Pledge of Allegiance declared unconstitutional

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

It already is in my school district.

 

You just have to stand respectfully.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

"That's one thing that super-patriotism always annoyed me with: everyone expected me to love my country and be ready to die for it, for the simple reason that I happened to be born here. "

 

So you don't love your country, and you won't die for it?

[Guest J*ingus]

I think the United States is certainly one of the better countries in the world. I wouldn't call it the best, just because I've never been outside of it and have nothing to judge it against. "Loving" it is a bit strong.

 

But as for dying for it? That's the job of people who volunteer to be soldiers. I don't understand them, it's not a job that I would ask for, but god bless 'em for doing it.

[Guest GenerationNever]

I wouldn't WANT to die for anything, except maybe my future children. Thing is, you shouldn't be forced to love the country you were born in, and you shouldn't be critisised for not doing so.

[Guest jimmy no nose]

This reminds me of this time a few years ago at my graduation they had everyone say the pledge of allegiance and rather than just standing while everyone else said it or remaining seated, my dad stood up and faced backwards. Apparently it caused quite a stir with the people around him. I thought it was pretty funny when my mom told me.

[Guest Some Guy]

Well your father was trying to make a scene. If you don't want to say it just be respectful of other and sit or stand there and shut up.

 

Here's another example of the leftist media in full power. I was watching the local news last night and they did this story, rather than interviewing 2 Conservaitves and 2 Pinkos they just went to "The People's Republic of" Cambridge and interviewed one kid who was clearly stoned who went on and on about how it says God on money and what not, then to some woman who liked it and then to some man who liked. Not a single conservative voice.

[Guest EricMM]

Maybe they just couldn't find a Conservative voice, maybe they were in a very liberal community; I don't know very much about Cambridge, but it sounds liberal.

 

I don't think it's the medias responsability to go on the street and search for every viewpoint when interviewing people. I think they do make an effort, lord knows I think that sometimes Palestinian sympathizers get a bit too much time, but I think Israeli sympathizers do too.

 

Either way I doubt that it's very intentional on the media's part, I don't think they're going "rawr, lets teach everyone to burn flags and hate bush!" If anything I think it's more likely to find liberals in cities, and most major news takes place in cities. But I could be wrong lord knows.

 

It just pisses me off when people complain about the liberal media, as if this country wasn't split pretty evenly during the last election etc.

 

But hey, arguing is the American way, we were doing it loooong before me and you, it's very important!

 

-Eric

[Guest Some Guy]

I don't think it is a massive leftist conspirisy, rather that 90% of the media thinks that way and knows where to go to get people to back them up. Cambrige is where Harvard (of Chris Lewinski fame ) is. So yes they are pretty much further to teh left than Lenin. And I do think that the news should provide voices from both sides of the issues especially when they say they will/so in their comercials, "you get the whole story."

Guys like Rush Limbaugh and Alan Colmes and whoever else come with no false pretences about where their political alliegences lie.

[Guest hardyz1]

I last said the pledge in 7th grade, I believe. By the time 12th grade rolled around, I didn't even bother to stand up.

 

By the way, the pledge has been around since 1892, and has gone through a couple changes, most notably the addition of "under God" in 1954.

 

A history of the pledge

[Guest ant_7000]

Well, I think if people want to do the pledge do it and if people don't want do the pledge fine but make them come off as an outcast. And the people saying FUCKING LIBERIALS uh I could've sworn that there were Democrats and Republicans doing the Pledge of Allegiance on Capitol Hill and it only applied to 10 states. I kind of mixed (As generally) on the subject which is petty anyway, Its good to take pride in your country and be proud of tradition and all, but it isn't right for the Government to force patriotism and religon (some will say its Idle worship) on people neither. I don't do the Pledge anymore so it doesn't effect me, but I do have some conflicts with some of the of words that are said and Under God isn't one of them.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

then try to get them taken out, but to have the whole Pledge thrown out is just plain dumb

You're the one who keeps agitating against judicial activism, Tom. It isn't dumb, it's proper procedure. If a bad law's on the books, the courts throw it out and send it back to the legislature to rewrite.

 

My position is that the decision was quite correct (and anyone who knows me and/or has read my previous posts in this forum should know that my patriotism is unquestionable). Whether or not kids are forced to recite the Pledge is irrelevant. If it's the official Pledge of the United States, it should be changed - as should the motto "In God we trust" on all legal tender.

 

The original Pledge is worth reading: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all." I have no problem with saying that. I have a problem with saying "under God." I won't say that, and I don't like the fact that it is part of my country's oath of loyalty.

[Guest DrTom]

"If it's the official Pledge of the United States, it should be changed - as should the motto 'In God we trust' on all legal tender."

 

How does either violate the division of church and state? How does either lead to Congress establishing a national religion? The only argument I can see that could possibly support this is that it was an act of Congress that added "under God" in 1954, which certainly looks dubious in light of the establishment clause.

 

The same type of oversensitive ninny who would bitch about "under God" being in the Pledge is the same type who tells their Congressman that "The Sopranos" is offensive to Italian-Americans. You're offended, boo-hoo. When these people can show me where the right never to be offended exists, then I might be more sympathetic to their concerns.

 

If the "under God" clause is such a problem, it can simply be stricken and the Pledge can revert to its original wording. I have no problem with that solution; in fact, the Pledge simply flows better with those two words removed. But to throw the *whole thing* out because a small oversensitive minority whines about it is ridiculous.

 

I think this will be overturned, but I also think the "under God" clause is living on borrowed time. Whether or not children are forced to recite the Pledge in either form is irrelevant to me.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

You're offended, boo-hoo.

You're being an idiot. I'm not offended, I just don't think it needs to be there. And if you really can't see how the word "God" violates the separation of church and state when it appears on official government documents, you're a blind idiot too. But personally, I don't think you're that clueless; I just think you're doing what comes naturally to you: sticking to a stupid argument because you don't have the guts or the honesty to admit that you were full of shit in the beginning.

But to throw the *whole thing* out because a small oversensitive minority whines about it is ridiculous.

What's ridiculous is your willful misrepresentation of the ruling. I've already explained that throwing the whole thing out is the only thing the courts can ethically do. It isn't their business to rewrite policy. You've always been against "judicial activism" in the past; it's hypocritical to advocate it now. Maybe you should try getting a firmer grasp on your own system of government instead of continuing to spew ignorant and groundless opinions on internet message boards.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Wow, keep blaming liberals.

 

You conservatives who monger war and try to flood the budget with unnecessary defense bills.

 

You conservatives who try to control the lives of every man, woman and child because of your ideals. (Roe v. Wade, legal surveillance on friendly soil)

 

You conservatives who blindly protect our own interests with little to no regard for the actual people that are being wronged (Gulf War)

 

You conservatives that blindly blame everything that is not white for your problems... (Obvious racial profiling against everyone Muslim, Blatantly taking Israel's side from the beginning in a conflict that we were supposed to be neutral)

 

Stop blaming liberals for all your problems. It's simply incorrect and it's making you look stupid in the process.

 

Do I agree with the words being taken out? No. If you don't agree with the pledge, stand respectfully and don't try to make a damn scene to prove your point. That simply shows that you are a jackass and a hypocrite that wants attention.

 

Do I agree with everything liberals do? No, but can you honestly say you agree with everything conservatives do as well?

 

Am I a terrorist for saying that Palestine isn't totally at fault for the conflict above? No. They are also at fault, but blatantly taking Israel's side from the beginning is utter bullshit.

 

Get your heads out of your asses.

[Guest godthedog]

Wow, keep blaming liberals.

 

You conservatives who monger war and try to flood the budget with unnecessary defense bills.

 

You conservatives who try to control the lives of every man, woman and child because of your ideals. (Roe v. Wade, legal surveillance on friendly soil)

 

You conservatives who blindly protect our own interests with little to no regard for the actual people that are being wronged (Gulf War)

 

You conservatives that blindly blame everything that is not white for your problems... (Obvious racial profiling against everyone Muslim, Blatantly taking Israel's side from the beginning in a conflict that we were supposed to be neutral)

 

Stop blaming liberals for all your problems. It's simply incorrect and it's making you look stupid in the process.

 

Do I agree with the words being taken out? No. If you don't agree with the pledge, stand respectfully and don't try to make a damn scene to prove your point. That simply shows that you are a jackass and a hypocrite that wants attention.

 

Do I agree with everything liberals do? No, but can you honestly say you agree with everything conservatives do as well?

 

Am I a terrorist for saying that Palestine isn't totally at fault for the conflict above? No. They are also at fault, but blatantly taking Israel's side from the beginning is utter bullshit.

 

Get your heads out of your asses.

hey, i know a great way to get back at the one or two people in this thread who have grossly overgeneralized liberals...let's grossly overgeneralize conservatives!!!

 

this is gonna sound pretty out there, but...honestly, why do we even have a pledge? it isn't legally binding or anything, it's just a symbolic ceremony or institution. half the kids who say it either have no idea what it means or don't give a shit, so why make them say it anyway?

 

i'm not saying you shouldn't love your country, i'm just asking what it actually has to do with being educated. does saying the pledge every morning aid the classroom in any way? does it help kids learn faster, does it help make them better citizens?

[Guest DrTom]

"I'm not offended, I just don't think it needs to be there."

 

I wasn't saying that YOU personally were offended; I thought it was clear in context that I was referring to the type of people who whine and complain to elected officials and/or sue whenever they see something that upsets them.

 

"And if you really can't see how the word "God" violates the separation of church and state when it appears on official government documents, you're a blind idiot too."

 

Wow, what a convincing argument. It amuses me when you criticize people for ad hominem attacks and then write tripe like that. It's obvious that you're doing what you always do: blithely refute a point you disagree with, and substitute bland and unoriginal insults for anything approaching a cohesive argument. It's a lot easier to say, "you're a blind idiot" than to, you know, offer some fucking proof of your point, isn't it?

 

Perhaps "God" violates the separation of church and state when the words "Everyone must worship our" are placed before it. But a simple acknowledgement of the country's history is not an endorsement of one faith over another.

 

"You've always been against "judicial activism" in the past; it's hypocritical to advocate it now."

 

I don't see this as judicial activism. The court would not be inventing legislation or rewriting policy -- and no, "under God" in the Pledge does not constitute a policy of some kind.

 

Most Constitutional scholars I've seen interviewed expect the Supreme Court to overturn the original ruling. Interesting, then, that they voted to allow federal money to be used in the form of vouchers to pay for religious schooling. I would think that blurs the line between church and state more than "under God" in the Pledge does.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

That was the point, godthedog.

 

If they want to blindly bash liberals due to one stupid issue, I'll point out three issues and situations on which they were stupid and generalize them based on those.

[Guest RetroRob215]

Wow, keep blaming liberals.

 

You conservatives who monger war and try to flood the budget with unnecessary defense bills.

 

You conservatives who try to control the lives of every man, woman and child because of your ideals. (Roe v. Wade, legal surveillance on friendly soil)

 

You conservatives who blindly protect our own interests with little to no regard for the actual people that are being wronged (Gulf War)

 

You conservatives that blindly blame everything that is not white for your problems... (Obvious racial profiling against everyone Muslim, Blatantly taking Israel's side from the beginning in a conflict that we were supposed to be neutral)

 

Stop blaming liberals for all your problems. It's simply incorrect and it's making you look stupid in the process.

 

Do I agree with the words being taken out? No. If you don't agree with the pledge, stand respectfully and don't try to make a damn scene to prove your point. That simply shows that you are a jackass and a hypocrite that wants attention.

 

Do I agree with everything liberals do? No, but can you honestly say you agree with everything conservatives do as well?

 

Am I a terrorist for saying that Palestine isn't totally at fault for the conflict above? No. They are also at fault, but blatantly taking Israel's side from the beginning is utter bullshit.

 

Get your heads out of your asses.

hey, i know a great way to get back at the one or two people in this thread who have grossly overgeneralized liberals...let's grossly overgeneralize conservatives!!!

I wouldn't call that a gross generalization at all. IMO, conservatives cause many more problems in our country than liberals.

 

As for the pledge. Keep it around, but keep it out of schools (public or private).

[Guest DrTom]

"IMO, conservatives cause many more problems in our country than liberals."

 

The problem is, the woefully-misnamed "Great Society," the brainchild of a liberal administration, has caused a lot of our societal problems, which neither side has been able to eradicate.

 

And no, I'm not a conservative.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

We can name hundreds of programs by each side of the political spectrum that are screwing us up right now, so let's just leave it at "Everyone makes mistakes, stop blaming one party for all your problems."

[Guest -Cutthroat-]

That is so evil...

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Get off my lawn, Cutthroat.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

Sometimes I wonder if people were complaining about liberals back during the Civil Rights movement.

 

Just so you know, the Civil Rights movement was led by Republicans.

[Guest DrTom]

Update: the judge who issued the ruling indefinitely suspended its implementation. I just saw that on the news a few minutes ago.

 

The cretin who brought the case in the first place is now on a crusade to stamp out every mention of "God" in the city of Washington DC. I'm an atheist, probably to the point of being anti-religious, but this clown is giving all atheists a bad name.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

What the fuck are YOU talking about?

 

That was aimed at Spicy.

[Guest RetroRob215]

The cretin who brought the case in the first place is now on a crusade to stamp out every mention of "God" in the city of Washington DC.

I'm also anti-religion, but that is taking it a bit too far. As long as "God" isn't forced on anyone, like it can be in the pledge, I'm happy.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

That was aimed at Spicy.

 

What'd you say, cool guy. I missed it.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

I asked you what the fuck you were talking about when referring to the fact that CONSERVATIVES led the Civil Rights movement... you're freakin' crazy.

[Guest J*ingus]

Just so you know, the Civil Rights movement was led by Republicans.

But the Republican party in the 1800's was the LIBERAL one. It didn't morph into a conservative party until well into the 20th century.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

They did... learn a little history. Southern Dem's were opposed, other Dem's were on the fence... and northern and many other Republicans led the movement.