ECW on Sci-Fi (5/6/2008)

[PILLS! PILLS! PILLS! 0]

I do agree about Dreamer/Knox though. If Knox just keeps beating Tommy with Tommy never getting a win, it does nothing but bury him and Knox gains nothing. If Dreamer holds his own in a feud and gets maybe 2 out of 5 wins, then Knox could win a blowoff and in theory gain from the feud.

 

Much like how the underdog Rey won a string of matches against Eddy, but Eddy looked really good gaining the final win over Rey in the cage match. Booking guys to look good is much easier than people make it out to be, sometimes.

[Scroby 0]

I do agree about Dreamer/Knox though. If Knox just keeps beating Tommy with Tommy never getting a win, it does nothing but bury him and Knox gains nothing. If Dreamer holds his own in a feud and gets maybe 2 out of 5 wins, then Knox could win a blowoff and in theory gain from the feud.

Again, you need to realize that win and losses in pro wrestling means nothing at all. What matters is how two people look and tell the story in the ring. Tommy's gimmick in pro wrestling is someone who doesn't really win matches but feeds off peoples emotions. Tommy's role in pro wrestling is to make others look good, and he can do that while looking strong in the ring.

 

For example in tonight's match. Yeah Tommy lost against Knox, but it wasn't like Tommy got destoryed for 10 minutes and then lost to Knox's face first spinning ddt on a chair. Tommy looked strong and took the fight to Knox.

 

Why do you think Tommy got so over in ECW? It wasn't because he was winning matches, it was because of the story he was able to tell during his matches. It was the fact that the odds were always stacked against him and when it looked like he was ready to win, someone or something would take the win away and the fans ate it up. Tommy's role and about 95% of wrestlers today, role is to make others look good. People really need to realize this and get away from "OH MY GOD, HE LOST AGAIN! THE BOOKERS MUST BE INSANE!".

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

That's all true...but Tommy Dreamer is too far removed from that time period. Now he's just a guy who doesn't win matches against people that are seen as low card people. Him continually losing doesn't help the person who beats him. There's no momentum behind him like there was in the original ECW where him fighting and losing meant something. Now he's just the guy who has competitive matches and loses. ...to low card people.

[Scroby 0]

I agree with you Hail, but I think if Tommy was put in a good enough feud with someone where the booking wasn't the same crap over and over again, Tommy's role would be great.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I think the real problem with his deal right now is that one week he'll be taking someone to the limit in a nice little match (like tonight) and the next it'll just be a quick loss to a random person.

 

That's Stevie Richards job!

[FroGG_NeaL 0]

Miz and Morrison giving Adamale hell was the best part of the show.

 

Estrada needs to be a fulltime wrestler.

 

Mike Knox is decent now, but seems scared of taking bumps still. The baseball slide spot was cool, though, and he took it like a man.

 

Kelly and Layla looked like they were really beating the fuck out of each other. Kelly still can't dance for shit though.

 

Punk doing Eddie's dive over the top rope from the ring apron into a shoulder drop, (or whatever the fuck it's called. a Quebrada?) and getting up, smiling at Chavo was cool. Kane almost killing Chavo was not.

 

Kofi Kingston is the future. That shit where he rebounds from being thrown into the top rope is ill as hell.

 

Shelton and Kofi are the best thing going for them right now. Benjamin seemed more comfortable talking tonight, and he seems motivated again lately.

 

Having a guest announcer for every match was cool. Richards seemed to be out there to help Adamale learn. But Stevie's voice is so fucked from his neck surgery that I couldn't understand him at some points.

[Jingus 0]

Again, you need to realize that win and losses in pro wrestling means nothing at all.

I'd say the mere fact that people are complaining about Tommy losing means something. I've heard many people make the "wins and losses don't matter" arguement. But they do matter to the fans. An average mark watching the show tonight wouldn't be like "well, Dreamer gave it his best shot and put the rookie over, bah gawd", he'd be saying "why the fuck did they make Dreamer lose to that asshole?".

 

Tommy's gimmick in pro wrestling is someone who doesn't really win matches but feeds off peoples emotions. Tommy's role in pro wrestling is to make others look good, and he can do that while looking strong in the ring.

I know Tommy takes pride in getting other guys over. But sometimes he just can't. (Anyone remember who Justin Credible beat to become world champion?) Like, case in point, a feud he had two years ago which didn't get over... and it was against Mike Knox. Where, again, he was getting beat every week. It didn't work then, and Knox doesn't have Kelly with him now, so he's even more heatless.

 

And let's face it, Knox just isn't very good. No charisma, no mic skills, receeding hairline, wellness-violating body, boring offense, poor match structure, no rapport with the crowd, garners zero reaction when he walks down the ramp. This guy isn't going to draw money. He shouldn't be going over anyone. Compare his utter lack of progess to how over Kingston, Delaney, and Mizorrison have gotten in much less time than they've wasted on Knox. (And I can't believe someone implied that Knox's ring skills are comparable to those of any Guerrero ever, come on.)

 

I think the real problem with his deal right now is that one week he'll be taking someone to the limit in a nice little match (like tonight) and the next it'll just be a quick loss to a random person.

I never really noticed it before, but you're right. Sometimes Tommy will randomly have strong showings which are totally unexpected (wasn't he the first guy to beat Thorn?), sometimes he just has a competitive match and loses in the end, and sometimes he gets squashed like a bug. Problem is, he'll do all three things with the same opponent on alternating weeks.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Dreamer always loses though. That's his gimmick

 

I thought his gimmick was advertising whatever PPV there is this month by wearing it's t-shirt? Eh, I guess he can have two gimmicks.

[cabbageboy 0]

Scroby, I would agree with you about wins/losses more if we're talking about the real ECW. It was the actual storyline there that Dreamer couldn't beat Raven, but here is the caveat: Dreamer wasn't JOBBING to everyone else left and right. In fact he won the vast majority of his non Raven matches, and in fact several of the Raven matches were no decisions or a bunch of strange shit where he was kept strong in the end.

 

Here is one of my key rules of wrestling booking: A babyface that gets screwed and ripped off by cheating heels is the plucky underdog fighting the odds. A babyface that is getting his ass kicked clean in the middle of the ring repeatedly is a jobber (or maybe JTTS). In fact I think a top level face shouldn't be doing clean jobs aside from a rare occasion. When I watched old Vader/Sting matches years ago I wasn't thinking "Wow, Sting is so unselfish putting the big man over clean for the title." I was thinking "Man, Sting isn't much of a hero...Vader is just killing the guy without cheating or anything." Even then though Sting would get some wins in the feud to stay viable.

 

WWE fans have always been much more about the bottom line. Is this guy winning matches? Is he a credible threat? Or is he a jobber? To tie this to Colin Delaney....is there any real reason why I should be rallying behind this kid to see him get a contract? He just gets his ass kicked and 90% of the time isn't even competitive doing so. Based on that he doesn't deserve a contract. Estrada isn't screwing him over, he's just being realistic.

[The Truthiness 0]

Scroby, I would agree with you about wins/losses more if we're talking about the real ECW. It was the actual storyline there that Dreamer couldn't beat Raven, but here is the caveat: Dreamer wasn't JOBBING to everyone else left and right. In fact he won the vast majority of his non Raven matches, and in fact several of the Raven matches were no decisions or a bunch of strange shit where he was kept strong in the end.

 

Here is one of my key rules of wrestling booking: A babyface that gets screwed and ripped off by cheating heels is the plucky underdog fighting the odds. A babyface that is getting his ass kicked clean in the middle of the ring repeatedly is a jobber (or maybe JTTS). In fact I think a top level face shouldn't be doing clean jobs aside from a rare occasion. When I watched old Vader/Sting matches years ago I wasn't thinking "Wow, Sting is so unselfish putting the big man over clean for the title." I was thinking "Man, Sting isn't much of a hero...Vader is just killing the guy without cheating or anything." Even then though Sting would get some wins in the feud to stay viable.

 

WWE fans have always been much more about the bottom line. Is this guy winning matches? Is he a credible threat? Or is he a jobber? To tie this to Colin Delaney....is there any real reason why I should be rallying behind this kid to see him get a contract? He just gets his ass kicked and 90% of the time isn't even competitive doing so. Based on that he doesn't deserve a contract. Estrada isn't screwing him over, he's just being realistic.

 

Jesus Christ.

 

Do you realize that makes no sense at all?

 

Edit: Also Dreamer losing to Knox is acceptable, Knox is getting better and a lot of that has to do with Tommy. It's Tommy's job to make a guy like Knox better, and he has done it well.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I think as long as the top level face does those clean jobs in important matches it's all alright. Like...Cena was pinned clean at WrestleMania and i don't think it took anything from him.

 

To contrast that though...

 

I still don't really look at Shawn Michaels at the same level of top tier guy since he was clean pinned by Kennedy on Raw a while back. That really stuck me somehow in a place of "What the fuck was that?". I mean...I like that he just got beat clean by a guy they want to push up the cards...but the randomness of it just left me cold. It didn't help that HBK just managed to beat him back again later. It's like they took a feud that had some peaks that should have been spaced apart more and crammed it together. Now all I remember of their feud was that Kennedy pinned Michaels clean to very little reaction on Raw...and then lost the feud. I don't really know what either guy got out of that scenerio.

[pochorenella 0]

Punk doing Eddie's dive over the top rope from the ring apron into a shoulder drop, (or whatever the fuck it's called. a Quebrada?) and getting up, smiling at Chavo was cool. Kane almost killing Chavo was not.

It's called an hilo.

[FroGG_NeaL 0]

thank you

[NoCalMike 0]

Scroby, I would agree with you about wins/losses more if we're talking about the real ECW. It was the actual storyline there that Dreamer couldn't beat Raven, but here is the caveat: Dreamer wasn't JOBBING to everyone else left and right. In fact he won the vast majority of his non Raven matches, and in fact several of the Raven matches were no decisions or a bunch of strange shit where he was kept strong in the end.

 

Which is essence is a perfect example of why guys like Dreamer have a harder time succeeding outside of Heyman or Heyman-like booking. You are 100% right on regarding Dreamer's ECW character. He could never get over the Raven hump(well until Wrestlepalooza when everyone knew Raven was leaving) but he still won a good amount of his other matches. He wasn't treated as an underdog job toy to any new guy that the company wanted to get over(not to mention guys that are total garbage and the fans care nothing about). Not only that but because of the way he was booked he came off looking like a badass even in losing. Compare that with that the way he is booked in "ECW" and he is much more of a "goofy jobber walking around in an ECW shirt" type character who never wins.

 

There is a big difference. Of course, it is all moot anyways since "ECW" is not even trying to emulate ECW anymore, so why we should even care is lost on me.