Guest mickberna Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 I couldn't understand what everyone was up in arms about when I read the PPV thread... what was wrong with the way the PPV was booked? Benoit loses... so he lost. Big deal. He can't win every match, and he and Eddie have been fucking up the Dudleys for a month. And the match was really good. Noble retains... good match, good outcome. Cena wins... Jericho puts over a deserving new guy, gets his heat back later in the night. Hardy retains... no problems here. Regal's new angle advances. RVD wins by DQ... well, this situation was screwy to begin with, and Brock going to the ME of SS is not looking to be a good decision, but how else would you book the ending of this match to keep them both looking strong? Booker destroys Show... awesome spots, Booker finally wins a big one. Canadians win with help from Jericho... good feud, excellent new twist. Build up new tag champs and new stable. HHH segments... backstage stuff short and entertaining, in-ring stuff also good, and shorter than everyone expected. Bischoff and Steph are both doing well. Rock wins title... again, WWE painted themselves into a corner before this show with the Brock experiment, so this was entirely logical. --------------------- So I ask y'all, besides the obvious (Brock), what was really wrong with the booking tonight? Or the show as a whole, for that matter? I just saw so many complaints specifically about the booking, with every other damn post ending with "Fuck you WWE" or "Fuck you Vince" or "Goddamn fucking damn poop, nee! NEE! NEE!" Now don't flame with the usual "Another anti-smark post" nonsense, because that's not what this is. I'm just very curious as to what all the bitching was about.
Guest bps "The Truth" 21 Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 "He can't win every match" Has Benoit won anything since he had to spend a year recovering from NECK SURGERY????? oh yeah...he survived the 6 man on Raw when Jeff HArdy was too tough to tap out to the crossface...and Bubba never got pinned. I hope to God that Benoit goes up with RVD and they feud now.
Guest jimmy no nose Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 I didn't see too big a problem with anything either.
Guest chirs3 Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 Benoit loses... so he lost. Big deal. He can't win every match, and he and Eddie have been fucking up the Dudleys for a month. And the match was really good. -----> He and Eddie have been fucking up the Dudleyz for a month after losing to them every Raw. Noble retains... good match, good outcome. -----> Yea. Cena wins... Jericho puts over a deserving new guy, gets his heat back later in the night. -----> If Cena was sold as a threat, like "Oh my god it's Cena!", then I wouldn't mind. But he's being shilled as a young up and comer with a bright future. That's why he shouldn't be going over Jericho. Hardy retains... no problems here. Regal's new angle advances. -----> Good booking. RVD wins by DQ... well, this situation was screwy to begin with, and Brock going to the ME of SS is not looking to be a good decision, but how else would you book the ending of this match to keep them both looking strong? -----> I'd book RVD winning, maybe with botched interference. The next night, have Bischoff be all "You know what... RVD won, so I'm stripping you of your title shot, Lesnar, and giving it to him." Lesnar destroys Heyman for the botched interference and is set for now, away from the title. Booker destroys Show... awesome spots, Booker finally wins a big one. -----> Good booking. Canadians win with help from Jericho... good feud, excellent new twist. Build up new tag champs and new stable. -----> Good booking. HHH segments... backstage stuff short and entertaining, in-ring stuff also good, and shorter than everyone expected. Bischoff and Steph are both doing well. -----> Agreed. Rock wins title... again, WWE painted themselves into a corner before this show with the Brock experiment, so this was entirely logical. -----> Logical's not the word. But they booked themselves into a really deep hole.
Guest Vyce Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 I couldn't understand what everyone was up in arms about when I read the PPV thread... what was wrong with the way the PPV was booked? Benoit loses... so he lost. Big deal. He can't win every match, and he and Eddie have been fucking up the Dudleys for a month. And the match was really good. Noble retains... good match, good outcome. Cena wins... Jericho puts over a deserving new guy, gets his heat back later in the night. Hardy retains... no problems here. Regal's new angle advances. RVD wins by DQ... well, this situation was screwy to begin with, and Brock going to the ME of SS is not looking to be a good decision, but how else would you book the ending of this match to keep them both looking strong? Booker destroys Show... awesome spots, Booker finally wins a big one. Canadians win with help from Jericho... good feud, excellent new twist. Build up new tag champs and new stable. HHH segments... backstage stuff short and entertaining, in-ring stuff also good, and shorter than everyone expected. Bischoff and Steph are both doing well. Rock wins title... again, WWE painted themselves into a corner before this show with the Brock experiment, so this was entirely logical. --------------------- So I ask y'all, besides the obvious (Brock), what was really wrong with the booking tonight? Or the show as a whole, for that matter? I just saw so many complaints specifically about the booking, with every other damn post ending with "Fuck you WWE" or "Fuck you Vince" or "Goddamn fucking damn poop, nee! NEE! NEE!" Now don't flame with the usual "Another anti-smark post" nonsense, because that's not what this is. I'm just very curious as to what all the bitching was about. I don't mind if Benoit loses.....to a worthy opponent. That Fat Fuck, aka Bubba, is the farthest thing from a worthy opponent this side of Jackie Gayda. My theory is that they will have Noble retain until Rey can dethrone him. Hopefully then setting up a Kidman / Rey Jr. feud. I don't mind so much that Cena won.....it just sucks that Jericho (and to a lesser extent, Angle) always have to be the guys who put the new talent over. Because others aren't willing too *coughcoughHHHcoughcough*. Jeff Hardy with a belt is not a good thing, IMO. Unless it's the Hardcore title, where there's a chance the idiot will literally cripple himself. RVD should have won clean. AND he should get the title shot. But it's full steam ahead for the Next Boring Thing. I can't stand it that this guy is gonna be our next champ. Always good to see Booker win cleanly. It looks like he's going to be involved in a HHH / HBK angle, though, so the pessimist in me is waiting for the other shoe to drop. New tag team champs? Works for me. Rock winning the title pisses me off. For 2 reasons - it IS painting themselves into a corner with Brock (they didn't have to have THIS face fight THAT heel at the PPV), and also, Rock should NOT win any title, at all, for the short amount of time he's there. It devalues the title even more. I didn't like Taker as champ. But he held it for what? 2 months, 3 months? Now, Rock comes back after several months off, and wins the title after only, I believe, his second match since his return. All of this just to have him lose the title (probably) to Brock in a few weeks. It's hotshotting, in this case doing more damage than good.
Guest Your Olympic Hero Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 Note on Regal: Is his new character the EXACT same thing that Christian went through a few months ago? Throwing the temper tantrums and crying? Hopefully he ends his losing streak at Summerslam by beating the HELL out of Hardy and making him tap like the little girl he is in the Regal Stretch. Fuck brass knuckles.
Guest wwF1587 Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 Vengence wasnt perfect, but I think it was a better show than what has recently been put on.
Guest Nevermortal Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 Yeah, it was better than the pieces of shit that were KoTR & Judgment Day.
Guest Mindless_Aggression Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 The actual wrestling was damn solid, especially the main event which shocked the ever loving shit out of me by being very well worked by all participants. Obviously the booking was just awful, but eh, you can't expect both out of the WWE at the same time. Coherent booking AND some good wrestling? FEH.
Guest mickberna Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 Obviously the booking was just awful... This is what I'm talking about. Why was it awful? Check out the previous posts, you'll see what I mean.
Guest humongous2002 Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 This ppv was way better than the crap the WWE been giving us lately,there were 2 dissapointments at the ppv:Benoit jobbing to Bubba tough and Y2J jobbing to the rookie John Cena. Everything else went from good to great, RVD versus Brock was good b/c Van Dam carried the next big nothing to a good match and he came out looking like a million bucks, while Lesnar just needs to stay as a midcarder for a while or otherwise the fans are going to start giving him Xpac heat(any heat is better than getting no heat at all except for the get out of my tv heat), HGH's decision bored the shit out of me so I went to take a crap,in other words I didn't give a van dam about him.The main event was pretty entertaining thank God for Angle, too bad he did the job instead of that Oldman inc.
Guest RavishingRickRudo Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 Benoit loses... so he lost. Big deal. He can't win every match, and he and Eddie have been fucking up the Dudleys for a month. And the match was really good. A year earlier Benoit was Main Eventing and putting on MOTYC's... Now he is not only curtain jerking against two low level employees in the Dudleys, but he fucking loses as well. Hell, even if he had won he still wouldn't have *won*, since it was a no-win situation in the first place. Noble retains... good match, good outcome. The feud itself was poorly booked, kidmans motivation for winning the title was unestablished and therefore no one really cared about this match. But you know what? With these two talents in the ring, with the right time, they could have MADE the fans care with their dynamic offense... The key part in that was *with the right time*, this match allowed neither man to get over. Cena wins... Jericho puts over a deserving new guy, gets his heat back later in the night. Deserving new guy? WTF? I can't see how Cena is legitimately deserving, or even deserving in the Storyline sense. Usually the term 'deserving' implies dedication, commitment, over-coming barriers, and also usually comes after years or hard work... Cena challenged Angle on smackdown, then tagged with the World fucking champion... So where does Cena go from this? Because the next person has to be Angle, Taker, Rock... AKA the people above Jericho on Smackdown for his win to mean anything. Hardy retains... no problems here. Regal's new angle advances. Why was this match even on the card? RVD wins by DQ... well, this situation was screwy to begin with, and Brock going to the ME of SS is not looking to be a good decision, but how else would you book the ending of this match to keep them both looking strong? Have RVD cleanly win, then have Lesnar go on a rampage putting RVD in the hospital for a month, then have lesnar destroy all the talent possible for him to get his heat (whatever heat he had) back. Have lesnar beat the champ at summerslam, claim to be unbeatable, and have RVD come out and say otherwise... Seems simple enough. Booker destroys Show... awesome spots, Booker finally wins a big one. Against the fucking Big Show. A man heat has beaten before, a man who everyone, seemingly, has beaten. Canadians win with help from Jericho... good feud, excellent new twist. Build up new tag champs and new stable. Good Feud? Oh yeah, the whole 2 weeks it was developed in. This didn't make sense at all. The Edge/Hogan pairing was totally meaningless. HHH segments... backstage stuff short and entertaining, in-ring stuff also good, and shorter than everyone expected. Bischoff and Steph are both doing well. Shorter? I heard they got 20 fucking minutes! This is a PPV, if ppl wanted a 20 minute promo they would just watch RAW. Rock wins title... again, WWE painted themselves into a corner before this show with the Brock experiment, so this was entirely logical. Why does Rock get the title? How did he 'earn' his spot? The only thing 'logical' about having Rock as champ is so he can be on both Raw and Smackdown, and even the ratings have shown that the rocks return doesn't bring ratings, so this is pointless. Rock vs. Brock won't do anything. People do not get 'made' by the Rock. Benoit, Jericho, Booker, Angle, Rikishi.. All have feuded with the Rock and all came out the same as they came in.
Guest Brian Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 "Benoit loses... so he lost. Big deal. He can't win every match, and he and Eddie have been fucking up the Dudleys for a month. And the match was really good." Benoit deserves to win in his return to PPV. A guys who just got off a neck injury, no matter what the case, shouldn't have to go through a table like that. "Noble retains... good match, good outcome." Agreed. "Cena wins... Jericho puts over a deserving new guy, gets his heat back later in the night." I don't like the getting heat thing, but the finish did alot to help Cena and really did nothing to hurt Jericho, so I had no problem with it. "Hardy retains... no problems here. Regal's new angle advances." Ugh. I can't stand Jeff's singles push. It makes no sense. "RVD wins by DQ... well, this situation was screwy to begin with, and Brock going to the ME of SS is not looking to be a good decision, but how else would you book the ending of this match to keep them both looking strong?" Well, RVD has come out looking stronger every time, so I have Brock go over, than have RVD win Monday for the title shot and have Steph announce on Thursday that she negotiated with Heyman to bring Brock to SmackDown which leads to the Brock face run because he couldn't get his title shot. "Booker destroys Show... awesome spots, Booker finally wins a big one." When the fans realized that Booker could win that match, they came alive. "Canadians win with help from Jericho... good feud, excellent new twist. Build up new tag champs and new stable." They should have milked the edge turn but I'm seriously starting to see that they might be turning Jericho in HHH's absense. "HHH segments... backstage stuff short and entertaining, in-ring stuff also good, and shorter than everyone expected. Bischoff and Steph are both doing well." They were entertaining, but in that everything is backhanded comment, double-edged sword of irony type of way. Like HBK in his promo, and than think about the MSGincident. "Rock wins title... again, WWE painted themselves into a corner before this show with the Brock experiment, so this was entirely logical." Well, like I've been pimping around here they could have gone with the RVD push and had Brock signed to SmackDown as Steph's retaliation resulting in Brock turning. --------------------- "So I ask y'all, besides the obvious (Brock), what was really wrong with the booking tonight? Or the show as a whole, for that matter? I just saw so many complaints specifically about the booking, with every other damn post ending with "Fuck you WWE" or "Fuck you Vince" or "Goddamn fucking damn poop, nee! NEE! NEE!" Now don't flame with the usual "Another anti-smark post" nonsense, because that's not what this is. I'm just very curious as to what all the bitching was about." Well, I'mnot to happy about Rock winning the title despite my liking of him. I'm not happy in Brock going to SummerSlam. I thought that despite the gimmick, Benoit should have still been given the benefit in his return to win. I think the Hogan-Edge thing should have been milked longer; but if the plans are for a double turn with Edge and Jericho it might be worth it. But it was probably the best overall show this year in that nothing that I outright hated.
Guest Kinetic Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 My main problem with the booking was the Benoit loss. I was under the impression that Bubba was just being used as a way to get Benoit back into the mix before they elevated him once more. Having him lose his first PPV match back doesn't seem to do much in accomplishing that. And then the Brock thing. It's been said before but I feel it warrants reiteration: If you're going to push someone, fucking commit to pushing them. These half-assed, wishy-washy non-finishes aren't doing anything for anyone. Brock now looks like a total loser who has no chance at SummerSlam, considering that he couldn't even win the damn IC title and had to rely on his manager just to keep from losing the match.
Guest Hogan Made Wrestling Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 "People do not get 'made' by the Rock. Benoit, Jericho, Booker, Angle, Rikishi.. All have feuded with the Rock and all came out the same as they came in." That's a load of crap. With the exception of Booker, all of those guys were moving up due to feuding with the Rock, and in each case it was HHH that brought them back down. 1. Jericho. His feud with the Rock was the best of 2001 and into early 2002. He won the title and beat the Rock about 5 times along the way. It wasn't until NWO-onwards that he started looking like shit. 2. Angle. He beat the Rock to win the title in 2000, then won again in HIAC. He started losing his momentum when Austin vs. HHH replaced his title run as the top storyline. 3. Benoit and Rikishi. Here's a 2-for-1 special! Benoit got over big as a heel fighting the Rock and getting screwed by Mick Foley. Rikishi was getting over as a heel from the Austin angle. Then HHH turns heel and is revealed as "the mastermind", which buries Rikishi as a stooge, and also hurts Benoit by dropping him to the #2 or 3 heel spot since HHH beat him as a face right before then.
Guest MrRant Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 Deserving new guy? WTF? I can't see how Cena is legitimately deserving, or even deserving in the Storyline sense. Usually the term 'deserving' implies dedication, commitment, over-coming barriers, and also usually comes after years or hard work... Cena challenged Angle on smackdown, then tagged with the World fucking champion... So where does Cena go from this? Because the next person has to be Angle, Taker, Rock... AKA the people above Jericho on Smackdown for his win to mean anything. Why the hell does someone have to have been around for years to get a win over someone higher than them? This is what pisses me off. Just because you have been there X number of years doesn't mean you don't deserve a push. You people want some new talent at somewhat the top but he beats a guy like Jericho and you bitch. God forbid he beat Angle. You wouldn't have a problem if it were Taker, Rock, or HHH. He just isn't who YOU think should be pushed. Make up your fucking minds goddamnit.
Guest Kinetic Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 I don't think Cena should be put over at Jericho's expense, personally. The guy should really be proving his merit in the midcard right now, while Jericho should be above and beyond all that.
Guest MrRant Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 If Jericho is a TRUE main eventer than losing won't hurt him. A main eventer doesn't need to always win. And a lot of people seem to think that Jericho/Angle/Benoit need to win every goddamn match. Doesn't hurt the Rock or Angle or even Taker. The reason it hurts HHH and he always has to get his heat back is because right now he knows he isn't a main event guy right now and losing could knock him out of the spot light in the eyes of the fans.
Guest RavishingRickRudo Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 Disagreed (of course). After Rocks feud Benoit went back down and had lil matches with Jericho. Hell, the only thing Benoit took out of his feud with the rock was getting his tooth mocked. Rikishi wasn't getting over at any point as a heel, stop being silly. I was just watching Jericho/Rock from RR today, Rock goes around making fun of jericho on the mic, Jericho comes out and says 'Stop taking me lightly' and Rock says 'I am not taking you lightly'.. Which was bullshit, cause his promos showed otherwise. The Rocks greatest strength is his promo, and in each time he is on the mic he just insults his opponent which leaves the fans with things like mocking the chokeslam, rather than fearing the challenger. The Rock will Mock Lesnar, mock Heyman, and no one will care that Lesnar beat the rock because the fans have almost no connection to the Rock, other than him being nothing more than a Jester in their squared court. Rock did have a great feud with Jericho, but for one second did you ever not see Jericho as a transitional, serious, champion? Did you see Angle as a threat? Billy Gunn? Benoit?
Guest Kinetic Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 Sure, but losing to a rookie who fellow main eventer Kurt Angle was able to beat doesn't make Jericho look any better. Also: Jericho hasn't won a PPV match since February. That's going to knock anyone down a peg in the fans' minds.
Guest MrRant Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 I have never seen Jericho as a serious champion because his current persona has been shit. And his previous ones have been shit... except for the win over HHH that was reversed and I blame the WWE for not going with that. If he turns it around with Team Canada then I may change my opinion.
Guest Brian Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 Actually, I think the best situation right now is to have Jericho pull off a double turn with Edge since it seems they're not going after the turn on Hogan. Jericho was a serious contender when he and Rock were both tweeners around No Mercy. He had a ton of credility after winning which the blew. Other than that, April was the only chance they've had with him. The Cena loss did nothing to hurt Jericho. He had the match won and I don't think the fans are really going to make much out of it. But he's been tarnished too heavily.
Guest RavishingRickRudo Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 Why the hell does someone have to have been around for years to get a win over someone higher than them? This is what pisses me off. Just because you have been there X number of years doesn't mean you don't deserve a push. You people want some new talent at somewhat the top but he beats a guy like Jericho and you bitch. God forbid he beat Angle. You wouldn't have a problem if it were Taker, Rock, or HHH. He just isn't who YOU think should be pushed. Make up your fucking minds goddamnit. Um, 'make up your fucking minds goddamnit'? What am I exactly indecisive about? I have never once said that I want a bland, generic, Wwf-style sports entertainer to be pushed. I don't think any one here has said that. There is a HUGE difference between 'new' talent, and 'good' talent. I want good talent pushed. I would have complained if this unproven, undeserving, Rookie got over anyone who has actually worked their way up to the top. How does Cena deserve his push? Justify to me how this green shit deserves anything? And then Justify to me how he deserves it over Jericho (I don't even LIKE Jericho, btw)? Something that pisses ME off is how people say 'well, you wanted new talent and now that they are being pushed you complain'. What 'we' wanted was for guys OTHER than Austin, HHH, and Rock taking up 85% of TV time. This did not necessarily mean that 'we' wanted some green fuckers from Ohio Valley to beat held down, yet incredibly talented and more than deserving wrestlers.
Guest geniusMoment Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 I just wanted to let everyone know that the core duo of writers that wrote wwf television from December 1999 to september 2000 were Chris Kreski and Tony Blacha while Gerwitz wrote the off the wall stuff like hand births. I just wanted to tell everyone that because everyone seems to love that time period and want those writers back so I figured I would give some names to you guys. So now instead of saying I want the person who wrote the storylines in 2000 you can just say the name.
Guest MrRant Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 What makes Jericho more deserving? What if Cena (which I doubt this but still) has more talent in his left pinky toe and we haven't seen it just yet? Angle made quite an impression but it took about 3-4 months before everyone saw it.
Guest Brian Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 And he still wasn't really worth the hype until the summer of 2001.
Guest RavishingRickRudo Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 I have never seen Jericho as a serious champion because his current persona has been shit. And his previous ones have been shit... except for the win over HHH that was reversed and I blame the WWE for not going with that. If he turns it around with Team Canada then I may change my opinion. This is all nice and fine, but what does this have to do with a)Rock not getting Jericho over and b)The doubt of Rock not getting Lesnar over..
Guest Hitman Jebus Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 "Benoit loses... so he lost. Big deal. He can't win every match, and he and Eddie have been fucking up the Dudleys for a month. And the match was really good." Benoit deserves to win in his return to PPV. A guys who just got off a neck injury, no matter what the case, shouldn't have to go through a table like that. Benoit's neck was nowhere near in trouble...he broke the table with his BUTT as he was put through it by a "BubbaBomb"...it didn't look nasty at all...it looked really safe actually I didn't mind the Dudleys winning because: 1- it was a tables match, no pinfall win over Benoit 2- its the Dudleys type of match and I hate it when wrestlers always lose THEIR matches 3- if the WWE's gonna push Bubba, then fine...give him a win Either way, this was not a BIG match...so losing or winning isn't gonna push you up or down the WWE ladder. Seriously, if Benoit had won, what would have been the point. Besides, both Eddy and Benoit had singles wins over Bubba on RAW so, on the PPV, the face gets his revenge...man, start thinking like marks again...the formula is so simple! Hitman Jebus - BIG Benoit mark...but still is reasonable
Guest MrRant Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 If Jericho was as great as you say then he should be able to overcome the Rock with his own charisma... charisma can't be held down. I never said the Rock will get Lesnar over.
Guest Brian Posted July 22, 2002 Report Posted July 22, 2002 Rock had Jericho over, until creative did a complete 360 and jobbed Jericho back two weeks later, and even than leading to royal rumble w/o the screwiness in that match, the finish was solid enough and the build strong enough to make Jericho still somewhat strong.
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