Alright, A Question of Pacing

[Guest Ignatz Belzner]

I recently downloaded "Great Muta v. Jyushin Thunder Lyger" (I think that was Liger's spelling-of-the-day) from some time in June of 1996...it was a clip around 24 min. with about 20 min. of actual "match."

 

My question is...are most puro matches this....damned....slow....? Seriously, they circled for a minute, posed for a minute or two, then came together (punch punch kick), and one of them bailed out of the ring. Repeat that for about 6 minutes, until Muta (out of absolutely NOWHERE) piledrives Liger through a table. They get back in the ring (piledriver), they leave the ring (piledriver on the floor), they get back in the ring (punch punch kick bail), until FINALLY Muta takes Liger down, rushes up the 'buckles, moonsault, 1-2-3.

 

Most boring wrestling match I've ever seen. So my question is thus:

Are all Japanese matches paced like this (i.e. Set phasers for BORING!) or just the heavies/juniors/old guys, or just this match in particular?

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

late 90s Great Muta does not an anyway shape or form represent puro. I'll go into more detail, but I'am sure somebody who knows alot more than me will.

[Guest wolverine]

Are all Japanese matches paced like this (i.e. Set phasers for BORING!) or just the heavies/juniors/old guys, or just this match in particular?

 

Absolutely not. You just downloaded a bad match.

 

If you're interested in heavyweights, look for matches involving Misawa, Kawada and Kobashi. For juniors, look for Liger, Ohtani, Ultimo Dragon, Sasuke, etc. You won't be disappointed.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Oh, and Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask 4/23/81 is one of the fastest non luchadore matches I've ever seen worked. They are constantly moving, and even managed to make head scissors sequence exciting.

[Guest BigTim2002]

It goes like this.

 

1st part: Submission and mat wrestling to try and reduce the offense. Even though this might not make sense since they will be able to do their finishers, it lessens the effect, thereby dictating the flow of the match.

 

2nd part: This is the transitional part, where they might get away from the submission part, but might pull out a big move or two.

 

3rd part: Shit gets going. The big moves start happening and near falls are happening all the time.

 

That is how the puro style is supposed to work. Watch Kawada, Misawa, Kobashi, Lyger, Mutoh, Ohtani. Those six alone are great examples of how the puro style should be worked.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

It goes like this.

 

1st part: Submission and mat wrestling to try and reduce the offense. Even though this might not make sense since they will be able to do their finishers, it lessens the effect, thereby dictating the flow of the match.

 

2nd part: This is the transitional part, where they might get away from the submission part, but might pull out a big move or two.

 

3rd part: Shit gets going. The big moves start happening and near falls are happening all the time.

 

That is how the puro style is supposed to work. Watch Kawada, Misawa, Kobashi, Lyger, Mutoh, Ohtani. Those six alone are great examples of how the puro style should be worked.

Thats pretty much the typical Junior match formula, which doesn't really reflect the Heavyweight style.

[Guest BigTim2002]

That's what I've seen Mutoh do the entire tapeset from Best of Japan 2001, so that's what I'm saying.

[Guest Jubuki]

Using 2001 Mutoh for an example of any kind other than "How to Get Pimped to the Moon Without Really Trying" was your first mistake...

[Guest wolverine]

Watch Kawada, Misawa, Kobashi, Lyger, Mutoh, Ohtani.

 

"One of these is not like the others"

 

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Personally I blame this recent string of Mutoh marks on Scott Keith. He actually decides to review a Puro tape on a frequently visited website, but he chooses Best of 2001, and pimps the hell out of those damn Old Man Mutoh matches.

 

Not that Mutoh is terriably bad, but he isn't great. I like the Great Muta NWA stuff, mostly because I was a kid and his character was cool as hell. But looking back, even than in his prime, he wasn't that good at all. Fear the CHINLOCK!

[Guest BigTim2002]

You gotta admit though. The Triple Crown match between him and Tenryu, two 40-somethings, with Tenryu's prime being way behind him, as was Mutoh's they put on a better match than the 40 year olds HERE could do...

[Guest Black Tiger]

Check out the 10/96 Muta vs Lyger streetfight, its much faster and is a decent match considering that it was a streetfight and Muta was his lazy self, Lyger pulled one hell of a match out of him.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Which is the one where Liger gets unmasked and becomes Muta? How many street fights did they put those two in?

 

Anyway, didn't Keith say he wasn't too impressed with Mutoh? I think it's basically Zach Arnold and Puroresu Power because pretty much everyone around there is a mark for Mutoh. And Mutoh is in his 30's, he just moves like he's fifty cause his knee's are brittle. Tenryu, on the other hand, is in his fifties and managed to out-work Mutoh in that match, and that was Mutoh's peak for pretty much the last eight years, too. Not that it was a bad match, it's just that Mutoh didn't make that great a performance there compaired to Tenryu.

[Guest XdojimeX]

"I think it's basically Zach Arnold and Puroresu Power because pretty much everyone around there is a mark for Mutoh."

 

Meltzer is the root of all evi...err, all the retro Mutoh fanboyism. Yep.

 

"Tenryu, on the other hand, is in his fifties and managed to out-work Mutoh in that match."

 

People are forgetting their '98 and '99 matches. Both we're at about the same level of the '01 match. Because it happend in an All Japan ring seems to have highlighted the effort for some reason. They do have this weird chemistry together though.

 

"and that was Mutoh's peak for pretty much the last eight years, too."

 

Huh? Mutoh through '94-'96 was a good deal better worker then he was last year. Heck, Mutoh in '98 was better then he was last year. The dude pulls a couple good matches out of his ass, pimps Motoko like his name was Huggy Keiji and the next thing you know he had heads thinking he was like MJ on the comeback tour.

 

Puroresu Love baby, now where's my money bitch...

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Meltzer is the root of all evi...err, all the retro Mutoh fanboyism. Yep.

 

Yeah, must be the music. Everyone is always decieved by the kick-ass Mutoh music.

 

People are forgetting their '98 and '99 matches. Both we're at about the same level of the '01 match. Because it happend in an All Japan ring seems to have highlighted the effort for some reason. They do have this weird chemistry together though.

 

Well, I think All Japan hasn't had anything that stands out as good for a long while, and Mutoh/Tenryu stood out, I guess. The fact that Mutoh won the Triple Crown also got it a good deal of publicity, since New Japan giving their world title to an outsider is commonplace, while it was a big deal for All Japan.

 

Huh? Mutoh through '94-'96 was a good deal better worker then he was last year. Heck, Mutoh in '98 was better then he was last year. The dude pulls a couple good matches out of his ass, pimps Motoko like his name was Huggy Keiji and the next thing you know he had heads thinking he was like MJ on the comeback tour.

 

I was over-exagerating. Yes, Mutoh in '96 smokes the crap he churns out today, but I guess I just saw the wrong matches from '98, then. Indeed, Mutoh managed to get pimped by everyone as a good worker and as someone who wanted to save wrestling by doing nothing at all. It's quite ridiculous.

[Guest Jubuki]

and that was Mutoh's peak for pretty much the last eight years, too.

 

Uhh, don't get carried away, there. Mutoh has had some great matches, mixed in with Muta garbage and shittiness vs. Takada/Kawada and the like...which is what makes it so frustrating that he sucks like he does now.

[Guest Ignatz Belzner]

Hey, thanks for the responses and suggestions...I got sidetracked by the excveptional rage that is the WWE board for a while there...now if only somebody would put puroresu matches on KaZaA. It seems the only wrestling fans on kazaa are ECW mutants (though the video of RVD bouncing off of his head after a piledrivier is rather impressive.)

 

Well, there is one clip of Kobashi German suplexing some guy (identififed as Aki(?) ) straight on his head and then decapitating him with a clothesline. Good stuff

[Guest wolverine]

Well, there is one clip of Kobashi German suplexing some guy (identififed as Aki(?) ) straight on his head and then decapitating him with a clothesline. Good stuff

 

It's probably Akiyama. Stuff from the mid-90's with Misawa, Kobashi, Kawada, Taue, Akiyama, et al is mostly great stuff of course. Stay away from the Muta crap in the future.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

Mutoh. Ugh.

 

I'll say here that most of the puro I've seen was limited to the Super J-Cups(94/95), or what I download.

 

From what I've seen..(8/5/2001) v Lyger..Mutoh's offense appears to consist of no-selling, dragon screws, and the Shining Wizard knee to the head.

 

*edit* (8/10/2001) v Chono..it was pretty much the same. Just dropkicks (about eight) and a figure four added to the above. Sad.

 

-Shiro