Pledge of Allegiance declared unconstitutional

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Every bill that made any difference was proposed and/or signed by LBJ or JFK.

 

Dispute that, please.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

It didn't morph into a conservative party until well into the 20th century.

 

morph?

 

It wasn't LABELED as a conservative party until well into the 20th century.

[Guest J*ingus]

Are you saying that the Republican party isn't a conservative one?

 

But the fact of the matter is that around the Civil War era is that the Republicans were the leftist party, while the Democrats were the rightists.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

...the 1800's Civil Rights movement did, in effect, nothing but give Black MEN citizenship. I'd hardly call that a movement, they still had zip when it comes to rights.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

Are you saying that the Republican party isn't a conservative one?

 

I'm saying that the terms liberal and conservative are highly subjective when discussing a period of over 200 years.

 

Every bill that made any difference was proposed and/or signed by LBJ or JFK.

 

Dispute that, please.

 

69% of Democrats in the Senate voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964. 82% of Republicans in the Senate voted for it.

 

63% of Democrats in Congress voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and it was signed into law by Democrat President Lyndon B. Johnson. 79% of Republicans in Congress voted for it.

 

Dispute that, please.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Okay Mr. Statistics, look up some numbers on Northern vs. Southern Democrats that voted against those bills.

 

Another admission you should make: If you go against the will of your constituents while voting in congress, what chance do you have to be re-elected?

 

Hmm?

 

Dispute THAT.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

If you go against the will of your constituents while voting in congress, what chance do you have to be re-elected?

 

If you go against the will of your morals, principles, and ethics while voting in congress, what chance do you have to be a respectable human being?

 

I can't believe your trying to DEFEND someone opposed to civil rights. You'd be all over me if I said something like that.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

No, I have the mind of a politician...

 

Let's be real, being in approval of a bill that is that unpopular in your state/district would be crucifixion... and politicians, even if they want the bill to pass, may vote it down in knowing that there is enough support for it to fail... and, in effect, keep their district on your side.

 

You cannot tell me that you would risk losing a plush job like one of a Congressman because of one vote that won't really matter...

 

And actually, as a representative of your district, you are pledging that you will perform as the voice of your constituents.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

because of one vote that won't really matter...

 

Bullshit. There's only 100 votes in the Senate.

 

And your comments pretty much sum up why so many people despise and distrust the government.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

Is it not true, though?

 

Everything to get re-elected, right?

 

If you don't realize it is that way, then you are a complete and utter idealistic fool.

 

 

EDIT: Also, while there ARE 100 votes in the senate, divide it up into southern vs. northern and the north has more votes regardless... California was never a big advocate of segregation, and if that's the only state in the 'south' (halfway in the south) that votes yes on the bill... it still passes.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

Is it not true, though?

 

Everything to get re-elected, right?

 

Oh it's true. It's damn true .

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

It really is

 

No matter how sad it is, it's the truth.

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

"Just so you know, the Civil Rights movement was led by Republicans."

 

Because I am an idiot, I didn't know that. The Republican party of that era was considered the more liberal/moderate party, since the word Democrat was synonymous with "Southern good ol' boys." Only during the second half of the Nixon tenure did the Republican party start down the road to conservatism, and the label was completely glued on during the Reagan administration.

 

As for what you people are talking about now, I'm not really paying attention.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

...how do you explain LBJ and JFK then?

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

That's what I meant. During the 60s, the two parties were moderate. Kennedy was one of the new breed of Democrats, and Johnson was also. For the most part, Johnson's administration was simply living out the wishes of the Kennedy administration as well as holding the torch of New Deal socialism thirty years later. The parity ended with Watergate.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

That's true, you're right of course.

 

I was thinking "...Nixon era? But..."

 

lol...

[Guest Kotzenjunge]

Wow, I surprised myself with my explanation. Ever notice how you're never as dumb as you think you are? It'd odd, because I always think I'm really stupid, yet when I need to I can explain things concisely and well.

 

I used to think I always failed any essays I had to write in High School. But that's neither here nor there.

[Guest Tyler McClelland]

I was always good at those. My teachers loved my bullshit when I didn't even research the stuff

 

Your explanation was, more or less, correct though. When you think of a party, you more or less think of the president and whatnot... but you're right.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

Wow, keep blaming liberals.

 

You conservatives who monger war and try to flood the budget with unnecessary defense bills.

 

You conservatives who try to control the lives of every man, woman and child because of your ideals. (Roe v. Wade, legal surveillance on friendly soil)

 

You conservatives who blindly protect our own interests with little to no regard for the actual people that are being wronged (Gulf War)

 

You conservatives that blindly blame everything that is not white for your problems... (Obvious racial profiling against everyone Muslim, Blatantly taking Israel's side from the beginning in a conflict that we were supposed to be neutral)

 

Stop blaming liberals for all your problems. It's simply incorrect and it's making you look stupid in the process.

 

Do I agree with the words being taken out? No. If you don't agree with the pledge, stand respectfully and don't try to make a damn scene to prove your point. That simply shows that you are a jackass and a hypocrite that wants attention.

 

Do I agree with everything liberals do? No, but can you honestly say you agree with everything conservatives do as well?

 

Am I a terrorist for saying that Palestine isn't totally at fault for the conflict above? No. They are also at fault, but blatantly taking Israel's side from the beginning is utter bullshit.

 

Get your heads out of your asses.

I blame Atheist Socialist for this entire mess. Not all socialist, Tom Daschle was upset about this, and all atheist Dr.Tom had no problems with it.

 

How do we monger war? They attacked us and want to kill us. War is sometimes the only option. It might be hard for the socialist to understand that you can't solve everything with a hug.

 

Let's see we cut defense spending and looked what happened. But it would be better to have univeral health care. That's worked wonders in Canada.

 

Just like the idiot in California who tried to to force is atheism on people.

 

Let me guess you're outraged that millions of Iraqi's are dieing, and it's the fault of the United States. Get a clue

 

We don't blame minorites we blame pc liberals who think everything can be solved with hand outs. God forbid you advocate hard work , because if you do your called a racist.

 

We're supposed to be neutral? Why the hell are we supposed to be neutral. Is it because Isreal is fighting against people that target innocent civilians. The Palestinians get money fro the U.S. and when the crackdown on terrorist they'll get more.

 

That's the funniest statement ever. Liberals would never blame EVERYTHING on conservatives.

 

Don't lie and tell me you're a moderate.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

...

 

Can't really see how this discussion ended up over here. Anyway, to address Tom's post:

 

Interesting, then, that they voted to allow federal money to be used in the form of vouchers to pay for religious schooling. I would think that blurs the line between church and state more than "under God" in the Pledge does

Not really. I see it as writing a cheque rather than giving a gift voucher. That same approach has worked better in grants to developing countries by several orders of magnitude. I don't have a problem with the vouchers. No one's forcing anyone to attend a religious school, and if the religious schools maintain accredition I don't see why children shouldn't be permitted to attend them.

 

Your position on the pledge seems to be predicated on a laissez-faire "it's history, not religion" approach. Well and good. However, when it is the official oath of loyalty to the country it shouldn't reflect history. The Constitution designates black people as three-fifths of a person for the purpose of the census. We don't honour that any more; why then should we honour a couple of words thrust into the original Pledge half a century after it was written? They were inserted for contemptible reasons and they have no right to remain there. As Thomas Jefferson said, America is not founded in any way on the Judeo-Christian religion, and the currency and the Pledge should reflect that.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Wow, keep blaming liberals.

 

You conservatives who monger war and try to flood the budget with unnecessary defense bills.>>>

 

 

Amazingly enough, defense is actually listed as a duty of government in the Constitution.

 

Can't say the same for Social Security, Medicare, etc.

 

Ironic, huh?

 

 

<<<You conservatives who try to control the lives of every man, woman and child because of your ideals. (Roe v. Wade, legal surveillance on friendly soil)>>>

 

 

Oh, I LOVE this. Conservatives are trying to run people's lives.

 

Umm, I don't think it was conservatives who created the PC craze that has paralyzed actual thought on college campuses.

 

 

<<<You conservatives who blindly protect our own interests with little to no regard for the actual people that are being wronged (Gulf War)>>>

 

 

Oh, gee, that IS bad.

 

Just checking---why in the world SHOULD we worry about OTHER peoples' problems?

 

They're not OUR problems. They don't impact US.

 

Our government is SUPPOSED to worry about American concerns above all else.

 

 

<<<You conservatives that blindly blame everything that is not white for your problems.>>>

 

 

At least libs don't stereotype, huh?

 

Thank God for that.

 

 

<<<.. (Obvious racial profiling against everyone Muslim>>>

 

 

Just checking---who do most int'l terrorists TEND to be?

 

 

<<<, Blatantly taking Israel's side from the beginning in a conflict that we were supposed to be neutral)>>>

 

 

Who said we were EVER supposed to be neutral? Israel is our ally and Arafat is a sub-human monkey.

 

 

<<<Stop blaming liberals for all your problems. It's simply incorrect and it's making you look stupid in the process.>>>

 

 

But, again, you don't do that whole stereotyping thing, right?

 

 

<<<Do I agree with the words being taken out? No. If you don't agree with the pledge, stand respectfully and don't try to make a damn scene to prove your point. That simply shows that you are a jackass and a hypocrite that wants attention.

 

Do I agree with everything liberals do? No, but can you honestly say you agree with everything conservatives do as well?>>>

 

 

No---but somehow, liberals get off a bit easier.

 

Remember how the 1980's are STILL called the Decade of Greed?

 

Why aren't the 1990's called that when the problems in the '90's were FAR worse?

 

 

<<<Am I a terrorist for saying that Palestine isn't totally at fault for the conflict above? No.>>>

 

 

No, you're just painfully naive.

 

 

<<<They are also at fault, but blatantly taking Israel's side from the beginning is utter bullshit.>>>

 

 

Hmm, Israel is our ally. Been that way for years.

 

We're supposed to be "neutral" when an ally of ours is facing extinction, eh?

 

Man, you are all about sticking by your allies, huh?

 

 

<<<Get your heads out of your asses.>>>

 

 

You seem to do fine with yours in that position.

-=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

I wouldn't call that a gross generalization at all. IMO, conservatives cause many more problems in our country than liberals.

 

As for the pledge. Keep it around, but keep it out of schools (public or private). >>>

 

 

BWA HA HA HA!

 

Conservatives cause more problems?

 

Hmm, I could mention that Clinton's diligent SEC appointees did wonders when it came to keeping tabs on massive problems of companies.

 

Basically accelerating China's ballistic missile program by about 10 years---not exactly a move made by conservatives.

 

Yup, liberals are the good ones.

-=Mike

[Guest TheMikeSC]

What the fuck are YOU talking about?

 

That was aimed at Spicy. >>>

 

 

More Republicans voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 than Democrats.

 

Heck, a Republican freed the slaves.

-=Mike

 

...GOP 2, Democrats 0

[Guest TheMikeSC]

Every bill that made any difference was proposed and/or signed by LBJ or JFK.

 

Dispute that, please. >>>

 

 

JFK did approximately squat in his administration. He didn't do a darned thing and black leaders were beyond annoyed with him.

 

And, LBJ SIGNED the bill---but who PASSED it in Congress? Hint---not Democrats.

 

Who was it who forced integration of Southern universities and public schools? Hint---not a Democrat.

-=Mike

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Incidentally, I should mention that I think the lawsuit is frivolous anyway, despite the fact that I support it on principle. Essentially, this man is saying that the Pledge does not reflect his vision of the United States - and that it should, because the Pledge should encompass all Americans, not just those who subscribe to the Judeo-Christian mythology. This is a valid and debatable claim. However, the Court has already ruled that it is unconstitutional to force children to recite it, and the issue of the motto on legal tender is fairly irrelevant. I think it would be better if neither Pledge nor motto contained the word "God," but I don't think it'll make or break the Republic. I don't see this as a slippery slope and I think it's duplicitous to argue that it is one. Would the state of the Union be improved if the offending words were removed? Yes. Would the improvement be significant in any way? No. Does the case have validity? Yes. Should it be our first priority? No.

[Guest Ravenbomb]

George Carlin's gonna have some fun with this, I bet anything he will...

[Guest GenerationNever]

You're the one who keeps agitating against judicial activism, Tom. It isn't dumb, it's proper procedure. If a bad law's on the books, the courts throw it out and send it back to the legislature to rewrite.

 

My position is that the decision was quite correct (and anyone who knows me and/or has read my previous posts in this forum should know that my patriotism is unquestionable). Whether or not kids are forced to recite the Pledge is irrelevant. If it's the official Pledge of the United States, it should be changed - as should the motto "In God we trust" on all legal tender.

 

The original Pledge is worth reading: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all." I have no problem with saying that. I have a problem with saying "under God." I won't say that, and I don't like the fact that it is part of my country's oath of loyalty.

Marney, I agree completly. I too think it is forcing Judeo-Christian beliefs on us. But what can we do? There are so many "conservative" Christians in the White House and in our schools. This is especally true where I live, Alabama. I agree with some of what Liberals say, except I'm Pro-Life.

[Guest justsoyouknow]

Hmm...so if the word "God" is unconstitutional, then is "god" constitutional? "God" is a clear reference to the Catholic religion, while "god" can refer to multiple religions....or is all religion bad? If the US government were to abolish all religion, wouldn't that, in essence, make us a communist country? After all, the communists were against religion in any form....but back to my point, if "God" is unconstitutional, does that mean millions of teenage girls aren't allowed to say, "Oh my god!" anymore? This whole lawsuit is retarded, and really, the only reason it's being taken seriously is because there's no lawyer in the world that's going to say, "That's a dumb reason to sue." If it were something smaller, like the poster whose father turned around during the pledge, nobody would give two shits. If this guy were down the street from you on a soapbox telling everyone that "one nation under God" is a violation of his rights, would you pay any attention to him? Odds are you wouldn't....I know I wouldn't. I'd be more inclined to think he was crazy. And this country needs more love. CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?

[Guest Cancer Marney]

but back to my point, if "God" is unconstitutional, does that mean millions of teenage girls aren't allowed to say, "Oh my god!" anymore? This whole lawsuit is retarded

No, doofus, your interpretation of the lawsuit is retarded. The word wouldn't be outlawed; an explicit reference to religion would simply be excised from the Pledge.

 

I have no problem with even the President referring to God in a State of the Union address. His beliefs are his business, and I respect them. What I would object to is if he began an ABM treaty replacement (for example) with the words "With the grace of God," or something similar. (And no, I don't use or acknowledge "CE." It's AD, damn it.) That's the direct parallel to the objectionable words in the Pledge.

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

LOL -- I just saw a pic of the guy who made this ruling. I don't think he outta be agitating God at his age. I can see him at the Pearly Gates now trying to get in with the Big Guy (or Gal) telling him...

 

"Soooo, you think I'm unconstitutional?"

 

Can't wait for all the Pledge Days that are sure to be sprouting up.... Bleech.