Kurt Angle's in ring skills.

[Guest TheyCallMeMark]

Hey I figured coming off a twenty minute match of his that everyone saw, it might be a good time to talk about Angle's in-ring abilities. For awhile there, I thought he really looked invincable-incapable of any error. His bumping is excellent, his timing is perfect, his suplexes are astounding and his kickouts are 2.999. But I think I was giving him even more credit that that before I saw the Edge/Angle thing on SmackDown, because in a sense I feel he was really exposed as still having alot to learn. I basically placed him as the third best worker on the roster. I have been dissolutioned. If we for get the rediculously mediocre restart, I would shrug, pass by the poor selling and call the match ***3/4. That extra five minutes pissed me off.

 

I loved the beggining portions of the match, with Edge's good (though perhaps a little disjointed) arm work, and was really digging Angle's comeback with the rib work (which was also, forgivably, a little disjointed). Edge sold like a champ (I think Eddy taught him alot) and Angle's was quite good also. I was super suprised about something though; Edge's perfomance was miles better than Angle's. I really beleived Edge was getting tore up bad while Angle decided to forget about the arm-work after about two minutes. In any case, I thought the matches psychology was still pretty alright, Angle's offense coincided with the ribs being sore- but give me a friggin' break! The ankle-lock? Why would he do that after spending the whole match with the ribs. I dunno, but that really pissed me off. Anyway, personally, I think the faceplant Edge did should have ended the match, as it tied in arm-work in kind of interestingly (he used to tender arm to for the face into the mat) and I like to pretend they did that move for that bit of psych.

 

That's all I really have to say about that match, as the rest of it was killed by the booking, not the wrestlers. Suffice to say Eddy/Edge was much more satisfying.

 

Now, I don't know about you guys, but I am almost starting to think that Edge is passing Kurt Angle up in the knowing what the hell is going on throughout the match department. (Partially I think we need to thank Eddy for showing him through his matches how to sell properly. The thing is I've come to think Benoit didn't actually show Kurt how but just carried him instead. But I don't actually know anything about that.) Edge's selling was better, timing was as good, and his offense is starting to seem as effective. Now maybe if they took the fourteen inch lifts off of his shoes I would like him better. I appreciate that more serious turn the WWE is trying to give his character last night; because I think it singals that maybe the WWE is going to try more of a wrestling-based puro-esque approach to their business. To me, Kurt didn't really seem like he could carry a serious character, but Edge was actually pretty beleiveable.

 

Not to say Kurt isn't a great wrestler-because he is-I just think that once he works a match besides his generic WWE one, he's still a bit green and shakey. But Angle learned how to put on WWE-style match very quickly, so I don't doubt he'll be able to learn other match types as well as Vince starts expecting more matwork and psychology.

 

Thoughts?

[Guest FeArHaVoC]

<Now, I don't know about you guys, but I am almost starting to think that Edge is passing Kurt Angle up in the knowing what the hell is going on throughout the match department.>

 

Oh Brother! Watch your Ass, because it's about to be flamed.

[Guest Dale Newstead]

I read the first paragraph and thought it was B.S.

 

It takes a certain kind of critic to complain about a 25 minute television match with too great workers and that my friend is someone who doesn't want to enjoy themselves.

[Guest Dale Newstead]

Also, there's nothing wrong with going for the ankle lock even though you work on the ribs. The move would further immobilize the opponent while he also has to pay attention to the ribs. So it's good strategy nonetheless.

 

Also, I didn't see the match but I've heard people rant and rave, and so what if it wasn't THAT good. Every other time I've seen Angle he's delivered. I like Benoit better but damn, Angle doesn't need to be carried by him.

 

Also in a match for me, the psychology doesn't have to be impecable. As long as their's a smooth flow and a good crisp delivery on all the moves there's not much to complain about. Also, if you see a hole in the psychology just rationalize to an extent. Maybe Angle shook off the pain in his arm quickly because Edge didn't do enough damage. Don't try to find reasons not to enjoy the match, try to find reasons to enjoy the match.

[Guest Angle-plex]

This topic so ridiculous I don't know where to begin. I'll post later with my real post here later.

[Guest Cataclysm911]

This topic so ridiculous I don't know where to begin. I'll post later with my real post here later.

If your "real" post is as poorly written as those two sentences, don't bother.

[Guest RedJed]

All I have to say is Angle is one of the best matworkers of the modern age, bar-none. Any match Angle had with Benoit wasn't typical "WWF style" so thinking that all he's good at is working a kick-punch-highspot-irish whip style is fucking ridiculous. Also, his match with Lesnar at a house show here in MN had ground matwork for the first 13 minutes so what are you talking about? The guy EXCELS in it, he's a goddamn college/olympic wrestler for god's sakes.

 

This guy who started this post is going to have some definate crow to eat down the road, me thinks.

[Guest Pop Culture God]

I have a lot of non-Smark opinions, but I have to admit these truths:

 

Angle is the WWE's great white hope.

 

Angle and Lesnar ARE the WWE's future.

 

They both can speak and wrestle well.

 

Angle is one of the top 10 wrestlers in the world bar-none.

 

I will be proven right when WrestleMania 19 with an Angle/Lesnar Unification ME gets the biggest buy rate since WM 17.

[Guest Angle-plex]

This topic so ridiculous I don't know where to begin. I'll post later with my real post here later.

If your "real" post is as poorly written as those two sentences, don't bother.

Sorry, had a tough night last night.

[Guest TheyCallMeMark]

I wasn't really complaining so much about the match, it was alright. Personally I just wouldn't want to watch it again, so it doesn't score a lot of points with me.

 

And to the argument were I'm bitter; I'm really not. I watch SmackDown!, because, you know, I like it. I just thought the match was alright. I liked the Rey/Benoit match alot more. By the way, just because a match goes on for 25 minutes doesn't make me automatically have to like it, you know? I feel that the length of time given to a match is really inconsequential in itself, it's the body of the match the workers present that counts. That's why I happen to have liked Benoit/Rey much, much more. This match was properly presented and finished at the 15 minute mark, and would have been god damn great. The excsess five minutes ruined it for me. And, there is something wrong with the use of the ankle lock. He wasn't trying to immobilize Edge, he was trying to make him tap, so why not try working the body part you've spent the better part of the match on? To get the pop. They went from wanting to put on a great, great match to wanting to pop the crowd.

 

Angle is not in the top 10. I could see it argued that there are 5 workers in the WWE who are better than he is. And for christ sakes, you'd think I'd have said "ANGLE SUCKS OMG GET THAT HACK OFF MY TV!" I am a HUGE Angle fan. Huge. I love his work in the ring, and I love watching him wrestle. He's easily one of my favourite wrestlers, ever. I'm just saying he needs some work because he has weak areas in his work.

 

Having a great match with Benoit doesn't make you great, by the way.

 

Really, I don't see why my post warrants such angry replies, I'm not bashing anyone. I was just trying to strike up a discussion about Angle, and how I felt about his work. So can we all try to be intelligent about it?

[Guest Dale Newstead]

Your posts requires anger because you're complaining about something that really, means nothing in the long run. The length of a match has to do with the qualitym especially when it's Angle vs. Edge. Add that to the fact it was a t.v. match.

 

All I saw you do in the first post was nitpick. Also, Angle is easily in the top 10 in the world.

[Guest Anglesault]

I could see it argued that there are 5 workers in the WWE who are better than he is.

Yes, there's Chris Benoit, Eddy Guerrero, The Crippler, Latino Heat, and "Crippler Heat" Eddy Benoit. Besides those 4...er, 2, Who else?

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

I will be proven right when WrestleMania 19 with an Angle/Lesnar Unification ME gets the biggest buy rate since WM 17.

That's a pretty bold prediction.

[Guest Anglesault]

Well lets's see.

Lesnar=Shit

Angle=Bad face

Only one title on SD.

[Guest Brian]

Top ten in the world is still pushing it.

 

I agree that Angle really has small, minor problems in his work but it's really nothing to get worked up about.

 

I could, without problem, put Eddie and Benoit ahead of him. I think him and Mysterio are neck and neck. Regal **given the opportunity and situation** could be up there with him. Knoble is in that upper tier too. Jericho, when motivated, matches well with Kurt's ability. I'm sure there's some people here who wqould be keen to argue for the Rock.

[Guest Ping Von Erich]

Brock is being billed a monster "Goldberg" type so that's the way he wrestles . . . he wasn’t an NCAA Heavyweight champ for his dashing good looks. Lesnar just needs to be let loose to wrestle how he pleases . . . think about it . . . 23 year old right out of college spends like a year or two in OVW as a tag team wrestler and all of a sudden before he can spit he's WWE Champ and main evening PPV's . . . maybe he's a little overwhelmed . . . taking any advise from the guys in the back to be a "team player" . . . Brock can wrestle trust me.

[Guest Kid Kablam]

Let's not forget how long Angle has been wrestling. He only started watching Wrestling when WWE offered him a spot. Benoit, Jericho, Eddy, and Rey have all been wrestling for a long long time. Psychology is something you pick up over time.

[Guest Pop Culture God]

Angle/Lesnar has all the makings of a classic WrestleMania feud: An unstoppable monster heel champion, a relentless and determined face who THE ODDS ARE AGAINST.

 

If the WWE can keep the title on Brock till WM he will massivly over by killing every challenger and the fans WANT to cheer for Angle, it's just he always ends up looking like a douchebag.

[Guest Anglesault]

If the WWE can keep the title on Brock till WM he will massivly over by killing every challenger

Oh, yeah, that will be good for business. Have a terrible champ kill everyone so he can drop the title to a guy who will be playing a role he sucks at.

[Guest Pop Culture God]

If the WWE can keep the title on Brock till WM he will massivly over by killing every challenger

Oh, yeah, that will be good for business. Have a terrible champ kill everyone so he can drop the title to a guy who will be playing a role he sucks at.

Anglesault:

 

1. Brock has been consistantly improving as far as crowd heat, and I'm sure that if Taker had jobbed or given Lesnar some offense, he'd be even more over. He's going to beat Taker again, then Edge, then Benoit, all the while slow-burning a feud with Angle. Use forshadowing.

 

2. Angle could be a great face. You see it's all a matter of HOW he is turned. Ideally, he simply utilizes the badass section of his persona while phasing out the more heelish elements. The fans will respond to a badass Angle not a patriotic one.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Kudos to the guy who critisized this post for digging a match that he hadn't even seen. I didn't think anyone was that stupid.

 

Oh yeah, and Kurt really EXCELS at matwork - that's why he got gassed after five minutes trading it with Benoit. That's why he's never been able to do it with anyone else.

 

Angle is #3 in the WWE, maybe a little higher if you want to argue against Guererro, but no higher than #2. Anyone who claims he's one of the top ten in the world hasn't seen enough wrestling. No chance.

 

And considering that Brock gets face heat more frequently than not, and seeing as Angle is in no possition to turn face, I doubt we'll be seeing that fued. Also considering that Brock is a mediocre wrestler, I don't see how the match can be very good, under any scale.

[Guest Brian]

Once again, is Brock really that terrible for business? Has he been driving people away that much? Have ratings on SmackDown fallen incredibly?

[Guest Pop Culture God]

Chosyu: You could make a case for Angle as one of the Top-10 OVERALL in the world. Remember, most of the Japanese guys have one style(Flying, Power, Technical etc.) they excel at and a smittering of everything else. Of course there are exceptions but this is generally true. Angle is great doing matwork, brawling, power, and speed stuff. And if you think he isn't a great mat-wrestler YOU haven't watched enough wrestling.

[Guest Anglesault]

Once again, is Brock really that terrible for business? Has he been driving people away that much? Have ratings on SmackDown fallen incredibly?

You'd have to check the quarter hours. I think that he has absolutely nothing to do with the good ratings, and I think there is a reason he hasn't wrestled since Unforgiven. I think if they gave the belt to someone the fans wanted to see, Ratings would go up higher.

 

Brock has been consistantly improving as far as crowd heat, and I'm sure that if Taker had jobbed or given Lesnar some offense, he'd be even more over. He's going to beat Taker again, then Edge, then Benoit, all the while slow-burning a feud with Angle. Use forshadowing.

 

I don't believe in the "give the guy a belt, and wait for him to improve" theory, so this supposed improvement doesn't register with me. And I still do0n't like the idea of sacrificing the company for Lesnar.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Oh Lord,

 

He's worked in one promotion with one style. He's good at that style, but that's the only thing he's good at. "Speed, brawling, power" are all facets of the WWE style, and he's good at it, but it's a poor style overall, and "growing up" in the WWF, he's developed many bad habbits which he seems to think make his matches better. For instance, he often skips to the false finish sequence of the match because the crowd pops for it, but he, in turn, neglects the building portion of the match. For example, his matches with Edge often had hot finishing portions with great heat, but the opening portions of the match were horribly dull. Other faults are his nack for brawling when it's not needed just to kill time, and the neglecting of long-term selling in exchance for cool spots. Again, these are all things that make up the WWE style and are part of what keep Kurt from being a trully great worker, but they're no excuse for all the faults he currently has.

 

And I suppose I've been watching a different last three years of WWF TV than you? He's only taken it to the mat against Benoit, all in short bursts that only lasted about five minutes, tops, and, in one case, he was so winded he began stalling like Zybyzco and refused to cooperate. So my question to you is, do you think about what you type, or do you just throw stuff out there and see what sticks? If the above criteria classifies him as "good mat worker" than you obviously haven't watched any wrestling.

 

There are a plenty of workers out there better than angle who can do shoot style, US pro style, lucha, or brawling, and they're consistantly good at it, too. Those would be the wrestlers that keep Kurt from being anywhere near the top ten.

 

If you want to start tossing around terms like "top ten in the world", you should have watched wrestling from all over the world. You obviously haven't seen enough to make that statement, so you should stick to "best in the WWE." It's simple logic.

[Guest Brian]

"For instance, he often skips to the false finish sequence of the match because the crowd pops for it, but he, in turn, neglects the building portion of the match."

 

Well, I thought I was the only one who noticed that.

 

"For example, his matches with Edge often had hot finishing portions with great heat, but the opening portions of the match were laughably bad."

 

And alot of people creamed over these matches because they got really dramatic at the end.

 

"Other faults are his nack for brawling when it's not needed to kill time,"

 

Benoit matches are an easy example.

 

"and the neglecting of long-term selling in exchance for cool spots."

 

A big fault of the style.

 

I'm in total agreement here. Good job Ricky.

[Guest TheyCallMeMark]

Sault, as far as the guys I would put above Angle go I have Jericho, Rey, Eddy, Benoit and Regal. That might just be my preference, though.

[Guest Brian]

Definately Benoit and Eddie, Regal when he gets the chance and time, Rey right now is like neck and neck with him, Jericho when he wants to be can be up there, Knoble is up in that top tier but not quite there IMO, Funaki at one point had the ability to get up there but it has yet to be seen, and I think Rock can be as good in the style.

[Guest deadbeater]

Horribly dull, Ricky?? Isn't King's Road booking a little like the Edge-Angle match: slow start, warm middle, hot hot finish?

 

Angle didn't have to learn the moonsault or the off the top rope Olympic slam. But he did. He didn't have to learn how to whack people with chairs, or how to mess up royally (Brock doesn't bother to use chairs). But Angle does. Ricky, you want werstling, you got wrestling yet you still piss. Maybe Eric Bischoff is right, wrestling holds are boring. You seem to agree. Pss.

[Guest Brian]

I think by horribly dull he meant that the middle portion of a lot of those matches was used to set up the finish, and the build was all but forgotten and sacrificed for a bunch of nearfalls and hot reversal sequences.