Guest Whatmaniac Report post Posted June 27, 2002 One thing that I have noticed in the WWF in-ring product lately is a very strong emphasis on ring psychology and a growing hostility towards high-flying manuevers. For example, the top rope elbowdrop and moonsault have all but disapeared from the repertoires of Test and Kurt Angle respectively and the Crusierweights have been going to the top rope with decreasing regularity. I believe that the WWF has become too wary of injuries and is trying to seriously limit what their people do in the ring in order to minimize the risk of injury. While I appreciate the concern for the health of the workers, these policies are effectively hamstringing the talent and impeding their ability to entertain the fans. What is the point of telling a story in the ring if the story is not very interesting to the viewer. The solution is to allow the talent to use enough highspots to keep the fans entertained, but at the same time work on developing the technical skills of the workers. Major moves like the Stardust Press should be reserved for PPV exclusively so as to keep them significant in the eyes of the viewers. Vince McMahon would do well to trust in the professionalism of his wrestlers and not restrain them to punching and kicking because he is afraid of them getting hurt. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RetroRob215 Report post Posted June 27, 2002 They shouldn't go out there and do 20 highspots on a free TV show. Save them for the PPVs, that way the customers are actually getting something special when they lay $30 down for the show. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DawnBTVS Report post Posted June 27, 2002 I agree, maybe not 20 high spots per free TV Show but the cruiserweight matches in WCW ruled because they were allowed to do the big 3-4 man train wreck spot on free TV. They were also allowed to take to the top rope more. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest EricMM Report post Posted June 27, 2002 I'm sure Vince would reply that they have characters, like any other TV show. If the simpsons had to suddenly run a show without Bart and Homer, the ratings would take a hit. So when they lost HHH and Benoit, or SCSA, or anyone, it limits the show. So I'm sure vince would rather have safe wrestling. I mean everyone wants the cruisers to go over, but what if a cruiser gets hurt? To Vince (Not to me I mark for a topè like nothing else) if they're GOING to push RVD, what good is he if he does a moonsault and hurts himself? Rock didn't need moonsaults to get over. Hogan didn't need moonsaults to get over. Ok I feel dirty for having written that. But you see where he's coming from? Punch kick isn't going to injure ANYONE. I'm SURE he doesn't want anyone (except Shane who doesn't matter really) doing anything like that for free TV. The risks could be seen as too high. -Eric Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Whatmaniac Report post Posted June 27, 2002 I'm sure Vince would reply that they have characters, like any other TV show. If the simpsons had to suddenly run a show without Bart and Homer, the ratings would take a hit. So when they lost HHH and Benoit, or SCSA, or anyone, it limits the show. So I'm sure vince would rather have safe wrestling. I mean everyone wants the cruisers to go over, but what if a cruiser gets hurt? To Vince (Not to me I mark for a topè like nothing else) if they're GOING to push RVD, what good is he if he does a moonsault and hurts himself? Rock didn't need moonsaults to get over. Hogan didn't need moonsaults to get over. Ok I feel dirty for having written that. But you see where he's coming from? Punch kick isn't going to injure ANYONE. I'm SURE he doesn't want anyone (except Shane who doesn't matter really) doing anything like that for free TV. The risks could be seen as too high. -Eric Safe wrestling should not be boring wrestling. It gets a little monotonous to see every match consist of little more than punching and kicking. If they do not want to include more highspots, then they should compensate by allowing some of those moves that are only done in Japan like the Dragon Supllex and the Avalanche Brainbuster. The ban on piledrivers and brainbusters should be lifted. Wrestlers should not be prevented from doing their jobs effectively just because Austin got hurt in a freak accident. The WWF wrestlers are professionals and should be treated as such. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Coffin Surfer Report post Posted June 27, 2002 I don't believe movesets make great matches. Great inring storytelling and booking makes great matches. Wrestlers from Late 80s NWA and early 90s All Japan managed to produce great matches without incredably vast or dangerous movesets. You don't want late 90s All Japan all over again, where dumbasses just drop each other on their heads a hundred times to pop the crowd. But really there is no excuse why Benoit can't do the Wild Bomb or why Eddy can't do the Sit out Crucifix bomb. Stuff like that is holding a guy back. Sure brainbusters, piledrivers, and head drops are cool as hell. But they should compliment a match, not be the match. Also these guys are professionals, and should be allowed to do what their trained to do. Vince however should force them to save the big moves for PPV. Not only to make the PPV matches unique, but also that allows time for the spots to be better planned out and more safer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest cabbageboy Report post Posted June 27, 2002 The goofy thing to me is that wrestlers usually get hurt doing stupid shit that normally doesn't hurt anyone. Stuff like taking a backdrop wrong, or hitting the railing funny. Ironically, the sick spots that look dangerous seem to rarely hurt anyone. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest -Cutthroat- Report post Posted June 27, 2002 Well hey, when you see that your ratings are droping and they haven't for years what would you do? Let your fed die or try to get your ratings back? Hmm. Get it?? Got it?? Good... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Austin3164life Report post Posted June 27, 2002 You can have safe wrestling with all the same high spots that they used to have years ago. You just need to train all the wrestlers hard and they have to learn how to execute these type of moves to a T. RVD is a high-flyer by categorial status, so his repetoire should consist of moonsaults and he should (by default) know how to do them safely without question. I think Vince is playing it too safe because of pressure from the PTC and other things of that nature...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Human Fly Report post Posted June 27, 2002 Sometimes I think the limited movesets are preventing the lower-tiered wrestlers from getting over. I instantly think of Jerry Lynn. What was his finishing move in the WWF? Can you imagine if he could've uncorcked the cradle piledriver on Jeff Hardy who could've then sold it like he had been snapped in half. I'm not saying Lynn would've for sure gotten over if he could've used it, but moves like that for wrestlers who don't get much mic time or don't have the mic skills, could be a big help in getting them over with the crowd. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FakeRazor Report post Posted June 27, 2002 I agree with Human Fly. The banning of piledrivers and enforcing of less high spots screws over lots of lower card wrestlers and crusierweights, who use moves like that to get over. At least let them use their repitores at PPVs and the like. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FeArHaVoC Report post Posted June 27, 2002 I totally agree. That is why the Cruiserweight matches suck now. I'm not the biggest fan of MOST Cruiser matches anyway, but I understand that high, fast spots is how these guys get over and entertain the crowds. Wake Up Vince and CO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest godthedog Report post Posted June 27, 2002 i have no problem at all with less high spots, as long as they substitute WRESTLING for the high spots and not SHITTY BRAWLING. more high spots do shorten careers, & good for vince for trying to tone it down, but he's going about it the wrong way. let the guys DO WRESTLING MOVES. they don't have to drop each other on their head, but please do some kind of wrestling move. have you guys noticed that nowadays you can count kurt angle's offensive repertoire on one hand? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Austin3164life Report post Posted June 27, 2002 It's not only happening to Cruisers, but to main eventers as well. Everyone practically is forced to wrestle the bland WWE stlye of punch, kick, couple of chain moves, finisher, and that's it. Vince needs to let his stars do their thing, now that he has an abundance of Cruisers and Main Eventers. Both are key to the WWE's success...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest DrEvil Report post Posted June 27, 2002 You can count everyone's repertoire on one hand. Lesnar is supposedly and excellent amateur wrestler and what's his moveset - shoulder thrust, slams, and the F-5, HHH - knees, punch, choke, pedigree. These guys are professionals, let them choose if they want to have these moves performed on them. If the upper tier guys are threatened because the lower tier guys are stealing their heat they can get thier boring ass matches off tv and let them move up. I'm not saying let two jobbers on heat try to kill each other dropping themselves on their heads, but if a mid-carder asks to break out the occasional brainbuster, then let them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kid Kablam Report post Posted June 27, 2002 I totally agree. That is why the Cruiserweight matches suck now. I'm not the biggest fan of MOST Cruiser matches anyway, but I understand that high, fast spots is how these guys get over and entertain the crowds. Wake Up Vince and CO. I agree, as someone who never really watched WCW, I was excited when I heard that the Cruiserweights were coming to WWF/WWE. But then I saw the matches and I was like THIS is what everyone's been raving about? Course then I watched Eddie Guerrero v Rey Mysterio Jr Halloween Havoc, and realized that Vince's product is as watered down as Natty Light. That's one thing I've noticed, even guys like Benoit have had there moveset reduced. I mean, in the WWE, Benoit just seems to do a lot of suplexes (damn fine suplexes at that) I don't think I've seen that many powerbombs lately by Benoit. True, I don't order paper views (no dinero) but the WWE seems like a watered down product. Is it just free TV, or do the PPV have the same problems? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FakeRazor Report post Posted June 27, 2002 PPVs generally have the same problems, but an occasional piledriver is used on PPVs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Austin3164life Report post Posted June 27, 2002 PPVs generally have the same problems, but an occasional piledriver is used on PPVs. Vince probably thinks that someone popping an occasional piledriver or moonsault will "spike the ratings"....... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest EricMM Report post Posted June 27, 2002 I think it's very indicitive of the current state of the wwf. Less is more. When they talk about new exciting TV, they have more "exciting" back stage vignettes. When the elevate new stars, half of them are the survivors. They bring in a cruiser division but then have it just being lightweight guys wrestling heavy style. It will extend the superstars careers, and for that it's laudable. But on the other hand, it's very boring. I know for a fact that everyone, mark and smark alike marks for spots. It draws people in the same way austin spraying vince with the beer does. I think vince doesn't realize that larger than life can also consist of people who do somersault planchas to the outside, and shooting star presses. People who do things that we as average people cannot do. They are not tall and not particularly strong, but they fly like we cannot. I think WCW did it best. They were like, fuck comparisons, let the cruisers get their pops, and booker T and Jarrett will get their own pops. They are different pops, but people will tune in to watch them both. I think vince is selling a lot of people short. Variety is the spice of life, and the WWF is becoming very very bland. -Eric Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest joshicho Report post Posted June 27, 2002 I would like to see the head-dropping ban lifted, cos it would make the product more exciting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest -Cutthroat- Report post Posted June 27, 2002 The simple awnser to this post is "yes..." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest jester Report post Posted June 27, 2002 I think with a bit of planning and common sense they can bring back the more high risk maneuvers. First, nobody should try a high-risk maneuver without rigorous training. And maybe the have to take a "refresher" course if they havne't done a hard high spot in awhile. Finally, just think about the strength, weight , height, and age of the wrestlers involved. For example, you wouldn't want Hogan's aging arms giving out when you're doing a spot that could break your back. I remember the days when Gorilla Monsoon was on the mic and making a big deal of how you couldn't hit anyone with a closed fist. Sigh.... jester Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Trivia247 Report post Posted June 27, 2002 Seems that wrestlers must have been alot tougher in the 80's and early 90's. back then nearly everyone busted out with a Piledriver during a match. Somehow the WWF roster of today seems to...prissy and injury prone. Cruiserweights in WCW and other feds could bust out any move... Hell Cruiserweights use Tombstone Piledrivers like Heavyweights in the 80's use Bodyslams to set up Turnbuckle moves. it seem the higher a wrestler gets in the rankings they drop more moves from their moveset. Rock use to do off the top rope moves and fricken Hurricanrana's When was the last Wrap around DDT you seen from him? Its not like they Use these moves on the fly. They practice spots before they do them. So its not like their in the middle of a lock up and one of them goes...Hmmmm I think im gonna do a emerald Fusion... the other goes a Emerald What??? and the other goes Trust me and Lifts him for the move. Whats the point of doing wrestling if you can't do the moves? you replace those " Highspots" with brawling and Stalling and restholds... great its the 80's all over again. If they didn't want to get injured...then Don't be wrestlers! HHH busted his Quad not because of some Highspot was because he slipped while pulling Jericho off Austin and his strained leg blew. Same as Maven did a Dive under a Christian leapfrog and his leg banged up in the process... stupid crap. don't blame a Tope suicida on it! Or a Spinning Corkscrew Tombstone Piledriver, Or...Sniff.Dare I say...a Dragoncanarana! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest dreamer420 Report post Posted June 27, 2002 Vince probably thinks that someone popping an occasional piledriver or moonsault will "spike the ratings"....... ...actually it's all for the safety of his wrestlers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest godthedog Report post Posted June 27, 2002 HHH busted his Quad not because of some Highspot was because he slipped while pulling Jericho off Austin and his strained leg blew. Same as Maven did a Dive under a Christian leapfrog and his leg banged up in the process... stupid crap. what people don't seem to understand is that it's the high-impact moves that take the toll a wrestler's body, leaving him more open for injury during the "stupid crap." shawn michaels didn't end his career early because he fucked up a back body drop, he ended his career early because he constantly abused his body & let himself be thrown around like a rag doll. ever notice that the rock's never hurt? it's because he almost never does a dangerous bump or a high-impact spot. ever notice that triple h is always hurt? it's because he's a 260-pound guy who's been trying to bump around like a 210-pound guy since 2000. trips didn't tear his quad from planting his foot wrong on the mat. he tore his quad from wrestling in a street fight, 2 HIACs, an iron man match, a last man standing match, a 3 stages of hell match, a chain match & god knows what else in the span of a year and a half. same thing with benoit. during his big push, he was just wrestling at a pace too frantic for his body to keep up with. the "highspots have nothing to do with injuries because people get injured doing the simple stuff" argument is not seeing the forest for the trees. being dropped on your head X amount of times does shorten your career. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RetroRob215 Report post Posted June 27, 2002 If Vince does being back the piledriver and a wrestler has his neck broken because of it, who will you blame? I doubt anyone wouldn't say Vince McMahon and really mean it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
