Pledge of Allegiance declared unconstitutional

[Guest BX-#general]

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - A federal appeals court ruled Wednesday that the Pledge of Allegiance is an unconstitutional endorsement of religion and cannot be recited in schools.

 

 

The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals overturned a 1954 act of Congress inserting the phrase "under God" after the words "one nation" in the pledge. The court said the phrase violates the so-called Establishment Clause in the Constitution that requires a separation of church and state.

 

 

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...of_allegiance_3

 

 

 

Damn, thats huge.

[Guest Ripper]

I am actually amazed that it made it this far.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

I would have just advocated taking "Under God" out. I never say that part anyway. I also say "divisible" instead of "indivisible," Southern tendencies rearing their head.

[Guest BookerTman]

What's next, will Canadians stop singing the national anthem because of the "God keep our land, glorious and free", will Britain stop singing "God save the Queen"?

 

Since I'm Canadian and all, what are the words to America's pledge of allegiance? Just curious.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

I pledge alleigance to the flag

Of the United States of America

And to the Republic for which it stands

One Nation, under God, Indivisible

With Liberty and Justice for all.

 

Do those countries make a big-ass deal out of Church-State seperation? We do, so we make sure the two are kept apart as far as possible.

 

I endorse the removal of all religious words from any national anthems or whatnot, unless it's a specificially religious state, like Israel or the Vatican.

[Guest Kingpk]

What the fuck was the point of that? Two words that could easily be taken out makes unconstitutional a pledge that I said every day in class from kidnergarten to the 5th grade? PC has gone WAY too far. Did the athiest who brought this up have absolutely nothing else to do with his life?

 

Hey, I'm not a religious person, but I could give less than a fuck if I have to say "God" once during a pledge.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

It isn't a matter of being PC. The pledge was fine for years before those words were added.

 

Bush's Jesus brigade tried to point out the flaws in the decision by saying that Congress and the Supreme Court, as well as money and the Declaration of Independence have mentions of God.

 

SO WHAT. The fogeys in Congress and the Supreme Court are already set in their ways regardless of what they hear by the age of their majority. Also, the Declaration of Independence was written during a time when Christianity wasn't what it is now. How many Deists do you know? Anyway, Thomas Jefferson was one, and he wrote the damn thing. The money is simply too costly to change by now, and any change would have to be gradual. They're already planning on making it different colors than green, which is beyond me and is an attempt by America to further assimilate itself into the world by losing its own identity rather than use some kind of economic means.

 

But these are SCHOOLS. These kids are still young and impressionable. They can still be moulded and manipulated. They are the future also, so anything done to them is much farther reaching than it seems. Here in my county, we have a damn Reverend on the school board. A MAN OF GOD IS DECIDING WHERE THE HELL MY TAX DOLLARS GO!!!

 

Either way, GOD HAS NO PLACE IN GOVERNMENT OF ANY KIND.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

It's 2 fucking words. If it kills someone to say it than keep your damn mouth shut during that part.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Oh, I do.

[Guest RetroRob215]

I'm an atheist and never say those two words. The fact of the matter is, depending on your teacher in school, you are FORCED to say the Pledge. I have a problem with that not only because of "under god", but also because no child should be forced to do anything. I support whoever decided to bring up this point because it is a good point. Our country sure looks hypocritical when our pledge contradicts our constitution.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

The "under God" language is clearly constitutional if it's just a de minimus statement- not promoting any religion.

[Guest Some Guy]

It is already illegal to force a person to say "under God" or the Pledge. Why make something that a lot of people enjoy or don't care about illegal to make a small minority happy? I think 90% of Americans beleive in God (I'm not one of them and I don't haev any problem with the pledge) so why should 10% control what 90% can or can't do? I thought this was a Democracy.

[Guest Vyce]

This is why I FUCKING HATE liberals.

 

And of course this is political correctness gone wrong. It all started because some douche bag took offense to his daughter saying the pledge in her 2nd grade class. Because of him, the pledge of allegiance has become unconstitutional. NOT edited to take out the 2 words that are making all of this fuss - THE WHOLE DAMN THING.

 

I'm so tired of this shit. I'm tired of the MINORITY always ruling here. The majority of Americans have no problem with the pledge, but because of a few self-rightious, self-important jizz-bags, the pledge is now unconstitutional. Fuck them. Every liberal atheist like this asshole is JUST AS BAD as the religious wackos they purport to save us all from. They want to protect us from the Jesus freaks running our lives? I want someone to protect me from these fucking crusaders out there who want to "sanitize" everything. Bastards.

 

I sooooo hope the Supreme Court rips them a new asshole on this one.

 

[EDIT: Typos. I can't spell ]

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

From the AP Wire:

 

"In Canada, where President Bush was taking part in an economic summit, White House spokesman said: 'The president's reaction was that this ruling is ridiculous.'"

 

Further:

 

"The ruling was also attacked on Capitol Hill, with Senate Majority Leader Thomas Daschle, D-S.D., calling it 'just nuts.'"

 

And later:

 

"Harvard scholar Laurence Tribe predicted that the U.S. Supreme Court will certainly reverse the decision unless the 9th Circuit reverses itself itself. 'I would bet an awful lot on that,' Tribe said."

[Guest bob_barron]

If you don't like it don't say it.

 

No need to go to court and make it unconstitutional.

[Guest EricMM]

Hey don't blame liberals for stupidity. I watched TV today and I saw some lady say "Clearly the word god supports religion so its bad" Whatever, it's so nothing to any of these kids IMO.

 

If anything I think forcing kids to pledge alliegence to a country is a little weird. I mean by the third grade I totally didn't hear WHAT I was saying anymore. It doesn't even make much sense anymore, especially how it sounds:

I pledge allegence to the flag of the united states of america (fine),,,,,

And to the republic,,(huge break) for which it (THE FLAG) stands, one nation, under god, indivisable, with liberty and justice for all.

 

It's like one sentence. But the pauses sound like full stops especially after the first america. the pledge makes no sense

 

-Eric

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Article Six of the United States Constitution says that the Constitution is the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND, and to say that all this is "under God" in a pledge of ones allegeiance to the same land is contradictory.

 

Either way, think of this as a National version of what us people in South Carolina had to go through with the Confederate flag on the State House(which I ENDORSED keeping up, dammit!!).

[Guest KoR Fungus]

Eh shrug, it's a stupid argument, but before you all go off on those FUCKING LIBERALS~! for having no life trying to get the words "under God" taken out, remember that some religious people obviously went to just as much effort fifty years ago to get them put in. I have no problem with just not saying the words (or the pledge, for that matter), and I think anyone that does needs to get a life. However, there are freaks without lives on both sides of this debate.

 

My opinion is that the words never should have been added, they were a lightning rod to begin with, and it's not surprising at all that some court would try to remove them at some time. The Supreme Court will probably overturn it, but yeah, I don't care either way.

[Guest Vyce]

I'm Johnny Patriot, so I believe that, YES, you should say the pledge. I always had a problem with the kids who didn't.

 

Eh shrug, it's a stupid argument, but before you all go off on those FUCKING LIBERALS~! for having no life trying to get the words "under God" taken out, remember that some religious people obviously went to just as much effort fifty years ago to get them put in.

 

I didn't say that exactly, but I DID say that the liberal extremists (which is what this guy is) are no different than the religious freaks.

 

It's the EXACT same mentality. They all want to save us from ourselves. The only difference is that one group wants to save us from sin, the other wants to save us from independent thought.

[Guest KoR Fungus]

<<<I'm Johnny Patriot, so I believe that, YES, you should say the pledge. I always had a problem with the kids who didn't.>>>

 

Totally disagreed. Patriotism should not be forced down kid's throats. And while I agree that getting rid of the entire pledge because you don't like two words is really stupid, if it stops people from harassing kids that don't say the pledge, it's probably a good thing.

 

<<<I didn't say that exactly, but I DID say that the liberal extremists (which is what this guy is) are no different than the religious freaks.

 

It's the EXACT same mentality. They all want to save us from ourselves. The only difference is that one group wants to save us from sin, the other wants to save us from independent thought.>>>

 

Yeah, agreed, extremists are always bad, be they liberal, conservative, religious or whatever. Forcing your morality down other people's throats is bad. Still, liberal extremists don't bother me too much because they don't do much of anything. Shrug, some lifeless person wants to get the pledge changed. I can't get nearly as worked up over that as, say, the entire state of Kansas making it policy to preach the Bible to their students in public schools when it flies in the face of science. Liberal extremists are just annoying, religious extremists are actually detrimental.

[Guest chirs3]

I'm not actively seeking the removal of the words, I couldn't care less. But I DO understand that it is unconstitutional. People who are outraged that those two words won't be in there pretty much are advertising they want the Pledge to BE a religious statement.

 

It's the same thing with the 10 commandmants in schools. The nuts said "They're a code that all should live by!" So someone said "Post the last seven (thou shalt not kill, steal, adulterate - the ones that don't include faith)", and the nuts were aghast that someone would suggest such a thing, which pretty much says they don't want it up as a moral code, they want it up for religious purposes. Bah.

 

I also liked that a woman on the local news said "I think it's a question of patriotism - if you don't wanna say the pledge of allegiance, then get out!" (she meant "of the country") Patriots like her make me proud. [/sarcasm]

 

And some senators on C-Span were saying how removing those two words undoes everything that we fought for, all the way back to the 1770's! Little does this idiot realize the Pledge was made in... what, 1942? And the words "Under God" added in 1954. We went through the Revolutionary, Civil, Spanish-American, and 1.5 World Wars without a pledge of allegiance, and ALL of those without a pledge including the words "under god".

[Guest J*ingus]

The funny thing is just how much "patriotism" was basically an invention of this century, and has not been around for all that long. The Pledge? This century. All the wacky rules about how you should treat an American flag? Also this century. Singing the National Anthem before gatherings or events? Ditto.

 

The "under God" language is clearly constitutional if it's just a de minimus statement- not promoting any religion.

 

No, it is quite clearly Judeo-Christian language. What other religions refer to any supreme being by the word "God"? Islam refuses to use that term, and plenty of other religions don't believe in one great omnipotent being.

 

I'm Johnny Patriot, so I believe that, YES, you should say the pledge. I always had a problem with the kids who didn't.

 

That's one thing that super-patriotism always annoyed me with: everyone expected me to love my country and be ready to die for it, for the simple reason that I happened to be born here. If I was an immigrant, that would be one thing, but come on, I didn't choose this country. (And don't say "if you don't like it, then leave!" either, that's a shallow copout that doesn't look at the underlying issues.)

 

If they're going to make a big deal over it, just take out the two words. Saying the pledge actually flows a better rhythym without them.

[Guest bob_barron]

This century? You mean that stuff was all made in the last two years? I didnt know that.

 

Its stupid that they banned the pledge cause of two little words. Hopefully the Supreme Court will overturn this

[Guest chirs3]

Whoa, wait.

 

They banned The Pledge? I thought they deemed those two words unconstitutional and removed them. They banned the entire thing?

 

I know the story above says it, but I had heard differently. Upon double checking, it looks like they did. That IS stupid.

[Guest GenerationNever]

I think it's a good idea to get rid of all this pledge stuff. I'll pledge to whatever I want, I won't be forced to be a patriot. By the way, for those who want us to get out if we don't like it...I'd like to say the same thing to here. She is probably European, who are themselves immigrants. I'm Native American and we too are immigrants from Asia, we just got here first.

 

We are all immigrants.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

News flash: Conservative extremists are just as bad as liberal ones.

 

I, honestly, don't care what the state of California thinks about the pledge. I think they are going overboard, but whatever.

 

Personally, I'm Christian. However, I'm not going to stand up and preach to you all... I don't care that much. Just don't bash my political party because there are extremists in every different party and every different religion (INCLUDING ATHEISM).. and ever different...

[Guest J*ingus]

Um, thanks for pointing out that incredibly embarrassing little faux pas Bob. I of course meant the 20th century.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

I'm not an Atheist or an Agnostic. I'm a Nothingist. Those previous two titles imply a lack of belief in the Christian God, whereas I find all religion to be bunk.

 

Now, as with most unconstitutional things, only the offending part of the matter will be taken out. The pledge will survive(as it should), but the two words will go.

 

Sometimes I wonder if people were complaining about liberals back during the Civil Rights movement. I know it's totally different, but it was our own Cultural Revolution of the mid-century, and I feel that this may be the start of a new one.

[Guest DrTom]

As an atheist, I just skipped those two words when it was time to say them. Not too difficult, really. If people are that bent about two little words, then try to get them taken out, but to have the whole Pledge thrown out is just plain dumb. I think it's fairly safe to say the Supreme Court will overturn this one.

 

As for the "under God" clause violating the separation of church and state... it really doesn't. Two words in the Pledge do not mean that Congress is establishing a national religion. The reason "In God We Trust" can still be on our currency is because it's an homage to the fact that this country was founded by Christians and built on Christian priniciples; it's not an endorsement of one modern religion over another. The "uder God" clause in the Pledge should be treated the same way. No one's forcing a religion on anyone with those two words. Yes, I'm an atheist who thinks it's petty and silly to remove the "under God" clause from the Pledge. The ridiculous oversensitivity of recent years needs to stop somewhere.

[Guest chirs3]

I'm currently undecided - half of me wants to be Athiest, half of me wants to believe in something. Blah.

 

After actually thinking about it, I wouldn't mind abolishing the Pledge altogether. And why do we have to do it every school day? (not HAVE to, you know what I mean) Pledge our allegiance once, sign a damn paper for it. It's not like it'll change overnight.

 

The two words "under God" don't bother me, but saying them in the Pledge has become reflex - I can't say the Pledge without them. Conspiracy theory, but maybe that's what... THEY... want.

 

Best solution: Keep the words, and just make a very large announcement to every student in America that those words, or the entire Pledge if they want, is completely and totally optional.