Jericho: Elevation?

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

Allright..I've been hearing this for a long time now.

 

"Jericho's being held down by Triple H"

 

That covers eighty percent of posts on this board. Now that we have that established, I want to ask..

 

Has anyone considered the fact Jericho may not have what it takes to 'break through'? Like it or not, he was given a shot at the big time, and it didn't work. He's not particularly one to make you sit up and take notice in the ring (RVD, Rocky) and he dosen't have a commanding presence (like it or not - HHH, Angle). His moveset dosen't look like it has any real impact, and the fact he works with bigger guys than he is makes him look very awkward out there. His finisher(s) don't look like they'd have that much effect..and since we're holding him 'as a guy that should be a main eventer'..he'll have to work with guys like UT, Kane, etc. It's it realistic that the Lionsault would keep a guy like HHH down, much less somebody 'taker's size?

 

Let's compare him with Angle, shall we?

 

Angle has sucessfully preformed his finisher on bigger guys. Both of them. The Anklelock is a realistic submission manuver, and the Angle Slam has impact, when he dosen't have to lay them down (Hogan).

 

Jericho's Lionsault dosen't appear to have the same impact, and the Breakdown(?) looks funny when he does it on anyone taller than he is.

 

I've been a Jericho mark since WCW..but over the course of the last year, or so..I've just lost interest. Not because of HHH's "antics", but because Jericho just isn't as exciting as he used to be a year ago in the WWE, much less like he was in WCW.

 

The major smark picks for elevation tend to be:

 

Angle, Jericho, Benoit, Booker, and RVD.

 

RVD, Angle, and Booker will make it if given the oppertunity, if only because of their combination of outstanding ringwork (Angle), charisma (Booker), or both (RVD).

 

Benoit's going to be a harder sell. He dosen't have the personality the other guys do..and let's face it..that counts a hell of a lot in the WWE. He'll either have to sprout one, or stay in the upper midcard slot forever.

 

Jericho, now.

 

This is where I want input.

 

Realistically, what would it take?

[Guest Shaved Bear]

he was crazy over when he first one the undisputed championship, he just needs to look credible against his opponents

[Guest Nezbyte]

I dont want Jericho to move up, i like where he is fine. Give me RVD as a main, with a feud against maybe Benoit. Good stuff, there.

[Guest cabbageboy]

I don't remotely think Jericho was "crazy over" when he first won the title. I mean, people thought the guy was a joke even then.

 

It's funny but for all the talk about HHH holding down guys like Jericho and Angle they have 3 world titles between them. Of course two of those were while HHH was hurt, but I digress. Heh.

 

Anyway Jericho is fucked at this point so stop worrying about him. There are half a dozen guys higher than him on the push list at this point (RVD, Benoit, Booker, Edge, Angle, Eddie).

[Guest BoboBrazil]

His world title push was screwed, because all they did was treat him like a jobber. He was barely ever in the main event as champion. They had him opening the show vs some midcarder that he couldn't even beat clean. No other champion has been treated like a jobber who can't even beat a midcarder clean. He was a capable world champion too, because ratings stayed steady while he was champion.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

When Jericho first started the "I'm a bigger star than you" feud with Rock, he was crazy over, morso than Rocky himself. Plain and simple. The potential is there for a new star, and even in the much watered down Living Legend character, had he gotten the feud with Ric Flair as World Champion that he's finally getting now, I think he would have made it. The program with Austin that made him look like a joke, and the atrocious "feud" (or whatever the fuck it was supposed to be) that he had with HHH killed the man's heat.

 

No doubt, Jericho could be a star if they wanted him to be one. They've got the opportunity to salavage something with this Ric Flair feud, but it's going to be hard considering what damage both men have taken to their credibility. It can still happen, though. All they need to do is try.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

He can't be over because he's never made to look credible. If he was made to look credible and didn't have to cheat to beat EVERYONE then maybe he would look credible.

Oh and he was crazy over the night he won the world title from HHH....

[Guest Trivia247]

It is hard to get Jericho and elevate him to Main Event stature, even with the vast experience he has attained from his travel in the wrestling world. Being the size of a Randy Savage in the 80's doesn't help matters much, and the argument to arrise from this is that Randy was also World Champion in the WWF. His first title Reigh he went back down to upper midcard status wrestling with the Likes of Ultimate Warrior Dusty Rhodes and the like. When he started bulking up he took on Ric Flair to win the Second title reign.

 

If Jericho is truly being kept down by HHH then its Regretable but There is a stigma being the size of Jericho that people like HBK can only be Elevated to Main Event status, even then by way of the KLIQ and Immense popularity.

 

Jericho Probably had a better shot to Main Event consistantly had he stayed a Face, because then at least he would have the Phenomnial Fan support which is half the way to the Top.

[Guest NoCalMike]

Well look at how Triple H was elevated. He got consecutive, definitive wins over Mick Foley. Foley wouldn't come out the next night after the PPV and try to tell everyone why Triple H's win doesn't count or doesn't matter. Foley was just helping make a new star. It seems Triple H is/was unwilling to do the same for Jericho. Everytime they wrestle Triple H seems to have some chip on his shoulder when it comes to Jericho and he won't work properly for/with him. Out of all the Triple H bashing I think his holding down of Jericho holds the most weight.

[Guest bcu1979]

Anyway Jericho is fucked at this point so stop worrying about him. There are half a dozen guys higher than him on the push list at this point (RVD, Benoit, Booker, Edge, Angle, Eddie).

Angle, I see as being above Jericho on the totem pole. RVD and possibly Benoit I could understand, although the WWE seems to have them all grouped together. But how in the heck is Jericho fucked, while guys like Booker and Eddie are ready to be pushed up to the top.

 

With his move to RAW, the WWE has yet another oppurtunity to push Jericho as a top star. A feud with Flair - done right - could completely re-energize Jericho's career.

 

If anyone is fucked, it's Booker. He's become the most overrated wrestler on the net. It's been over a year and he's yet to have a breakthrough match in the WWE. He's been in there with top wrestlers like Rock and Austin and has never stepped up to the plate and delivered like Angle, Jericho, RVD and Benoit did when they were given those oppurtunities. His match with Edge at Mania stunk. His populartity is already in the decline after he never got a big win over the NWO and now Shawn Michaels is going to be pushed as a top face. Sure, his skits with Goldust are entertaining and the spinaroonie gets a pop. But his solo interviews have been boring and heatless. (The one a couple weeks ago where he kept quoting his daddy was brutal.)

[Guest saturnmark4life]

I didn't think jericho was anywhere near ready for a title reign before his feud with the rock. but now he's one of my favourites in wwe. I think he needs to stick to his heel persona at this level. He's a good example of how important a good finisher can be. Course, if he made hogan tap out then he'd have his crediblity right there, but it's not happening now. Whilst going over flair should be enough rub for anyone, it just ain't like that.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

If anyone is fucked, it's Booker. He's become the most overrated wrestler on the net. It's been over a year and he's yet to have a breakthrough match in the WWE. He's been in there with top wrestlers like Rock and Austin and has never stepped up to the plate and delivered like Angle, Jericho, RVD and Benoit did when they were given those oppurtunities. His match with Edge at Mania stunk. His populartity is already in the decline after he never got a big win over the NWO and now Shawn Michaels is going to be pushed as a top face. Sure, his skits with Goldust are entertaining and the spinaroonie gets a pop. But his solo interviews have been boring and heatless. (The one a couple weeks ago where he kept quoting his daddy was brutal.)

Booker is also quite old and has deffinately been on the decline as a worker for a while now. He had some good/decent matches with Rock and Angle last year, some good/decent matches Austin this year, and that's been about it. I didn't see Booker/Benoit, but I highly doubt it was of the callibre that everyone associates with those two based on their WCW matches.

 

Booker was a talented tag wrestler who got his "break-out singles star" push way too late in his career to trully matter, best of seven series or not. Net hype or not, I think he's got a solid midcard character going and until he's ready to retire, has no place any higher up the card.

[Guest bcu1979]

Allright..I've been hearing this for a long time now.

 

"Jericho's being held down by Triple H"

 

That covers eighty percent of posts on this board. Now that we have that established, I want to ask..

 

Has anyone considered the fact Jericho may not have what it takes to 'break through'? Like it or not, he was given a shot at the big time, and it didn't work. He's not particularly one to make you sit up and take notice in the ring (RVD, Rocky) and he dosen't have a commanding presence (like it or not - HHH, Angle). His moveset dosen't look like it has any real impact, and the fact he works with bigger guys than he is makes him look very awkward out there. His finisher(s) don't look like they'd have that much effect..and since we're holding him 'as a guy that should be a main eventer'..he'll have to work with guys like UT, Kane, etc. It's it realistic that the Lionsault would keep a guy like HHH down, much less somebody 'taker's size?

I disagree with your notion that he was given a shot and it didn't work out. Has a WWE champion ever been treated as badly as Jericho was during the last month of his title reign? They made him play Stephanie's errand boy. Triple H treated him like a complete joke in interviews. He was busy walking dogs and buying hand lotion while Stephanie was the real star. How can you call that a fair effort to make him into a top main event star?

 

I also disagree with your idea that Jericho does not command attention. Look at his debut. Look at all his mic work with Rocky. How many other guys can go toe-to-toe with the Rock verbally besides Jericho and not get lost in the shuffle? Hell, he had the crowd eating out the palm of his hands the entire time he was a face. No matter how badly he was pushed the fans would still pop big for Jericho's entrance and chant along with all his catchphrases.

 

I do agree that he could find a more credible non-submission finish. The only problem with the WOJ is that no one taps out to it. The WOJ was over big time when people actually tapped out to it. The Lionsault does look weak at times and he would be better to find something new. But now that I think about it, the Lionsault was over big too when Jericho was a face and actually WON matches with it. No finisher is going to get over unless people actually get beat with it. And Jericho only wins matches by chairshots and putting his feet on the ropes so he never has a chance to get any finishers over.

 

The fans have seen him as being equal to Rock and Triple H in the past and they are the two biggest stars in the business. It's the WWE that has been hesitant to accept Jericho as a top star. Now that he's signed a new contract and Austin/Rock are both out of the picture for the most part, hopefully that will change.

 

If Jericho doesn't have what it takes to be a top star, then I'd like to know who does. Besides Angle and Rocky, I can't think of anyone who better fits the entire WWE package than Jericho does.

[Guest SuperTonyJaymz]

Jericho needs free reign in his promo work, a legit over finisher, and a hot angle.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

All Jericho needs is time... he isn't there yet but he'll get there eventually - HHH (OTR March 15th 2002)

[Guest Kid Kablam]

All Jericho needs is time... he isn't there yet but he'll get there eventually - HHH (OTR March 15th 2002)

Oh well, good thing HHH is putting Jericho over.... THREE YEARS TOO FRICKIN LATE!!!!!!!! Jericho IS ready! God I've been flaming too much today. Just call me George Michael from now on.

[Guest cabbageboy]

First off, I don't agree that HHH was trying to bury Jericho back in March leading up to WM. This makes no sense because why would HHH want to be involved in such a crappy feud? I mean, the dog shit angle hurt his credibility along with Jericho if you ask me.

 

I'll explain why Jericho is fucked. There are guys now that are clearly above him in the pecking order. Edge kicked his ass, he is above him now. RVD punked him out cleanly at KOTR and has beaten him damn near every time he's faced him. Losing to Cena doesn't hurt him much since it could be considered an upset.....losing to guys closer to his level is more costly.

 

Earlier I just tossed Eddie's name out there since he goes along with Benoit it seems like these days. I don't think he'll ever be a legit main eventer though. Eddie, Benoit, Booker are all getting a big old. So if you want those three can be tossed from the discussion.

 

That leaves RVD, Angle, Edge. Edge is hurt here because he has been a longtime tag wrestler and midcard guy, even a joke wrestler at times. Humor has a place in wrestling but that place isn't the main event. Edge has actually beaten quite a few guys too (RVD, Angle, Jericho, Booker) but I have yet to see these wins get him any more over or lead to a big push. Edge is also a bit questionable against a lesser opponent such as Test or Regal. Those matches were crap if you recall.

 

Angle is pretty much gonna get a push and is being pushed fairly well as it is, but he just isn't a fresh character. At this point people have a good idea of what Angle can do as a heel champ and as a face champ to some extent....he didn't draw as either.

 

That leaves RVD, who is the best choice to get a big push in my view. Unlike Edge he has had some decent outings against mediocre opponents, and seems to have more credibility to boot. He is a newer and fresher face than Angle and can be taken a bit more seriously. He's also not as old as Eddie, Benoit, and Booker but does have over a decade of experience. He has also not won a world title, so it'd be a big deal if he did.

 

As far as Jericho goes, never say never. But I don't see him ever getting a title push again.

[Guest Ph34r Tha Leaf]

Jericho was great as a heel in WCW because I think he had a little more control of his character and the writing was damn good. In the WWE, he was good as a face with okay writing.

 

If they'd just turn him face and throw him on the mic before matches like when he first came then he could get "crazy over." Funny promos before a great match = getting over.

 

As for his match quality, I think it's taking a slide because of how he feels in the business. He's not being used well so it's probably like, "They are just going to bury be anyway so I might as well just throw a few 'bos and not try as hard." I'd justify that if I was in his shoes.

 

But... if they bookers said, "Hey Chris, you're going face in a week with a huge push. Until then I expect you get back on track and knock of the ring rust. We're going balls out on this one, great wrestling and funny promos."

 

If he started beating credible guys and stopped playing a heelish bitch, he'd merge to a tweener and then the crowds would start poping to Lionsaults and his ringwork again at his got back to peak form. After that all he has make HHH tap to the Walls (that move needs to get over again and Jericho needs to do it right!! No more shitty-looking Crab, we need the Elevated Crab with the knee in the bakc of the neck to if HHH doesn't tpa legit, Y2J will tear his quad.

 

But then again, Jericho making HHH tap? Jericho beating HHH cleanly? Jericho beating him at all?

 

...As if. X-Pac wouldn't lay down for him.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

HHH didn't lose ANYTHING in his feud with Jericho in March, neither did Steph. The only person who got burried was Jericho. HHH had the momentum of his 'beautiful day' return plus he would get to be champ, he could afford a crappy feud. Of course, he never counted on Hulk Fn Hogan to rock the whirlwind so his title reign got shortened

 

I find it funny how HHH and Jericho could feud twice and Jericho gets burried both times.

[Guest Ph34r Tha Leaf]

Edge is also a bit questionable against a lesser opponent such as Test or Regal. Those matches were crap if you recall.

All Edge matches are crap, IMO. That is, unless he's teaming with Christian. Even then, it was more a about the LMAO promos/gimmicks or the TLC.

 

E&C FREAKING RULED IT!!! Why did they break up E&C/Hardyz/Dudleyz? Great matches and it was getting a tiny bit old but they could've just added some new element to the rotation. Anyways, E&C was pure gold. Funny as hell.

 

Now Edge just tries to live off old jokes and wrestle like shit in the ring. How he plays face makes me sick. Underdog, babyface, fighter for good. Just ugh.

 

Christian is better in the ring than Edge, IMO, but he's lacking a little as well. That's why they need eachother. Once one guy starts lossing the excitement of the match, tag, and the other picks up where he left off.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

HHH got to go on TV and say "you're not in my league" to Jericho every week, and he got the World Title. Somehow I doubt he was on the lossing end of that one.

[Guest Insane Clown Dan]

I think that Jericho is in serious need of a LASTING face turn. I remember when almost everybody was saying that he should be the arrogant, entertaining heel he was in WCW, but that didn't happen... he got turned into the standard WWF cowardly heel who only got a clean victory once a month. As stale as his face promos eventually got, at least the WWF wrote his material with some decency.

 

Also, I know that not everyone may agree with this, for some petty reason or whatever, but I think that Jericho is way less intimidating without the long hair... the short ponytail look makes him look chubby and unathletic. But that's just me, I guess.

 

Everyone should agree though that his finishing moves, especially the Walls of Jericho, only suck because he's been doing them even weaker and weaker in his WWF duration. I know that he has put strong, credible-looking WoJ submissions on the likes of HHH, Angle, Benoit and Stone Cold... and the only people he couldn't apply it to were the 7-footers, Undertaker and Kane.

 

Now he can't put a credible WoJ on ANYONE. It looked unique at one point... but it's been reduced from a modified boston crab to a plain one that really sucks.

 

Other than that, I really don't know what else makes Jericho suck... but the WWF and Jericho better solve his problems. And soon.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

That bothers me so much. HHH says 'you have 2 months to prove yourself' and you'd expect that Jericho would prove himself because usually the champion isn't the underdog... BUT NOTHING CAME OF IT!!!!! Jericho didn't prove himself, he didn't develop, he didn't improve, he just got Steph. So basically, what they were saying is: "Stephanie improves wrestlers and gives the advantage in any match, HHH is a high level competitor who can overcome boundaries, and Jericho is a lotion boy/dog walker who is nothing but a pawn in HHH and Stephanies lil game."

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Here is how it usually goes.

 

Big Ass Heel run THEN big ass face turn/run. Austin, HHH, Rock, you name it. All were giant heels THEN faces. Jericho needs that too. However, I think everyone will agree that Cowardly Heel/Cheap Victory Jericho is not the way to go... But that's the Wwf for ya, too scared to commit to anything.

[Guest Human Fly]

As Mick Foley put over HHH on his way out, it's time for Ric Flair to give that same kind of rub to Jericho.

 

I'm not saying Ric Flair should leave the WWE, but his days as a wrestler are coming to a close. Let Chris Jericho be the one who retires Flair. In WCW when Jericho was at his most over he was always keeping things from his feud (i.e. Juvi's mask). Now he could talk about being the one who retired Ric Flair. If Flair put him over in a similar fashion like Foley put over HHH it would be huge for Jericho. HHH is still talking about how he retired Foley. Can you imagine how long Jericho could talk about retiring Flair. I really like Foley, but I think a Flair retirement angle would carry more clout. Only a Hulk Hogan retirement angle would be bigger.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I think an Undertaker retirement angle would be biggest. Foleys retirement seemed shocking, because he was still a young guy. Flair and Hogan are really visually old, while Taker is still a believable wrestler. The person who retires the deadman will get the biggest rub of all...But of course, Taker will never retire, so this point is rather pointless.

[Guest Narcoleptic Jumper]

As Mick Foley put over HHH on his way out, it's time for Ric Flair to give that same kind of rub to Jericho.

 

I'm not saying Ric Flair should leave the WWE, but his days as a wrestler are coming to a close. Let Chris Jericho be the one who retires Flair. In WCW when Jericho was at his most over he was always keeping things from his feud (i.e. Juvi's mask). Now he could talk about being the one who retired Ric Flair. If Flair put him over in a similar fashion like Foley put over HHH it would be huge for Jericho. HHH is still talking about how he retired Foley. Can you imagine how long Jericho could talk about retiring Flair. I really like Foley, but I think a Flair retirement angle would carry more clout. Only a Hulk Hogan retirement angle would be bigger.

I honestly thinks that's EXACTLY what the WWE is going to do. I think Ric will explain that his big announcement was that he was going to retire from wrestling--and he still is, once he takes care of Jericho. But he won't quite take care of Jericho, he will give Chris the rub he needs and go out how he should--on his back.

[Guest The Czech Republic]

I don't think it's worth it to retire Flair as a way of giving Jericho the rub. Jericho really isn't that great anymore, thanks to HHH. He's gotten sloppy and WWEized, by putting lifts into his boots and weakening the moveset. His promos get bad, and his moveset gets more generic. WWE ruined Jericho, in my opinion.

[Guest cabbageboy]

That was an interesting post. I always hear about how WCW fucked over everybody and how WWE is this paradise where everyone gets along and so forth. Bullshit.

 

How many guys have jumped from WCW to the WWF in the past 5 years and really gotten the better of the deal? Yeah you can say guys like Foley and Austin (though they didn't jump RIGHT to the WWF) but they came at a time when the WWF sucked and needed new bodies to stop the bleeding. Let's review a few names shall we:

 

Big Show: he was perhaps the first guy in a series of WCW guys to jump. In WCW he was a feared giant, won the world title, had credibility. In the WWF he became a lazy piece of shit, got sent to OVW, jobbed out constantly. Maybe he doesn't care since he's getting paid, I dunno.

 

Jericho: we've covered him in the post. In WCW he had probably the best run of his career in 1998 as he pissed off Malenko, annoyed JJ Dillon, etc. In the WWF he has been buried, jobbed to Chyna, watered down his moveset, etc.

 

Raven: he didn't directly jump to the WWF (had the ECW stint in between) but his departure was the death knell on Bischoff due to the notorious "get it or go" speech. Raven hasn't been used anywhere near as well in the WWF, hasn't had many good matches, and is now banned from Raw.

 

Radicals: Saturn and Malenko are in the where are they now file. Neither has ever gotten a real push and Saturn even had to fuck a mop. Benoit has done pretty well, about the same as in WCW but no world title wins. Eddie has done well when not in rehab (I hope he and Chavo do an angle now that he's on SMDN).

 

Oddly enough I think the ECW guys have done better in the WWF than WCW.

[Guest Brian]

"First off, I don't agree that HHH was trying to bury Jericho back in March leading up to WM. This makes no sense because why would HHH want to be involved in such a crappy feud? I mean, the dog shit angle hurt his credibility along with Jericho if you ask me."

 

That's totally a booking fault (even though HHH didn't help much with appearances). But, that's booking's problem in that they blew the Triple H comeback.

 

The problem with Jericho is he's not made to look credible.