Pledge of Allegiance declared unconstitutional

[Guest DrTom]

"I don't have a problem with the vouchers. No one's forcing anyone to attend a religious school, and if the religious schools maintain accredition I don't see why children shouldn't be permitted to attend them."

 

I don't have a problem with it, either; I just brought it up as something that I think blurs the line more than the Pledge. I think the vouchers are a good idea. Many public school systems are for shit nowadays, and if the government is truly concerned about education, this is the way to go about it. I went to Catholic school for 12 years, and I ended up an athiest, so I'm not really worried about indoctrination or "brainwashing."

[Guest Kingpk]

Hey Tom, just so you know, none of the links in your sig work.

[Guest The Czech Republic]

How many Deists do you know?

I'm a Deist. Deism rocks it 18th-century style.

[Guest DrTom]

Thanks, Kingpk. The HTML was correct, but for some reason, the links didn't work. So I used the IB URL tags and everything seems to work now. Weird that they worked before, though.

[Guest griffinmills]

I'm not an Atheist or an Agnostic. I'm a Nothingist. Those previous two titles imply a lack of belief in the Christian God, whereas I find all religion to be bunk.

 

Now, as with most unconstitutional things, only the offending part of the matter will be taken out. The pledge will survive(as it should), but the two words will go.

 

Sometimes I wonder if people were complaining about liberals back during the Civil Rights movement. I know it's totally different, but it was our own Cultural Revolution of the mid-century, and I feel that this may be the start of a new one.

You need a IMO on that first paragraph.

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=Atheist

 

Also,iIf this goes to the supreme court, then they aren't taking anything out.

[Guest griffinmills]

I'm not an Atheist or an Agnostic. I'm a Nothingist. Those previous two titles imply a lack of belief in the Christian God, whereas I find all religion to be bunk.

 

Now, as with most unconstitutional things, only the offending part of the matter will be taken out. The pledge will survive(as it should), but the two words will go.

 

Sometimes I wonder if people were complaining about liberals back during the Civil Rights movement. I know it's totally different, but it was our own Cultural Revolution of the mid-century, and I feel that this may be the start of a new one.

You need a IMO on that first paragraph.

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=Atheist

 

Also,iIf this goes to the supreme court, then they aren't taking anything out.

I just realised how after the fact this was, never mind. My apologies.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

I think what some people on this board fail to realize is that it's freedom of religion not freedom from religion.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Are you really so naive that you think one can exist without the other?

[Guest GenerationNever]

I think what some people on this board fail to realize is that it's freedom of religion not freedom from religion.

I don't think Christianity should be so mainstream right now. After all, the only reason Bush and the good ol' boys support this is because they're "Christians." The problem I have with Christians is their beliefs that everyone should be one of them and if you don't than you get punished in eternal fire forever. Sounds very elitist and self-righteous to me.

[Guest J*ingus]

That's the foundation of a lot of religions: We're Right, You're Wrong. There are relatively few that actively promote questioning your own spirituality.

[Guest MrRant]

That's the foundation of a lot of religions: We're Right, You're Wrong. There are relatively few that actively promote questioning your own spirituality.

It can all be summed up in the words of the great George Carlin:

 

"Do you believe in God?"

"No"

Boom...Dead (insert gunshot sound)

 

"Do you believe in God?"

"Yes"

"Do you believe in my God?"

"No"

Boom... Dead.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

The problem I have with Christians is their beliefs that everyone should be one of them and if you don't than you get punished in eternal fire forever. Sounds very elitist and self-righteous to me.

 

Umm... I don't know what form of Christianity you're thinking of, but I'm Catholic and that's absolutely NOT what we believe. First of all, questioning your faith IS encouraged. Secondly, the Church does not say that you must be officially part of the religion to get to heaven. As long as you live your life in a moral and ethical way (a christian way) you'll be fine. In fact, the Church teaches that a person living that way is much more assured of reaching salvation than someone who is baptized Catholic and lives like a total asshole.

 

Wherever you got the idea... the person must have been either a real zealot or very misguided.

[Guest J*ingus]

Spicy, you would not believe the number of Christians who really do believe that, at least down here in the South. Practically every person I know of a non-mainstream religion has at least one "the time conservative Christians did/said ::insert really nasty thing here:: to me", often involving their "sin" and burning in hell.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

They're probably Southern Baptist zealots or something. I can really only control myself so I try to be more accepting... that's how Christ was. I think the people that attacked your friends are sorely misguided.

[Guest DrTom]

"Umm... I don't know what form of Christianity you're thinking of, but I'm Catholic and that's absolutely NOT what we believe."

 

When I was Catholic, I ran into a lot of it. It's the whole "my Jesus can beat up your Jesus" debate that the Christian sects have been waging ever since Martin Luther came long. I also saw it on the other side, from members of other sects who did not think Catholics were "real" Christians.

 

"First of all, questioning your faith IS encouraged."

 

While it was never actively discouraged, I don't think it's the Church's best interests to go around encouraging this. Too many questions will lead to doubt, which will lead to people turning away from the faith.

 

"As long as you live your life in a moral and ethical way (a christian way) you'll be fine."

 

That's not at all what Catholic dogma says will get you into heaven. Read your Catechism.

 

"the person must have been either a real zealot or very misguided."

 

In my experience, many Catholics fall into at least one of those categories.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

When I was Catholic, I ran into a lot of it. It's the whole "my Jesus can beat up your Jesus" debate that the Christian sects have been waging ever since Martin Luther came long. I also saw it on the other side, from members of other sects who did not think Catholics were "real" Christians.

In my experience, many Catholics fall into at least one of those categories.

 

Oh, I totally agree it's there. I'm just saying these Christians are incorrect.

[Guest GenerationNever]

Oh, I totally agree it's there. I'm just saying these Christians are incorrect.

That's an opinion. To be honest, I dislike Catholisism most of all. Southern baptists are bad, but they're mostly just stupid. Now, the Catholic Church, they're smart, they have the ability to manipulate their religion on a worldwide scale. Not to mention they're denomination of Christianity has caused the most wars BY FAR.

 

This isn't meant to insult Catholics, just their leaders and their leaders' mindset. Personally, I think MOST religions are used as excuses for war and predjudice, though there are some exceptions. Does anyone else find it ironic that Romans crucified Jesus and now they "worship" him? I don't JC himself would be pleased with modern Christians. Hell, I don't even think Jesus considered himself the Messiah.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

Not to mention they're denomination of Christianity has caused the most wars BY FAR.

If you're going to make blanket statements like that, you better be prepared to back them up.

 

Does anyone else find it ironic that Romans crucified Jesus and now they "worship" him?

Jews crucified Jesus.

 

I don't JC himself would be pleased with modern Christians.

What makes you say that?

 

Hell, I don't even think Jesus considered himself the Messiah.

Yes, he did. If you're going to criticize a religion, at least know its basic beliefs and practices. We believe in the Trinity, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. In simpler terms, God is Jesus and Jesus is God.

[Guest DrTom]

"Not to mention they're denomination of Christianity has caused the most wars BY FAR.

 

If you're going to make blanket statements like that, you better be prepared to back them up."

 

Um... you've heard of the Crusades, right? How about the Holy Inquisition? Catholicism has a very long and bloody history. "Ecclesia non novit sanguinem" was probably the biggest lie they ever told.

That's not something you'll find in that Catechism, but things like that ARE a part of the Church's history, and it doesn't do anyone any good to ignore them.

[Guest NoCalMike]

I don't like the idea of vouchers, mainly because what will happen, is the top 5% of students from every public school will get torn out sent to private school, and the rest will be left behind with nothing.

[Guest GenerationNever]

Jews didn't crucify Jesus...Roman soldiers did. Jesus himself was a Jew. And yes, the Catholic Church has a long and bloody history, perhaps more than any religion EVER. The way people worship the Pope like some god-man reminds me of the Pharoahs, too.

[Guest Ram]

The Roman Soldiers did what they were employed to do, though. It was the Jews of the area that decided that crucifixion would be Jesus' fate.

 

Catholicism has indeed been involved in more wars than any other religion. However, the main fault of the religious involvement is not in the Catholic Church itself, rather the fault is in humanity. Humans cause war, not religions, not politics.

 

Everybody COULD get along fine in this world, religious acceptance would be easy, and crime would be zero, gluttony would be disappeared, and money would become completely useless.

 

But humans have this problem that fighting is the only answer, especially when the guy on the other end is being a hardhead about everything. People fight over religion the same way kids fight over the reality of Santa Clause or being related to a famous person in history. People take more than they need, and people are either unwilling or too stupid to accept what is necessity and what is just a want. Money is the only way to stop gluttony, and to make people do helpful things.

 

In the end, the only problem is humanity.

 

But if you want, go blame it on gun control or violence in media. Enjoy.

[Guest DrTom]

"Humans cause war, not religions..."

 

Religion, as a man-made institution, is absolutely responsible for the atrocities men commit in its name.

[Guest Spicy McHaggis]

If a man-made institution is something made by humans and it causes war, HUMANS are responsible for it. It's like math, if A=B and B=C then A=C.

[Guest Michael Joel Benoit]

Humans have misinteprted the bible for centuries causing all the wars.

[Guest Michael Joel Benoit]

The real honest truth is that since the bible was written by MAN, no one will ever know who God really is. It even saids it in the beginning of the bible when Adam and Eve eat the apple from the Tree of Knowledge, get it, knowledge, as in knowing who God really is. The bible, when you think about it, started as a game of mad-libs. "And God created the world in _days (7)". We Can't know God personally because our human minds are incapable of handling it.

[Guest GenerationNever]

The real honest truth is that since the bible was written by MAN, no one will ever know who God really is. It even saids it in the beginning of the bible when Adam and Eve eat the apple from the Tree of Knowledge, get it, knowledge, as in knowing who God really is. The bible, when you think about it, started as a game of mad-libs. "And God created the world in _days (7)". We Can't know God personally because our human minds are incapable of handling it.

Actually, you can't say our minds are incapable of handling it because you don't know if God exists.

[Guest RetroRob215]

Spicy, the fact of the matter is Christians have caused many wars and killed many people for following religions other than their own. How you can deny that is beyond me. Man himself wasn't the cause for the bloodshed and loss of life because it was SPECIFICALLY the Christians who started the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the mass murder of Protestants (or was it Lutherans?).

[Guest DrTom]

"If a man-made institution is something made by humans and it causes war, HUMANS are responsible for it."

 

You're using "HUMANS" in the broad sense of the word, to encompass mankind as a whole. And no, not all humans are responsible for the atricities some committed in the name of religion. I think it's safe to say that religion was the cause of things like the Crusades and the Holy Inquisition. It's a man-made institution, and it must take its share of the blame when the men who follow it to the point of blind zeal commit all manners of atrocities in its name.

[Guest Michael Joel Benoit]

The real honest truth is that since the bible was written by MAN, no one will ever know who God really is. It even saids it in the beginning of the bible when Adam and Eve eat the apple from the Tree of Knowledge,  get it, knowledge, as in knowing who God really is. The bible, when you think about it, started as a game of mad-libs. "And God created the world in _days (7)". We Can't  know God personally because our human minds are incapable of handling it.

Actually, you can't say our minds are incapable of handling it because you don't know if God exists.

I do believe.