers didn't learn from that death. It's apparently moved onto the second generation. Last year, Davey Boy's son was suspended by the WWE for a steroid-related offense. It's true amazing. He knows what juicing did to his father yet Harry is apparently in a gigantic rush to join him.

 

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Yeah, I am quite intrigued at these shows in retrospect when it comes to Bret. At the time I didn't notice any of this because I didn't know what to look for and didn't really look much at net wrestling sites until after Montreal.

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Yeah, could you explain it a bit? With the recaps I read, Mr. Petrie was watching Nitro during a commercial and forgot to go back to Raw. It just notes "the segment they ran on Superstars".

 

See, I don't know. I read the same recap as you did, so I have no idea what the segment was.

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It's going to be something watching these episodes of Raw that lead into the Survivor Series '97 now. The contempt Shawn and Bret had for each other is so thick and obvious, it's not even funny.

 

And I agree with everyone else... watching Owen's facial expressions in this episode is both eerie and sad, especially considering the show is from the Kemper Arena.

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I still think Bret vs. Shawn was a truly bizarre match since there was literally no face in it for the fans to side with. I guess the Canadians cheered for Bret, but for the US fans I don't see how there was anyone to cheer in that match.

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As a mark back then, I remember cheering for Bret since he had previously been one of my favorites before the anti-USA stuff, as opposed to HBK, who I had always hated during his heel years. Plus, I was pissed that he cost Taker the title and won HIAC. Man, those were the days.

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Oh yeah I was always a Bret fan much moreso than a Shawn fan, but the match was so oddly booked and promoted. It was quite literally "Hey here's two assholes who run their own factions. One guy is misunderstood and acts like a douche but thinks he's right (Bret) and the other is without any redeeming value (Shawn).

 

The PPV did a .89 buyrate though so I guess it did intrigue people on some level.

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Oh yeah I was always a Bret fan much moreso than a Shawn fan, but the match was so oddly booked and promoted. It was quite literally "Hey here's two assholes who run their own factions. One guy is misunderstood and acts like a douche but thinks he's right (Bret) and the other is without any redeeming value (Shawn).

 

The PPV did a .89 buyrate though so I guess it did intrigue people on some level.

 

I wonder how many of those buys came during the week before the PPV where word came out that Bret was leaving... and how many came off the replay to see the screwjob actually happen.

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This might sound silly but why did they bother putting the belt on Bret at Summerslam 97? Clearly they had no real plans for him as champion other than to dick around with the Patriot and Vader. His last title run in the WWF was pointless. Why not just keep the belt on UT, have him job it to HBK at the HIAC match, and then Bret goes on his merry way to WCW?

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I have to say the U.S. vs Canada stuff (Bret being a heel in the U.S. and a face in Canada) was great and it was like nothing we've seen before.

 

This was probably my favorite time ever, and I doubt we'll ever see anything of this sort where you have 3 heel stables (Hart Foundation, DX, Nation of Domination), a guy who's not really a face (Austin), and seemingly real animosity between everyone. Shit felt real. I mean, I was like 8-10 years old when all this took place, but even looking back at some of the clips, these people looked like they really hated each other (which in the case of Hart and Michaels, they really did). I also want to mention specifically, although I can't find it anywhere the time Michaels got jumped by the Hart Foundation before the flag match, that was awesome selling.

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This might sound silly but why did they bother putting the belt on Bret at Summerslam 97? Clearly they had no real plans for him as champion other than to dick around with the Patriot and Vader. His last title run in the WWF was pointless. Why not just keep the belt on UT, have him job it to HBK at the HIAC match, and then Bret goes on his merry way to WCW?

 

I believe the working plan, before Vince decided they couldn't keep paying Bret, was to have another Austin/Bret WrestleMania match with Austin getting the win and the title.

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This might sound silly but why did they bother putting the belt on Bret at Summerslam 97? Clearly they had no real plans for him as champion other than to dick around with the Patriot and Vader. His last title run in the WWF was pointless. Why not just keep the belt on UT, have him job it to HBK at the HIAC match, and then Bret goes on his merry way to WCW?

Once Austin got done beating Owen, Austin was going to go back after Bret again, leading up to Austin winning the WWF Title from Bret at WM14. Bret and Bulldog were just messing around the Patriot and Vader in the mid-card until Austin got done with Owen. They were going to set it up with the same deal with Austin basically saying he didn't give a shit about the Intercontinental Title because he wanted Bret's WWF Title and just run right back into Bret vs. Austin.

 

I always wondered how this would have played out if Bret never left to WCW. Austin finally getting his big win over Bret and winning the WWF Title at the same time would have been a lot more satisfying than him beating a crippled HBK that he barely feuded with was, but if it had happened, there would have been no Austin/McMahon, which pushed the company back over WCW.

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I disagree with this. To me, WM 14 was more about Shawn finally getting his ass kicked than it was a huge Austin moment. Austin's big moments came in the weeks following this, but the title win was a formality.

 

Austin/Bret was out of steam by late 1997 anyway. And besides I always dislike simply repeating WM matches in consecutive years, unless it's a scenario like Andre/Hogan where they met in a tourney match at WM 4 after the previous year's main event.

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I disagree with this. To me, WM 14 was more about Shawn finally getting his ass kicked than it was a huge Austin moment. Austin's big moments came in the weeks following this, but the title win was a formality.

 

Austin/Bret was out of steam by late 1997 anyway. And besides I always dislike simply repeating WM matches in consecutive years, unless it's a scenario like Andre/Hogan where they met in a tourney match at WM 4 after the previous year's main event.

 

It might have been a formality, but I'm glad the WWE saved Austin's first title win for Wrestlemania. They could have hot-shotted the belt on him numerous times, but they showed incredible restraint in waiting until the spring of 1998.

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Know what I mean though? That WM match was more of a catharsis for the HBK haters of the world (I was one from 1992-98). I didn't like Austin much at all at that point, but warmed to him once the Vince feud got going. After all the times Shawn pulled his crap and got out of jobbing, won matches he shouldn't have, acted like a douche...this was the one time where everyone flat out knew he was jobbing.

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Know what I mean though? That WM match was more of a catharsis for the HBK haters of the world (I was one from 1992-98). I didn't like Austin much at all at that point, but warmed to him once the Vince feud got going. After all the times Shawn pulled his crap and got out of jobbing, won matches he shouldn't have, acted like a douche...this was the one time where everyone flat out knew he was jobbing.

Not for me. I didn't really care much for Shawn or his act at that point. The thing I wanted most was for Austin to finally beat Bret on the big stage. I can't think of better symmetry than Austin winning the title and avenging his loss at Mania one year after the Submission match and double turn. The whole story heading into XIV was Austin was assuming the company's top position, and it should have been built on him beating Bret. Shawn just seemed like a placeholder in a feud he wasn't part of.

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Austin/Bret was out of steam by late 1997 anyway.

 

I totally disagree. In fact, I thought the feud with Owen was a step down for Austin because I still wanted to see him get his big win over Bret (no, a DQ win at "Revenge of the 'Taker" does not count). Even if anyone was tired of Austin/Bret at that point, Austin chasing Bret's WWF Title would have added new sizzle to the steak. But how could anyone be tired of Austin/Bret at that point? They only had three singles matches within a span of 9 months at the time of the Owen feud starting.

 

But Austin/HBK was a letdown compared to what Austin/Bret should have been. Austin and DX didn't even start interacting with each other until right before the February "No Way Out" PPV. And any feeling you may have gotten about "oh, this douche is finally getting his ass kicked" was wiped out because of Jim Ross' commentary, selling HBK as this huge warrior because he was fighting hurt.

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Here's my point though. Austin started calling Bret out in Sept./Oct. 1996 and those two guys had some sort of altercation nearly every week on TV until after Canadian Stampede in July, 1997. Then they went to Austin vs. Owen. Maybe it's because I've always been a much bigger Bret fan than Austin fan, but I never once sat down and thought "Gee I wish Austin had gotten that elusive blowoff win over Bret."

 

WM 14 would have been more depressing than rousing with Bret in that champion role. Bret never wanted to flat out be the 100% asshole heel that the angle would have demanded. And thus Austin wouldn't have gotten as over as he did since people would have been conflicted about who to cheer or what they wanted to see.

 

But Shawn? This guy screwed UT out of the title at SS, screwed over Bulldog in England (in a match Bulldog dedicated to his dying sister), got lucky as hell and screwed UT at HIAC, literally was handed the title vs. Bret in the biggest screwjob ever, and got another bullshit win over UT in the Casket Match. After all that crap I personally needed to see him finally get his ass kicked and while I was no Austin fan I realized he was the necessary evil.

 

If anything HBK's injury in 1998 prevented UT from getting a satisfactory blowoff win over Shawn. In fact UT never really got anything back on him until the 2007 Rumble.

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To be accurate, HBK didn't screw Undertaker at Summerslam. He went to hit Bret with a chair, Bret dodged, and he hit Taker instead.

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So Degeneration-X is officially christened as such this week. This Shawn-Bret build up is so weird since the fans don't really know who to cheer for since Bret's been a heel for so long, but DX is acting like such idiots that they don't deserve to be rooted for either so it leads to the crowd basically sitting on their hands. As hard as it is to believe, I think Hunter was being the more annoying of the two at that point because all he'd really accomplished in his career to that date is buddying up with the clique and he's acting like he's the greatest thing ever.

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They should be getting near Jarrett's return interview where gives his thoughts on everything in the WWF. I loved the word association with HHH being mentioned: "Tag along." He also said he would be shocked if HBK didn't win vs. Bret, so maybe he knew something....

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I believe the 20th is Jarrett's "shoot" promo.

 

I don't really have much to say about Nitro but I really enjoyed Raw. It was hitting on all nostalgia cylinders for the just about official beginning of the Attitude Era (I think "officially", it began with the Vince promo about not insulting our intelligence and shades of gray and what have you).

 

Raw highlights:

- The term "D-Generation X" is used (and in an odd deal, Larry Z referred to Raven and Saturn as Generation X on Nitro).

- A fun minis match.

- LOVED the LOD stuff.

- The Austin/Faarooq promo I was waiting for. Didn't remember it leading to the first Austin/Rock confrontation.

- Jim Cornette's Phil Mushnick rant, although the end the rant is very sad in hindsight, given all the deaths that have happened since Brian Pillman.

- Fun commentary. Vince REALLY gives it to Hogan ("the only thing worse than watching him act is watching him try to wrestle"). JR throws in a zinger about No Holds Barred ("No Profits Allowed"). I also laughed at Vince calling Mushnick a miserable son of a bitch (and before anyone complaints, that - along with "suck it" - were originally censored so it's not a 24/7 bleep). Lawler used his "Brian Christopher thinks Judo is the stuff they make bagels out of" line and I actually laughed at "Janet Reno has so little sex appeal, her gynecologist calls her sir".

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Oh yeah, this episode also has the infamous "Stu is dead" comment. When I saw the scene in Wrestling with Shadows where Bret is informed of the comment, I could never remember any promo where Shawn declared Stu to be dead, so it's nice to be able to piece it all together.

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