Guest BaldFish Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 Credit: Wrestling Observer You know, I still don't know how they managed to take ECW and bury it so badly. I can understand Vince burying WCW, but... guh. It still blows my mind, even a year and a few months later.
Guest Danny Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 I loved WCW especially in the nWo days. Didn't watch too much ecw but ecw was pretty cool. I can't wcw and ecw are no longer.
Guest Kahran Ramsus Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 ECW was nothing more bush league promotion. The only time it was any good was in 1995 when Benoit & Company were there. Burying WCW is the far more grevious offense, as they could have made a lot of money off the Invasion if WCW was actually a threat and not buried.
Guest BaldFish Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 Granted that ECW was bush league. But it had a fanatical built-in fanbase, and it had been mentioned on WWF/E TV prior, and it was sort of a shadow lurking in the corner. It had that sexy "air of mystery" thing going for it for the marks. It also had a much edgier attitude. WCW was just another promotion, but ECW had that major difference--everyone involved cared about the product.
Guest Kagato Otaku Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 I remember this Alvarez article. This is back in the day when he christenened the "Dudley Dog" the "Dudley Dong." Though getting nailed by a Dudley Dong probably wouldn't be a too pleasant experience either.
Guest cynicalprofit Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 Vince wishes he could do ECW to the WWF. A hardcore loyal fanbase, which he has to some extent, but every ECW fan was a mutant, hell yeah, I was. And ECW was so good that Vince stole ideas from them, adjusted them for his 12-35 demographic, and made millions. Everyone in the ECW locker room always seemed to bust ass because thats what ECW was trying to be about, guys who care about wrestling. Sure alot of it wasn't wrestling but those guys put more effort into what they did then 90% of WCW and about 60% of the WWF, at that time. Vince no longer has guys to steal from, mainly because he doesnt speak good japanese, but thats my opinion, so he's fucked.
Guest BA_Baracus Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 Yeah...ECW was "bush league". Coming up with the ideas behind "WWF Attitude" and first creating and pushing such stars as Steve Austin, Mick Foley and Rob Van Dam...that's nothing. They didn't have enough pyros or good enough lighting...they sucked. Their fans were just a bunch of deluded fools.
Guest Jobber of the Week Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 It takes all kinds. Unfortunately, ECW also had a whole bunch of guys that probably shouldn't have been in the business and prided more on guys with a high threshold for pain than actual skill. Austin was considered a hot prospect for the future in WCW prior to his ECW bit, by the way. And while Heyman had a small but rabid fanbase, it wasn't enough to keep his checks from bouncing, which is the all-important element.
Guest KingOfOldSchool Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 ECW just had that charm, which WWF and WCW hadn't had in years. Say what you will about ECW and Heyman, criticisms which are admittedly well deserved, but plenty of guys who walked through the promotion laid it all on the line just as much as the guys in the big leagues. A lot of them weren't perfect, but they more or less represented the every man, which allowed them to connect with the mutants on another level. Oh, if only it weren't for the constant jumps, Raw is Buff and Vince's ego... the Invasion might've ended up being worth something, instead of the beginning of the downward spiral.
Guest Kahran Ramsus Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 It takes all kinds. Unfortunately, ECW also had a whole bunch of guys that probably shouldn't have been in the business and prided more on guys with a high threshold for pain than actual skill. Austin was considered a hot prospect for the future in WCW prior to his ECW bit, by the way. And while Heyman had a small but rabid fanbase, it wasn't enough to keep his checks from bouncing, which is the all-important element. Glad there is someone else here with some common sense. Sure they were loyal. I know some extremely loyal Montreal Expos fans too. That doesn't mean that they are either: a) A quality franchise b) A financial success ECW certainly wasn't b. ECW's buyrates sucked and their ratings sucked. As for the quality, that is a matter of opinion. WWE has had more ****+ matches this year than ECW had in its entire history, and it was a bad year. Any promotion in which Taz is considered one of its greatest champions of all time has some serious problems.
Guest Ravenbomb Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 Okay, about Raw is Buff... what exactly did Buff do to ruin the inVasion? I probably missed it or something but ppls keep saying he ruined it, I'd like to know how. HOOOOOOOOOOOW!?!!!
Guest Brian Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 Heyman stole his ideas from Japan. Buff had one of the worst RAW main events in history, took himself off of house shows for fake injuries, got into a fight (and beat up) by Helms, and showed up late for training at Stamford. They didn't create Austin. Austin created Austin to say the least. This guy is way underrated as a wrestling mind, especially a marketing mind. Plus, Flair was grooming Austin in WCW before the injury. The WWE would have taken him earlier, but the injury. They blew it with RVD, plain and simple.
Guest The_Minister Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 On the matter of any federation with Taz, it was a great champion, a great wrestler and an all around mean looking man. Then he was injured and became the Tazz we know now. Now I understand, ECW was little more then an Indy Federation that made it slightly better then the rest but really that is what kept its talent hot. And while alot of people like to knock ECW around because it wasn't as good as WCW and WWF/E there is something to be remembered.. IT WASN'T LIKE THEM! It was a federation of smaller, faster, wrestlers and lunatics in some cases. Look at some of these wrestling greats ECW helped out. The Dudley Boys (The Most Dominate Tag Team in Television History) Eddy Benoit Jericho Dean-O-Machino Perry Saturn Mic Foley (Foley is God) Steve Austin (WCW saw enough talent in him to sit around in the midcard) RVD Rey Rey (Part of the Smackdown 6) Jerry Lynn (No success in WWF/E but doing well in TNA) All these guys were the undesirables that ECW made into desirables. ECW was as good to the fans was it was to the wrestlers careers. WCW and WWF/E has a habit of ruining peoples careers. Extreme Championship Wrestler was a wrestling religion. If you didn't get it, then you never will. Thats about it. As for how they ruined the invasion with both ECW and WCW? WWF/E Rules over all federations. To prove it let them JOB!
Guest Brian Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 Eddy, Benoit, and Dean only stayed there as layover so they could get picked up on by the WWF. Rey and Juvi I'll accept. It's very generous to give ECW any credit in Austin since the WWF was waiting to get him at the time, and they were either delayed by injury or obligation to not take him.
Guest DawnBTVS Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 ECW also helped out Raven and Tommy Dreamer a mega ton...Raven more so then Dreamer tho.
Guest Brian Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 But Dreamer was forced into wrestling a certain way and when he got to work in the indies, he just exploded and here was this new Tommy, this Puerto Rican, innovative brawler who did na amazing job playing to the crowd and working chain spots into his matches and building up everything. He was just this fucking amazing worker considering how limited he was. Anyways, Raven was the only guy who truly benefiteed from his ECW run and vice versa.
Guest Mad Dog Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 Raven wouldn't be anywhere today without his WCW tenure. Honestly a lot of the guys you mention as ECW greats were there for maybe a year if that. Austin was there what like 3 months. Foley, Austin, Benoit, Malenko and especially Rey Rey were made by WCW.
Guest deadbeater Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 Austin developed the Stone Cold character in those three months. Without ECW, America would not have seen the likes of Eddy G, Deano Machino, Lionheart and the Wolverine. without ECW, Mick Foley might be treated as a Godwinn instead of the transcendental guy he is. Without him, Austin and The Rock would have to play off of HHH only. See that working now? The fans at Lost Battalion Hall in Queens, NY when ECW was there was as loud as any other venue in the world. To this day, people still chant 'ECW!! ECW!!', much like authors still write of Avalon and Camelot. ECW was, for many wrestling fans, the modern-day Camelot.
Guest Mad Dog Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 Hate to break it to you but Benoit had been in WCW before he was in ECW. Most of these guys would've found their way into WCW considering how closely they worked with New Japan in the 90s. Last I remember I thought Austin's ECW character was a Hogan parody and that Foley played basically the same Cactus Jack he played in WCW.
Guest Nevermortal Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 But Dreamer was forced into wrestling a certain way and when he got to work in the indies, he just exploded and here was this new Tommy, this Puerto Rican, innovative brawler who did na amazing job playing to the crowd and working chain spots into his matches and building up everything. He was just this fucking amazing worker considering how limited he was. Anyways, Raven was the only guy who truly benefiteed from his ECW run and vice versa. Dreamer's a Puerto Rican? Isn't his real name Laughlin?
Guest The Electrifyer Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 To this day, people still chant 'ECW!! ECW!!', much like authors still write of Avalon and Camelot. ECW was, for many wrestling fans, the modern-day Camelot. While that is true, I just can't help but to think that most of the people you hear chanting ECW probably have never seen an ECW show in there lives. They just try and pretend to be knowledgable about ECW. If there were that many fans chanting ECW that actually watched ECW, they probably wouldn't have gone under.
Guest DJ Jeff Posted November 2, 2002 Report Posted November 2, 2002 Well, the WWE did acquire alot of ECW talent, and in turn, screwed them. That's Vince for you. RVD is about the only former ECW superstar that had any type of success in the WWE. Tazz went from being a former ECW Champion, to being a commentator on Smackdown. Rhyno, well, he'll get his push hopefully when he returns, but prior to him getting injured, he didn't get any push of any kind, just a reign as Hardcore Champion. Oh, and I can't forget about the Dudley Boyz. They had good success in the WWE, winning the Tag Team titles on numerous occasions. I would include Foley, Austin, and the others in this, but since they weren't in ECW that long, I won't. I'm only referring to the guys that were in ECW for the majority of the time.
Guest BaldFish Posted November 3, 2002 Report Posted November 3, 2002 Right, but what I'm getting at is this: ECW MADE those guys. Granted that WWE pissed away guys like Tazz, Raven, and Dreamer, but they were all TREMENDOUSLY over in ECW. I blame WWE for the failure of the ECW guys in WWE, not ECW.
Guest Brian Posted November 3, 2002 Report Posted November 3, 2002 Why, because Tazz couldn't go around throwing guys two feet taller than his short ass? "Austin developed the Stone Cold character in those three months." The Austin 3:16 character wasn't developed there, the Austin there was one full of spite. The later one was leagues in character development ahead of this. "Without ECW, America would not have seen the likes of Eddy G, Deano Machino, Lionheart and the Wolverine." Dean and Joe Malenko had tagged a number of times in WCW, and Benoit had worked there too. Eddy had already made a big name stateside, south. All those guys basically used ECW to jump, maybe with the exception being Jericho. You're better off bringing up guys like Mysterio and Guerrera who went to ECW, made a name for themselves, and were taken by WCW when they got the division started. "Without ECW, Mick Foley might be treated as a Godwinn instead of the transcendental guy he is. Without him, Austin and The Rock would have to play off of HHH only. See that working now?" Foley had developed vhis rep long before he came to ECW and ECW was still in it's infantile stages when he got there. "The fans at Lost Battalion Hall in Queens, NY when ECW was there was as loud as any other venue in the world." And they also didn't know good wrestling from a hole in the wall. "To this day, people still chant 'ECW!! ECW!!', much like authors still write of Avalon and Camelot. ECW was, for many wrestling fans, the modern-day Camelot." That's not out of respect. Most fans who chant it were never touched by ECW.
Guest CoreyLazarus416 Posted November 3, 2002 Report Posted November 3, 2002 I consider ECW to be the greatest company ever for this one reason: I was ALWAYS entertained by EVERY match. It's extremely subjective, and I appreciate a great flat-out WRESTLING match as much as the next bitter smark, but ECW was just flat-out great at entertaining ME. I can understand why people don't like it, but I feel that most people just bash it because it happened to popularize a style of wrestling that many of you aren't fans of ( a spot-oriented style with hardcore brawling). I could really go into an essay-long explanation about why ECW matches actually DID have psychology, but that's another story altogether. Basically, I have no reason for really liking ECW, and, to me, that's what makes me an ECW Mark: I can't point out a solid explanation for liking it, but I just do.
Guest Jobber of the Week Posted November 3, 2002 Report Posted November 3, 2002 Okay, about Raw is Buff... what exactly did Buff do to ruin the inVasion? I probably missed it or something but ppls keep saying he ruined it, I'd like to know how. HOOOOOOOOOOOW!?!!! Only one real WCW "show" ever took place, in the final quarter-hour of a Raw. They did a Booker vs Bagwell show. All the logos and whatnot had changed, they even emulated the "paint the first five rows in blue and dark everything else" effect from Nitro. Scott Keith called it "WCW in BizarroLand." It was total WCW except for the ring and the stage. Too bad the crowd went ugly and booed both these guys. Booking should have thought better than to put a WCW match as the main event for a WWF crowd. By the time Austin and Angle interfered and heel'd things up and threw out both guys, the crowd popped. Desperately, they introduced ECW before even trying to get the new WCW over in Atlanta (which really could have been a make it or break it), and ECW brought in Stephanie, who in turn brought her ego.
Guest Spaceman Spiff Posted November 3, 2002 Report Posted November 3, 2002 Buff had one of the worst RAW main events in history, took himself off of house shows for fake injuries, got into a fight (and beat up) by Helms No shit? Buff got his ass kicked by Helms? Damn, my markdom for Helms raises even further.
Guest thebigjig Posted November 3, 2002 Report Posted November 3, 2002 They didn't have enough pyros or good enough lighting...they sucked. Their fans were just a bunch of deluded fools. You forgot to mention wrestling in there, but hey if you call wrestling throwing somebody on a bunch of barbed wire while a bunch of morons prove that they can spell out the initials of the promotion, then hey whatever. And WCW created stars in Steve Austin and Mick Foley before ECW or WWF
Guest Anglesault Posted November 3, 2002 Report Posted November 3, 2002 Why, because Tazz couldn't go around throwing guys two feet taller than his short ass? Brian's right. Can you blame ANYONE for not wanting to be thrown around by Oompa Loompa?
Guest Anglesault Posted November 3, 2002 Report Posted November 3, 2002 Another thing. Peolle talk about the ECW invasion being ruined. I'm sorry, but the Lolipop Guild does not look like it can take on the Undertaker.
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