WWE Problems

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

This has been bothering me lately, and I don't know why.

 

We all know the WWE has slid lately, not just in ratings, but storyline wise as well. Steve Austin is gone. Hulk Hogan and the nWo are back. I'm not going to be a sheep and say it's 'backstage politics' causing the "downfall" of the WWE, because I don't know that.

 

Chris Jericho is the internet's darling. Always doing right, and suffering under the evil heel of HHH, who's stuffed him below a glass cieling. Give me a break. The nWo, once WCW's biggest draw, are nothing more than a bunch of midcarders without any real purpose. Team Canada has the possibility to be a huge heel stable..but they're getting beaten up by Rikishi, Hogan, and Edge. Ric Flair was playing the 'evil owner' to Steve Austin's 'rebel against authority', and that failed. Edge was feuding with the heel Kurt Angle, but all that got was a bunch of 'baldy' chants. Eddie Guerrero was the heel to Rob Van Dam's face. Which one out of there worked?

 

The WWE seems to be geniunely reluctant to push heels not named "Hunter" or "Austin". Jericho, the nWo, Flair, and Angle all suffered from the same thing. They were never allowed to win. In each case, they were made to look like fools. HHH, Rocky and Austin, Austin again, and Edge always had the 'upper hand'. Never got beaten down, and always got their heat back. What's wrong with this here?

You see, it's not just 'poor little Chris Jericho' that was "held down". Everything in the universe is not Triple H's fault. Now that we've got that fact established..

 

Why were the ratings for Austin/McMahon, WCW vs the nWo, and even Rock/HHH in 2000 so high? There was a CLEAR underdog, and a clear heel in each case. There was the 'chase'..the lure of never knowing when the face would get the upper hand, and win the belt, or defeat the bad guys, either way. Hogan did it for years..and so did Austin. The 'invincible face' concept that I despise. Faces should get the upper hand enough to please the fans, but honestly, not every time. The nWo should have been allowed to plow over the WWE's main eventers, making them look like a threat. Team Canada should be able to beat the living hell out of Rikishi, instead of the other way around. Nobody will ever be seen as a threat if they lose constantly.

 

People see the easy target..(HHH), and want to blame them instead of looking for what really happened. Has any heel since Austin in 2001 been allowed massive ammounts of airtime, and wins? Nope. Maybe it's something to consider. "Character development". Have Team Canada absolutely kick the crap out of Rikishi, then ambush Hogan/Edge in the back, giving them real heat. Have them get a convincing win at the PPV. Heels should cheat, but not in minor matches. Jericho should be pinning lower/midcarders cleanly..so should Angle, Benoit, and Guerrero. Having Eddy look like Bubba's bitch does nothing but take heat off the most over heel on the Raw roster.

 

Perhaps there are more problems than the 'backstage politics' everybody always harps on..

[Guest TheBlurricane]

just like Rock making Angle tap out to a horrible looking ankle lock on Smackdown pretty much made Angle's tap outs against Hogan and Taker look like nothing.

 

I'm not saying that HHH doesn't have anything to do with the problems cause the evidence has just become to blatant over the years to not have some truth behind it.

 

Right now we have the two extremes. Those that want to believe that backstage politics are a somewhat made up thing...and those that believe backstage politics is everything.

 

I sit somewhere in the middle.

[Guest TheBlurricane]

and just so you're wondering my signature pic and quote is a light hearted joke. I'm not trying to be serious with it

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

I know.

 

..but a lot of people around here DO seem deadly serious when they spew the "HHH is the bane of the universe" stuff. I'm more inclined to blame things on shoddy writing and half ass booking than on somebody "Holding _____ down"

 

..and no, Stephanie does not write the entire show. The writng has always been lame (over-exposing certian things..Dudleys/Tables, Hardys/Ladders, Austin "I stand alone", etc..) even before Steph was on the writing team. Jericho's career was botched WAY before he got involved with Trips.

[Guest cynicalprofit]

BUt Steph will probably be writing in the long run and as long as shes with hhh its a conflict of interest that needs to be stopped. Rock even said something about the conflict of interest in his book and when theres a conflict of interest, no good can come of it. They need to have a staff completely independent of the wrestlers. Man let a group of smarts write. Seriosuly, we care about the product, we know what works and what doesnt(in the sense of how a feud should work), and we know enough to listen to what the crowd wants and what they dont like.

 

Vince has hisway or the highway.

 

But I do agree, we dont have a clear underdog, almost did with Taz vs Austin, but that never got anywhere. If they want and underdog, man, turn spike into the next shawn, spike is the PERFECT underdog. Small, loveable, and knows how to talk.

[Guest WukenBloodstar]

Yeah, it's called the Jericho/Chyna Feud,shit..that would kill my career too.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

It dosen't have to be a little guy like Spike or Tazz. An underdog can be somebody who's outwitted..or plotted against and ambushed..or outmanned..can be anybody with the right writing.

[Guest TheBlurricane]

not just the Jericho/Chyna feud...the fact that Jericho debuted with awesome promo work against the Rock. They had great chemistry, but it went no where. Soon he was in a storyline where he had brainwashed Howard Finkel and it went down hill from there.

 

He really didn't get much of a push until he got out of the Chyna feud and won the IC title in a way that could resemble a push, but he lost it to Angle and then got the Euro title. He pretty much did nothing until his small feud with HHH where for one moment he touched the WWF title and had an awesome Last man standing match with HHH. but that was quickly cut off and he was put in a pointless feud with Kane. He had one small IC title run in early 2001, but got stuck into the rediculous Regal feud.

 

Then was the Benoit/Jericho push of mid 01, then that was cut off. Then finally he becomes Undisputed champ until HHH comes back and once again he's back in the midcard.

 

Everytime he looks to be pushed it gets cut off.....hmmm that's odd

[Guest papacita]

Yeah, it's called the Jericho/Chyna Feud,shit..that would kill my career too.

Bullshit. That was probably the most over feud in the WWF at the time, whether he lost the match at Survivor Series or not. That feud brought back a lot of the heat that the title lost due to Russo's "titles don't mean anything" attitude, so that when Jericho, Angle and Benoit actually got their reigns in 2000, people actually cared about the title again.

 

Jericho's career got fucked up when they turned him face. People liked HEEL Chris Jericho, and when they turned him, they pretty much took away everything about him that made him likable. It might have worked had they gone all the way with the World Title push, but they didn't, and by SummerSlam and Unforgiven, Chris had become stale, and there you go...

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

I take the opposite view on that. Chris Jericho deserved more than being stuck with Chyna like an albatross around his neck.

[Guest Smeghead]

Jericho's career got fucked up when they turned him face. People liked HEEL Chris Jericho, and when they turned him, they pretty much took away everything about him that made him likable. It might have worked had they gone all the way with the World Title push, but they didn't, and by SummerSlam and Unforgiven, Chris had become stale, and there you go...

They didn't actually turn him face. It happened by accident. At Armageddon 1999, he got a huge pop when he won the title. He was getting cheered in that entire match, and Chyna was getting the boos, even though it should've been the other way around. Jericho was playing a heel throughout his entire feud with Chyna, and Chyna was the face. But during Chyna's IC Title reign, the fans started to realize just how much she sucked. And because she sucked so bad, anyone that was against her automatically got the pops, no matter what they did. The feud with Chyna inadvertently turned Jericho into one of the most popular faces on the roster. The writers really had no choice but to go along with it.

[Guest papacita]

But during Chyna's IC Title reign, the fans started to realize just how much she sucked. And because she sucked so bad, anyone that was against her automatically got the pops, no matter what they did.

 

I know I'm a little biased, but I think you're a little off there. From what I remember, during the I-C Title, Chyna only wrestled Jericho, Hardcore Holly, and Stevie Richards, and I definitely don't remember Holly or Richards getting any wild face pops. Yes, Jericho was popular (unlike Jarrett, who was pretty much disliked universally, a lot of marks liked Jericho going into the feud, so looking at it from that standpoint, it might not have been good to put a more charasmatic Jericho in there with Chyna) and Chyna got a lot of boos when she faced him, but to say that the fans just turned on her no matter who she fought isn't true.

 

As for Jericho, my main problem with him, like with just about everybody else I like, is that when they turn them face, they take away EVERYTHING that made him so popular in the 1st place. He used the heat that he gained from the Chyna feud to propel him into a strong face run in early 2000, and the WWF made the mistake of keeping him a face after SummerSlam, when he was already beginning to become stale. It would've made perfect sense to turn him heel, especially with HHH turning face, and it's not like they had a major blowoff to the HHH/Angle/Stephanie saga anyway, so they should've done it (JMO, though). Anyway, I'm not complaining about the turn itself, just the way that his face run was executed.

 

As for the Chyna feud, short of feuding with the Rock, it was the best thing for him to do at the time. I mean, the Road Dogg feud basically died when he got injured, Shamrock got injured and left, and prior to No Mercy, Jericho was stuck in the midcard doing NOTHING. The Rock was in a program with the World Title, as was Austin (who I doubt would've stepped down to work with Jericho anyway), and Chyna unbelievable face heat after the feud with Jarrett, to the point where she became a fairly major attraction for the WWF shows. With all this in mind, Chyna was the best person on the late 1999 roster for him to work with in order for him to maintain some kind of heat. And it did good for the I-C Division, so overrall, I have no problems with it.

[Guest evenflowDDT]

In regards to weak heels and strong faces, don't forget to beat the dead horse of the WCW inVasion last year even more to death... I watched a few matches again today, and the Alliance didn't go over clean once.

 

I think the reason for this is simply that the casual fans don't care anymore. They just want to see RVD give his five-star, Hogan drop his leg, and Rocky act like a dick to everyone. It's true that the WWE is shooting themselves in the foot, because eventually the casual fans will wake up, but until then, there's nothing we can do about it. In fact, I'd say we should accept the facts of life for the Chris Jericho's of the world and applaud the way the WWE isn't making their new blood look weak, because that's all that's going to matter in a couple years anyway.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

Chyna [had] unbelievable face heat after the feud with Jarrett, to the point where she became a fairly major attraction for the WWF shows.

I'm trying to remember. Was this the feud where Jarrett was playing a womanhater, with Jarrett & Chyna hitting each other over the head with frying pans and putting aprons on each other?

 

I vaguely remember that being pretty amusing, and actually getting some decent pops.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

Do they really not care? Not all casual fans are like that. I know quite a few personally that tuned out because there's not enough wrestling to the program. Which is true.

 

It's not any fun to watch when the faces beat everybody. *shrugs* IMO..it's better to cheer somebody because you want to see them beat their opponent..than just to cheer them for moves and catchprases.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

It's not any fun to watch when the faces beat everybody. *shrugs*

Then you have WCW, which is the opposite. Feuds are best when both sides are close in wins.

[Guest papacita]

Chyna [had] unbelievable face heat after the feud with Jarrett, to the point where she became a fairly major attraction for the WWF shows.

I'm trying to remember. Was this the feud where Jarrett was playing a womanhater, with Jarrett & Chyna hitting each other over the head with frying pans and putting aprons on each other?

 

I vaguely remember that being pretty amusing, and actually getting some decent pops.

Yes

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

WCW was like WWE in the respect they didn't know when to call anything off. IMO, the heel should dominate, and the face wins the big blowoff, and everybody goes home happy. What we have now is the legacy of one bald-headed bastard. Faces 'get payback' on average 2 to 1 over the heels. Tell me one heel that's been made to look credible since January 2002.

 

Angle was shaved of all of an inch of hair. What sense THAT made. Edge basically mocked him and ridiculed him the entire feud. The nWo was outwitted and out-manned by Austin singlehandedly. Flair (and Show) were jobbed off to Austin. Jericho was made to look like a loser, cheating to beat Rikishi and Mark Henry, etc..and not getting the big wins he needed. Eddy was pinned after a glorified BUTT drop, and Benoit nearly was. *shrugs* Right now, it's -too- lopsided.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

WCW was like WWE in the respect they didn't know when to call anything off. IMO, the heel should dominate, and the face wins the big blowoff, and everybody goes home happy.

 

But doesn't that make the face's win look like a fluke? I'd rather a tough competitive feud where both sides are going neck for neck, and then the face out-wrestles the heel and is crowned the better man.

 

Tell me one heel that's been made to look credible since January 2002.

 

Jericho looked credible up until the No Way Out PPV. He pinned Rock clean at Rumble and even beat up Austin with his own beer cooler.

 

Angle was shaved of all of an inch of hair. What sense THAT made.

 

All we needed was a wig on a pole match the next night to firmly establish a Russo style booking era.

 

The nWo was outwitted and out-manned by Austin singlehandedly.

 

Hey now. Don't blame Creative just because Austin didn't want to try and do anything long or even medium-turn with those guys.

[Guest bcu1979]

I take the opposite view on that. Chris Jericho deserved more than being stuck with Chyna like an albatross around his neck.

Who do you think pushed for that feud? The Observer reported that many people were against the Jericho/Chyna feud at the time because they didn't think it would be good for Jericho's career. But Triple H was WWF champion at the time, Chyna was his girlfriend and he used his power to make the feud happen.

 

I'm not going to say the feud was set-up to bury Jericho because it might not have been. But Jericho came off the feud with Chyna as the #2 babyface in the company behind only Rock, while Chyna was left with so little heat that they made her Jericho's manager to beg people to cheer for her again. I'm pretty sure that was not the plan either.

 

You're right. Triple H is not to blame for every problem in the WWE. There's more than enough blame to pass around for Vince, Stephanie, Austin, Undertaker, Jim Ross, NWO, the entire writing staff and many more. And there is a problem with the heels never being allowed to get any heat on the invincible babyfaces. But your argument seems to be that is strictly a problem with the creative staff, which I don't agree with. Many of the key members of creative were around in late 1999 when they took Triple H from a heatless heel in the upper-midcard to a bonafide main event superstar heel. They know how to make new superstars. But for some reason they haven't made any new stars since then. I don't believe it's just a question of the writing team not being able to find a clue.

 

You don't think backstage politics had anything to do with Austin beating up the NWO immediately after they arrived? Or that Triple H making Jericho look like a complete fool in the weeks before Mania was nothing more than poor writing? What about Booker turning face with a lot of momentum and then getting beat every week by the NWO? Or that the head writer is not at all influenced by her boyfriend?

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

I'm all for HHH flaming when it's deserved and given some form of proof, but you're making a lot of claims for things with no facts or reports to it.

 

HHH political games seem to have started in 2001 when Stephanie was made the head writer. The crew prior to that WAS trying to make new stars. Summer/Fall 2000 rolls along though, Stephanie ends up in charge, and Jericho finds himself feuding with Kane over coffee. THAT is the most logical and likely starting point for Hunter's playing with the books.

 

EDIT Doh. Started writing a more angrier-toned letter, then switched to something softer toned mid way through, while still leaving the nasty stuff at the top.

[Guest papacita]

I take the opposite view on that. Chris Jericho deserved more than being stuck with Chyna like an albatross around his neck.

Who do you think pushed for that feud? The Observer reported that many people were against the Jericho/Chyna feud at the time because they didn't think it would be good for Jericho's career. But Triple H was WWF champion at the time, Chyna was his girlfriend and he used his power to make the feud happen.

 

I'm not going to say the feud was set-up to bury Jericho because it might not have been. But Jericho came off the feud with Chyna as the #2 babyface in the company behind only Rock, while Chyna was left with so little heat that they made her Jericho's manager to beg people to cheer for her again. I'm pretty sure that was not the plan either.

I agree that they went into that feud with intentions of Chyna going over Jericho, but to say that feud was made with the sole intention of burying Jericho is far-fetched. Like I already said, Jericho was doing nothing at the time, Chyna was the #2 Champion in the fed with no one to work with after Jarrett left, both had pretty good crowd heat, so that's a logical decision to throw those to together. I'll agree with you that when starting the feud, they probably didn't have plans on taking the belt off of Chyna, but what reason would they have for burying Jericho? Shit, what reason would HHH have for trying to bury Jericho at that time (or even now for that matter)? Geez, I hate HHH too, but really, he can't be blamed for EVERYTHING.

 

 

Edit: And for whatever it's worth, I still cheered for Chyna....

[Guest GenerationNever]

I really think the WWE would have been a lot better if Joanie and Rena never joined.

[Guest papacita]

Now if that happened, I wouldn't have anybody to obsess over.

[Guest bcu1979]

I'm all for HHH flaming when it's deserved and given some form of proof, but you're making a lot of claims for things with no facts or reports to it.

 

HHH political games seem to have started in 2001 when Stephanie was made the head writer. The crew prior to that WAS trying to make new stars. Summer/Fall 2000 rolls along though, Stephanie ends up in charge, and Jericho finds himself feuding with Kane over coffee. THAT is the most logical and likely starting point for Hunter's playing with the books.

 

EDIT Doh. Started writing a more angrier-toned letter, then switched to something softer toned mid way through, while still leaving the nasty stuff at the top.

The only claim that I made was that Triple H pushed for the Jericho/Chyna feud when others in the company where against it. My main point was that I think it's naive to believe that the problems with the creative team have nothing to do with all the backstage going-ons. The creative team's record as of late has been abysmal.

But there were backstage situations that played a hand in many of their failed storylines.

 

Meltzer brought up the Chyna/Jericho stuff again a while back. I believe when he was writing about Chyna's history in the company after she was released. He said there were many people in the company against the idea of a Jericho/Chyna feud at the time. But Triple H had stroke even back then because he was the champ and he wanted his girlfriend pushed strong.

 

The summer of 2000 when Stephanie became head writer was when the backstage politics first became obvious on camera. (i.e. - Jericho/Triple H feud, Angle/Stephanie/Triple H triangle, Benoit/Triple H feud - all ending with Triple H looking great and the rising stars losing some of their luster.)

 

But that doesn't mean there wasn't anything going on before then. Triple H was a member of the Kliq and the shit they stirred has been well documented. It's not like he had never heard of backstage politics before he started dating the boss's daughter.

[Guest Gomezticator]

The Memphis booking has absolutely killed the credibility of most every heel in the WWE, and while the casual fans wanna see Hogan hit the Legdrop, Rocky hit the Rock Bottom and Peeple's Elbow, etc, not having that happen and letting the heel get a clean win after hitting HIS finisher gets him over as a legit threat to their beloved faces, and builds tension for the eventual blowoff down the road.

 

But we're instead getting what we're getting now, and that's why ratings and PPV buyrates are absolute crap right now.

[Guest evenflowDDT]

Do they really not care? Not all casual fans are like that. I know quite a few personally that tuned out because there's not enough wrestling to the program. Which is true.

 

It's not any fun to watch when the faces beat everybody. *shrugs* IMO..it's better to cheer somebody because you want to see them beat their opponent..than just to cheer them for moves and catchprases.

I agree fully, and wish it weren't so, but watch any show and there are only two "real" reactions: the cheers for The Rock or RVD (or Hogan... sigh...) and the boo's for Vince McMahon. Everything else is either tepid, representing the care less attitude of the fans towards anyone whose name doesn't end with Johnson.

 

I hate faces in general, ESPECIALLY monster faces, because they don't have to try hard but still are made to look like the better man/bad-ass every time, and cheered to the moon!

 

I think some of the casual fans may be starting to realize, but not enough to demand or care about the changes that would give up their invincible Rocky and Hogan. I have to hope this recent poor showing on Smackdown!, even with the much-hyped Rock return, is the first wake-up call to the WWE that they need more than monster faces in this wrestling decline.

[Guest evenflowDDT]

Oh, Gomezticator, what do you mean by the term "Memphis booking"?

[Guest gwf0704]

Smarks have to give credit to WCW in this regard. Heels would win a lot of the matches in the company. The best example is when the NWO first arrived and they were demolishing Sting, Macho Man, Benoit, Luger.... It made it look like these former WWF guys could come in and take over which gave them incredible heel heat, along with the Hogan face turn. And dont even start with "well Goldberg always won." Yeah, at first, but then he loses the title to Nash and also was beaten by Big Poppa Pump in his last appearance with the company (loser leave WCW).

 

I also thought they were doing a pretty good turn with the New Blood v Old Stars as Palumbo got over on Luger, Vampiro beat Sting, Kidman pinned Hogan and Mike Sanders would one up Flair. At least they were trying to push new stars at the end with them winning a majority of the matches.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

One of the best feuds? Malenko/Jericho.

 

Jericho had the upper hand on him until Dean -finally- got his hands on the egotistical little punk. One of the best things WCW ever did.