The WWE eats a big slice of humble pie...

[Guest Some Guy]

I wasn't really paying attention to him. He started shitting on Cena who has had one match on WWF TV, which makes it far to early to jusge his abilities, although he did look good. Better than Albert had in his whole carreer even.

 

Venis jobbed teh Euro titel to Angle, that's the only match between tham I remember and Angle hadn't had a **** match by that point.

[Guest chirs3]

Even though I'm coming into this thread really late, I'll throw in my two cents.

 

John Cena looked pretty darn good on Smackdown!.

 

But, just like when Edge had the first match with Angle, he got in WAAAY too much. This is not "OH MAH GAWD! JOHN CENA IS HERE, AND HE'S ACCEPTING ANGLE'S CHALLENGE! HE'LL TEAR HIM LIMB FROM LIMB!"

 

This was "Tazz, that's John Cena! One of the young up'n'comers who has a bright future ahead of him in the WWE!" For a young up'n'comer who has a bright future in the WWE, who in a few years may be the new Rocks/Austins/TripleH's, he did too well. With Edge it was somewhat forgivable. But from storyline standpoint (which we know the WWE doesn't care about anyway), what sense does it make to have "John Cena, rookie WWE'er who could become something big some day!" go toe-to-toe with a holder of every major championship and, as we've all heard 3281764893 times, an Olympic Gold medalist?

 

If you're gonna debut a rookie against Angle, let Angle dominate the match.

 

I'm glad we're getting a bunch of new faces. But there's gotta be a better way to bring them in.

[Guest raptor]

I'm glad we're getting a bunch of new faces. But there's gotta be a better way to bring them in.

I don't think there was a better way to bring Cena in. As everyone has said, he came out looking like a superstar. You can't just have a rookie flounder in the low card and expect him to suddenly become credible in the fans eyes. The way they brought Cena in gives him instant credibility. All this, and it didn't hurt Kurt Angle one bit. I think it's pretty win/win.

[Guest fazzle]

*looks at Chirs3's avatar*

 

Well......shit.

[Guest TheDames7]

Brian, this is why I think Angle is THE SHIT: He can brawl, he can wrestle, he has charisma, a VERY fast learner, he can fly occasionally, bumps well, sells well, has had great matches with the main eventers, is able to give a rub, can work the mic, and has a great character.

 

Other than The Rock when motivated, no on in WWE has a better complete package than Angle, in my opinion.

 

Dames

[Guest Anglesault]

Even though I'm coming into this thread really late, I'll throw in my two cents.

 

John Cena looked pretty darn good on Smackdown!.

 

But, just like when Edge had the first match with Angle, he got in WAAAY too much. This is not "OH MAH GAWD! JOHN CENA IS HERE, AND HE'S ACCEPTING ANGLE'S CHALLENGE! HE'LL TEAR HIM LIMB FROM LIMB!"

 

This was "Tazz, that's John Cena! One of the young up'n'comers who has a bright future ahead of him in the WWE!" For a young up'n'comer who has a bright future in the WWE, who in a few years may be the new Rocks/Austins/TripleH's, he did too well. With Edge it was somewhat forgivable. But from storyline standpoint (which we know the WWE doesn't care about anyway), what sense does it make to have "John Cena, rookie WWE'er who could become something big some day!" go toe-to-toe with a holder of every major championship and, as we've all heard 3281764893 times, an Olympic Gold medalist?

 

If you're gonna debut a rookie against Angle, let Angle dominate the match.

 

I'm glad we're getting a bunch of new faces. But there's gotta be a better way to bring them in.

Thatw as my point all along.

[Guest chirs3]

How well known was Cena/Prototype to the typical WWF fan before his match with Angle? If he was a relative unknown, then bring him in and sell him as a threat, not a rookie.

[Guest Rabbi_wilson13]

Nah, I'm going to have to disagree with you Raynor.

 

I think they worked the "Angle was overconfident" view and eventually he rebounded and schooled Cena with the pinning manuever. Both men came out looking good, Angle because he won after being too cocky early on and Cena because he nearly beat a main eventer.

 

And I'm not really sure what problem you could of really had with SD! in general, Anglesault, considering Kurt got a title shot later in the night. So he didn't crush Cena? Big woop. He won the match and he confronted the Champion. That's a heckuva show for anybody.

[Guest Nezbyte]

Even though I'm coming into this thread really late, I'll throw in my two cents.

 

John Cena looked pretty darn good on Smackdown!.

 

But, just like when Edge had the first match with Angle, he got in WAAAY too much. This is not "OH MAH GAWD! JOHN CENA IS HERE, AND HE'S ACCEPTING ANGLE'S CHALLENGE! HE'LL TEAR HIM LIMB FROM LIMB!"

 

This was "Tazz, that's John Cena! One of the young up'n'comers who has a bright future ahead of him in the WWE!" For a young up'n'comer who has a bright future in the WWE, who in a few years may be the new Rocks/Austins/TripleH's, he did too well. With Edge it was somewhat forgivable. But from storyline standpoint (which we know the WWE doesn't care about anyway), what sense does it make to have "John Cena, rookie WWE'er who could become something big some day!" go toe-to-toe with a holder of every major championship and, as we've all heard 3281764893 times, an Olympic Gold medalist?

 

If you're gonna debut a rookie against Angle, let Angle dominate the match.

 

I'm glad we're getting a bunch of new faces. But there's gotta be a better way to bring them in.

Thatw as my point all along.

and it remains that there isnt a better way Cena could've been brought in. Angle can always get over in the ME, why not let Cena show what he can do? Who the fuck cares, it's not like it'll effect Kurt in the long run anyhow.

[Guest chirs3]

See above. I don't know how well known Cena/Prototype was to the typical WWF mark fan in the stands.

 

If he wasn't very well known (I'd never heard of him, but that's just me), bring him in and immediately sell him as a threat. Then I'd have no problem with him doing well against Angle. But he wasn't sold as a threat, he was sold as a rookie.

[Guest Brian]

I wouldn't consider brawling nearly anyone's strength in the WWE. No one since Foley has really done anything with a brawl in a match other than to use it as filler. Maybe Austin/HHH or Austin/Rock was close.

 

Kurt's long term selling is just not that consistent.

 

What rub does Angle give? You mean he's willing to job?

 

Once again, aside from his bumping and his ability to learn fast, he doesn't exactly strike me as being this great, well-rounded wrestler everyone praises him for being. He doesn't carry a great, strong sense of psychology (or one that transcends matches). His selling is shaky. His ability to carry a story throughout a match on his own isn't the greatest (which hurts his selling). I just don't see it. Surely there must be someone else who sees this?

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

And I'm not really sure what problem you could of really had with SD! in general, Anglesault, considering Kurt got a title shot later in the night. So he didn't crush Cena? Big woop. He won the match and he confronted the Champion. That's a heckuva show for anybody.

I see you haven't been through the WWE folder much. Anglesault finds a problem with anything Angle-related no matter HOW well-worked it was.

[Guest TheSmarkzone]

the whole point of the Hogan feud was to get him to take the next step. Being manhandled by John Cena is not the next step.

 

Anglesault, you are acting like a total mark.

 

First off, this business is a work. It's entertainment. And secondly, Angle won the damn match.

 

But that's not even the point.

 

I want to tell you a little story. My story is about a certain platinum-blonde, stylin' and profilin', limousine-ridin', jet-flyin', kiss-stealin', wheelin' and dealin' son of a gun from Charlotte, North Carolina. This man had a great gimmick and a great interview. But it was what he did in the ring that truly established him as a living legend and one of -- if not THE -- greatest world champion of all time. You see, this man had a philosophy: "Make your opponent look good, and you'll look good." And that's exactly what he did. Despite the fact that he was "the man", every single time that he stepped in that ring, he made the fans believe that the guy standing across the ring from him had a real fighting chance at winning that gold.

 

That man was none other than "Nature Boy" Ric Flair...considered by many to be the greatest of all time.

 

And that's what a truly great wrestler does...he brings his opponents up to his level -- even if it's only for 10-20 minutes -- and in the process, he makes himself look that much better.

 

Kurt Angle isn't great because he squashes people. Kurt Angle is great because he elevates people to his level. The elevation of new talent has traditionally been left to the great workers, or those who are on their way out the door.

 

Kurt is both a great worker, and on his way out the door. It's not an insult that Kurt was asked to make Cena look good, it was a COMPLIMENT. It takes skill to make a green kid look good and have the fans buy it.

 

This is how stars are made. Guess what? The buck can't stop with Kurt. We need more stars in this business than Kurt Angle, or it will die.

 

Kurt made Edge a star. He can make John Cena a star. And that is what a smart business man will do...elevate the young talent to your level so that you have good opponents to work with! If the fans think that the guy you are facing doesn't have a chance in Hell of beating you, then they are going to sit on their hands. But when you make them believe that the other guy has a CHANCE -- even if it's one in a million -- that's when they start to pop for every near fall, and that's when the magic happens.

 

Once again, Kurt Angle isn't great because he looks dominant in all of his matches. That doesn't take talent. Kurt Angle is great because like Ric Flair, he believes in the philosophy of "Make your opponent look good and make YOURSELF look good." Now that takes talent to pull off. And it's certainly nothing that Kurt Angle fans should be angry about.

 

Rant over.

[Guest Rabbi_wilson13]

Oh I think Angle is a great wrestler. You put him up against a wide range of opponents and get consistent watchable matches. He plays to the crowd, he can play the intense heel or the cowardly heel, he doesn't complain about jobbing and he's got a wide range of moves.

 

He's one of the most enjoyable wrestlers in the WWF right now. Have you ever been extremely bored with a Kurt Angle segment? He and Rock provide some of the only Must See TV left in the fed.

 

EDIIIIIT - SmarkZone, I agree with you entirely. Bravo.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

TheSmarkzone, great post, but be prepared for it to be no-sold, dude.

[Guest TheSmarkzone]

Of course he will no-sell it. He doesn't want Angle to sell for any young guys, why should he sell for a new poster?

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

LOL!

 

Nice one.

[Guest Anglesault]

the whole point of the Hogan feud was to get him to take the next step. Being manhandled by John Cena is not the next step.

 

Anglesault, you are acting like a total mark.

 

First off, this business is a work. It's entertainment. And secondly, Angle won the damn match.

 

But that's not even the point.

 

I want to tell you a little story. My story is about a certain platinum-blonde, stylin' and profilin', limousine-ridin', jet-flyin', kiss-stealin', wheelin' and dealin' son of a gun from Charlotte, North Carolina. This man had a great gimmick and a great interview. But it was what he did in the ring that truly established him as a living legend and one of -- if not THE -- greatest world champion of all time. You see, this man had a philosophy: "Make your opponent look good, and you'll look good." And that's exactly what he did. Despite the fact that he was "the man", every single time that he stepped in that ring, he made the fans believe that the guy standing across the ring from him had a real fighting chance at winning that gold.

 

That man was none other than "Nature Boy" Ric Flair...considered by many to be the greatest of all time.

 

And that's what a truly great wrestler does...he brings his opponents up to his level -- even if it's only for 10-20 minutes -- and in the process, he makes himself look that much better.

 

Kurt Angle isn't great because he squashes people. Kurt Angle is great because he elevates people to his level. The elevation of new talent has traditionally been left to the great workers, or those who are on their way out the door.

 

Kurt is both a great worker, and on his way out the door. It's not an insult that Kurt was asked to make Cena look good, it was a COMPLIMENT. It takes skill to make a green kid look good and have the fans buy it.

 

This is how stars are made. Guess what? The buck can't stop with Kurt. We need more stars in this business than Kurt Angle, or it will die.

 

Kurt made Edge a star. He can make John Cena a star. And that is what a smart business man will do...elevate the young talent to your level so that you have good opponents to work with! If the fans think that the guy you are facing doesn't have a chance in Hell of beating you, then they are going to sit on their hands. But when you make them believe that the other guy has a CHANCE -- even if it's one in a million -- that's when they start to pop for every near fall, and that's when the magic happens.

 

Once again, Kurt Angle isn't great because he looks dominant in all of his matches. That doesn't take talent. Kurt Angle is great because like Ric Flair, he believes in the philosophy of "Make your opponent look good and make YOURSELF look good." Now that takes talent to pull off. And it's certainly nothing that Kurt Angle fans should be angry about.

 

Rant over.

You also have to realize two things. Angle is NOT Ric Flair. No will ever be as good as Ric Flair.

 

And, in between putting people over, Flair was made to look, you know, good. He won the damn belt sixteen times. All year long, Angle has either been used to make people look good, or made to look like a totally incompetent jackass. At SOME point, they have to make the guy look credible. If they keep this up long enough, Angle will be done, and he won't even have any rub to give. No one wins.

 

I really don't mind him helping to put new wrestlers over, but he has been doing it ALL YEAR, almost nonstop, and he has RARELY, RARELY, looked like a credible contender.

 

Remember, both Kane AND Big Show were used to help elevate younger talent after their title reigns. And they never recovered.

 

I'm kind of easing off my "never elevate anyone" stance, but they have to give Kurt SOMETHING every once in a while.

[Guest Redhawk]

"And more importantly, he needs to stop having such damn good matches when HHH is only having *** matches in the main event. HHH is the best in the business from where I sit."

 

 

Sometime I really wonder if the company purposefully require their talent to dumb down their matches so not as to upstage the me'ers.

Why do you think everyone's been doing sleepers lately? And why have the main events turned slow and crappy all of a sudden? Hulk Hogan, Undertaker, and a less-then-100% Triple H have a LOT to do with that.

[Guest GenerationNever]

Why the fuck do you care so much? It's pro wrestling. WINS DONT MATTER! WWE felt he was a good enough talent to showcase an up-and-comer. Calm the fuck down and enjoy the program.

Calm down, Nezbyte. Stop insulting Sault in the WWE forums. All insult directed at posters should go in the NHB folder. Not that I agree with you, Nez, but you could be banned by a mod for flaming outside the NHB folder.

[Guest TheSmarkzone]

I'm kind of easing off my "never elevate anyone" stance, but they have to give Kurt SOMETHING every once in a while.

 

Hey, at least he made Hulk Hogan tap, right? Who else can say that they made Hulk Hogan tap while he was a babyface? Hell, who else can say that they made Hulk Hogan tap at all? Sting and Lex Luger are the only other wrestlers to accomplish that, if I remember correctly.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

I'm kind of easing off my "never elevate anyone" stance, but they have to give Kurt SOMETHING every once in a while.

Okay. I've asked once before, and I'll try again:

So what do you suggest to give Kurt some more shine?

 

Time off before the fans lose their heat with him? The return of the "badass" Kurt who snapped his mind and snapped people's ankles? A title reign with several clean defenses?

 

Whatever you suggest, don't say "a clean pin on HHH," because in your much-ballyhooed opinion, HHH does not draw. And thus by logic a pin on him would mean nothing.

[Guest saturnmark4life]

It should be pointed out that kurt having a good match with Cena, selling and still going over has not affected him badly at all, as he already has another title shot on smackdown.

[Guest Anglesault]

I'm kind of easing off my "never elevate anyone" stance, but they have to give Kurt SOMETHING every once in a while.

Okay. I've asked once before, and I'll try again:

So what do you suggest to give Kurt some more shine?

 

Time off before the fans lose their heat with him? The return of the "badass" Kurt who snapped his mind and snapped people's ankles? A title reign with several clean defenses?

 

Yes? What the fuck is so hard about that? And leading up to the title match, Angle should just mow down anything in his path. But we couldn't do that now, could we? it's much easier to have HHH pull his pants down and have hm cheat to beat Bob holly.

[Guest Goodear]

From Anglesault

 

You also have to realize two things. Angle is NOT Ric Flair. No will ever be as good as Ric Flair.

 

I have Flair issues, but I'll let this one pass even though Ric has been working the same match for something like 10 years in a row now.

 

And, in between putting people over, Flair was made to look, you know, good. He won the damn belt sixteen times.

 

Flair also looked really bad getting himself intentially disqualified against the Junkyard Dog. He also looked bad jobbing those titles to Ronnie Garvin, Dusty Rhodes, and Kerry Von Erich. Winning the title that many times also means that you have to job that same title over and over. It hardly ever appeared that Flair was actually beating up his opponents so much as he would out-smart and out-cheat them. Angle does those things while also having the elements needed to pull out regular wins when he's booked to do so.

 

I really don't mind him helping to put new wrestlers over, but he has been doing it ALL YEAR, almost nonstop, and he has RARELY, RARELY, looked like a credible contender.

 

He made Hogan tap, he made Kane tap, and he beat Edge more than he lost.

 

Remember, both Kane AND Big Show were used to help elevate younger talent after their title reigns. And they never recovered.

 

Both held the title for little longer than a cup of coffee. Kane's reign lasted a day. Both (although I'm a Kane fan) are not in Angle's league in just about any catagory you would care to mention.

[Guest Anglesault]

He made Hogan tap, he made Kane tap, and he beat Edge more than he lost.

 

Hogan is definately a start. I think he still should have been on a tear this week, though. He made Kane tap..and no one cared. And I think the record stands Edge: 8, Angle: 3, or something along those lines. This latest feud, Edge won 2-1.

 

I can see you Flair comparisons, but I'm just saying that the things like that worked for Flair because he was generally one of the most reknown and respected wrestlers. Angle isn't at that level yet.

[Guest TheyCallMeMark]

was[/i] better. I'm not so sure he is now. Benoit is a question mark, unless you have psycic powers it's pretty tough to know how good he is these days.

 

Add Jericho and Storm, then. Test, for entertainment value alone. Also, Rey (when debuted).

 

Jericho is not better. Jericho is around the same level... And Storm? Give me a break. Storm could have never carried Edge like Angle did. I'm not even going to respond to your other choice. And how can you possibly know Rey is better? It must be those wacky psycic powers again, huh? Hell, Rey has NEVER been as good as Angle is now.

 

Can Angle wrestle a **** match with Albert, or Bossman, or Test, or even Val Venis?

 

No one could, no one could, no one could, and yes very easily. Val Venis could be carried like a feather to a way better match than Cena could have. And you're not insinuating that match with Cena was ****'s are you? If so, I think we're on completely different levels as far as wrestling is concerned.

 

We were talking about wrestling, right? Storm may have been in a bull segment but, who knows, maybe they're letting this thing build properly. He's still a better and more worldly wrestler

 

Storm is probably my favourite wrestler but come on... A more worldly wreslter? Angle was in the olympics for Fuck's sake.

 

I still have yet to see Angle actually carry the flow and psychology of a match. I see him bump like hell, but everything still hasn't come together. Considering DVDVR guys still think he's top fifty worker after they horribly overrated him for the last period (but didn't change his position despite the weaker field which is quite tongue in cheek) is very good on his part, but I still think he's not as well rounded of a wrestler as everyone praises him for being at this point. Jericho when he's on is more deserving of the praise.

 

Jericho hasn't been on since HHH got involved with his World Title reign, and I don't even think he's been on since before that. Generally, I think Jericho is a little better but I wouldn't really consider it that big of a difference. I think Angle's bumping and credible offense make up for Jericho's storytelling. That's just me though, and I can see where you are coming from.

 

Anyway that's enough of that sillyness.

 

And Angle not in the top forty workers? I would put him near the top 20 myself... But again that's just me.

[Guest alfdogg]

Why the fuck do you care so much? It's pro wrestling. WINS DONT MATTER! WWE felt he was a good enough talent to showcase an up-and-comer. Calm the fuck down and enjoy the program.

Calm down, Nezbyte. Stop insulting Sault in the WWE forums. All insult directed at posters should go in the NHB folder. Not that I agree with you, Nez, but you could be banned by a mod for flaming outside the NHB folder.

No he won't. You could kill one of the mod's mothers and not get banned from this board.

 

AS, you should have known not to express a different opinion on this board. That's a crime punishable by death, apparently.

[Guest TheDames7]

Can Angle wrestle a **** match with Albert, or Bossman, or Test, or even Val Venis?

 

No one could, no one could, no one could, and yes very easily. Val Venis could be carried like a feather to a way better match than Cena could have. And you're not insinuating that match with Cena was ****'s are you? If so, I think we're on completely different levels as far as wrestling is concerned.

I was referring to AS's comment on how Angle can wrestle ANYONE to a ****1/2 match as long as they were healthy and under 40.

 

Dames

[Guest Brian]

Guerrero's been top five in the world since he cleaned up. I really haven't seen Guerrero at the top of his game like this since 1997. He carried Super Crazy to as good as a match as the WWE's had all year (with the exception of Guerrero's ladder match with RVD). I've only heard rumors of his other matches. I can look at Benoit and tell that unless suddenly he decides to no-sell, he looks fine. In a few months he'll be at normal. Rey's matches in Mexico were supposedly on a much higher end than Angle's because, what people have said is that Rey was pacing himself and doing less crazy stuff for pops and actually working on building a match. I can't wait to see him vs. Tajiri as Tajiri's done such a good job as a heel reigning guys in and I actually now think that they'll work really, realy well because Rey's offense will bring out the best of Tajiri. Rather than the WWE Tajiri.

 

You sort of contradict yourself by saying Jericho was not better and then he was a little. I think he's much more rounded. Jericho's strength is more geared towards storytelling, selling, and building a match. Angle has a nice offense and bumps a lot. When Jericho's on he seems to be the more commanding worker in the ring, which isn't a bad thing, because it's what makes RVD and Angle mesh with so many workers. They're able to vary their styles basically by bumping, even though both can screw up pacing and blow their moves. Jericho just has that ring sense, that gives him the edge on Angle (no pun intended).

 

Storm's match with Edge was not as strong as Angle's, but then again Angle failed to build any of his other matches like that match. Storm wasn't given the chance to work with Edge nearly as much as Angle considering they had been doing matches much earlier and were already familiar with each other.