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Best matches 2000-2005

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Ok, here's what I want to do. Hopefully enough people read this blog so that we can get some sort of reasonable discussion. Lets discuss the best matches from 2000-2005, or early "Match of the decade candidates". Post as many matches as you want, but only if you really think they're truly great enough to be one of the best of the decade. You don't have to provide in-depth analysis, unless you're questioned. And even then, it doesn't have to be long-winded or anything. I'll fire off a few matches that I think are candidates and I will provide analysis if called upon (because then I can rewatch the match with that in mind).

 

Ok.

 

1. Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk (12/04/04) I admit, I thought this was a ***** match the first time I saw it. The story was just utterly fantastic, as they played off of past matches better than their 2nd match, and the blood really played in perfectly with the ending while leaving the door open for more matches between the two. I've been seeing criticism of this match (although nothing credible, because all I saw was a ***1/2 rating, with no analysis given, by a guy who's a crackpot). I don't know if it's a legit *****, as I need to watch it again. And the thing about that, is that I don't have access to it so I can't rewatch it at the moment. I've no doubt it was up in MOTDC territory though.

 

2. Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk (10/16/04) My god, I'm coming across like an ROHbot. Yikes. But this match was seriously fantastic. Probably the best 60 minutes I've seen. Once again, the basis of the match was them playing off the previous draw, and they did it in a way that left no doubt as to what they really meant by it. What makes it even more impressive, is that I believe this match was put together kind of at the last moment, when Steve Corino (who was originally facing Joe) had to pull out of the card.

 

3. Kenta Kobashi vs. Yoshihiro Takayama (04/25/04) This is what happens when Kobashi is involved in a big time match, and he doesn't go crazy with the no-selling/fighting spirit nonsense. That pretty much explains why it's here.

 

4. Hiroyoshi Tenzan vs. Jun Akiyama (8/17/03) I don't remember this match too well, other than the fact that I thought it was the best match I had seen from the period 1999-2003. I haven't seen any talk of this match, so I'm kind of curious as to what others think about it. Hopefully we can get some discussion on this match specifically, as it would give me a reason to watch it again.

 

Essentially that's pretty much it. Those are the only ****1/2 matches I've seen since 2000. Feel free to pick apart any of the matches you see, as long as you're bringing the points.

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I'm way behind on my Puro viewing and have only made it to 2003 ROH at this point (almost in 2004 when things picked up), but I'd probably give the nod to the following two matches.

 

Eddy v JBL - Judgment Day '04

Rock v Jericho - No Mercy '01

 

Both in the ****1/4-****1/2 range for me. I'll copy/paste what I've wrote about each one in the past.

 

Re: Eddy/JBL

 

This match gets me hooked in right from the get-go. JBL, in front of a largely Hispanic crowd, advises them to save a spot on the boat so Eddy Guerrero can be shipped back to that third world country called Mexico. The announcers do a great job of explaining the backstory in quick concise fashion. JBL is basically a racist motherfucker who's way too big for his britches that has insulted Eddy's heritage and culture, and even caused his mom to have a mild heart attack. So, JBL's pre-match promo nicely sets the stage for what by all rights should be remembered as a classic match. Crowd is deafening throughout, although admittedly, I'm not sure how much of that is real heat and how much of it is post-production sweetening. Eddy takes it to Bradshaw very aggressively at the opening bell, which does a nice job in establishing roles and playing off the storyline already established. You might expect Eddy to come in and get dominated early on because of the size difference, only to come back at the end, but that would have been the wrong booking here. He reacts like just about anyone would who caused his mom a heart attack, short of using an illegal weapon, by beating the hell out of him, throwing him around the ring and at ringside like a ragdoll and beating him at his own game -- brawling. I love this for two reasons:

 

(1) Eddy is a new champ that is still being established as a top guy. Going toe-to-toe with someone so much bigger than him works nicely in that direction.

(2) Bradshaw is *not* a great wrestler. If he has a strength at all, it's his brawling ability, and Eddy is beating him at his own game.

 

If the goal was to make both look strong up until this point, it was accomplished in spades. Bradshaw does stooge and beg off from Eddy, but that's because he realized he underestimated him and he's surprised at his determination. I love the fact that the only way Bradshaw could get an opening was the way it should have happened -- it wasn't because Eddy made a mistake or missed a move, it was because JBL was thinking on his feet and created his own opening, performing a fallaway slam, one of his trademark moves, on the floor, which Eddy sold like death. It was a nice bump and a great transitional spot. Bradshaw would basically have to do three things to beat Eddy -- deplete his energy, slow the pace down and neutralize his ability to fly. In that sense, the side headlock is the perfect move to work in that direction. It sounds simple, but it works. This isn't a traditional side headlock spot where it's used as a resthold -- the positioning of Bradshaw's weight on Guerrero's neck and shoulders while Tazz explains the psychology on the move perfectly on commentary is what makes it work. It accomplishes what it set out to do quite nicely, and now Bradshaw is in control.

 

The crowd never stops chanting for Eddy, and Bradshaw never gives them a reason to no longer care. He stays on offense convincingly, without stalling, and is quick to play to the crowd as often as he can. I've seen too many matches that would be great if the wrestlers actually treated the audience like a third worker, and that's what they did here. Referee Brian Hebner, however, was the fourth worker of the match, taking a nice bump off of Eddy that was set up in interesting fashion. Just as Eddy was starting to make his comeback, he *realistically* and inadvertently bumped into Hebner and knocked him down. It was so much more creative than typical WWE ref bumps, and it was the right thing to do here, because it added drama to the match. We go outside the ring and Eddy makes the mistake of signaling that he's about to throw Bradshaw through the announce table. Yeah, he does it, and even silences the announcers for a few minutes, but JBL finds a way to turn the tide quite easily -- he pelts Guerrero with the Mother Of All Chairshots and to say Eddy juices is an understatement. It easily replaces Jericho at SMW's Night of Legends as the worst (read: best) bladejob I've ever seen. You can actually see the blood squirting out of his forehead Kill Bill-style. It's pretty sick, but adds another layer of drama to the match.

 

JBL gets Eddy back in the ring, the mat of which is now almost covered in red, and stiffs the hell out of him with perhaps the best lariat I've ever seen in an American ring. Bradshaw tries to revive the ref, but it doesn't work, and he starts pounding on his back out of frustration. Referee Charles Robinson comes down and Eddy kicks out at the last millisecond, which the audience totally bought as the finish, because of the combination of Eddy's bladejob and JBL's established finisher. They could not have made this more effective -- the match needed at least one major false finish (a few more would follow), and something extra needed to be done besides the Clothesline From Hell to make the audience think it could actually result in a title change. That's was the purpose of the bladejob, and at least for the context of this match, anyone who saw JBL as a beer-drinking APA member had that vision of him erased for the next few minutes. He follows up with a ferocious powerbomb and gets another nearfall. He goes for yet another lariat, but Eddy ducks and he ends up knocking down the second referee.

 

The first referee is now starting to revive, and even his selling rocks! Eddy Hulks up, but not really in the traditional sense, and not without writing off the damage done to him before that. How could he? It's not a Shawn Michaels kip up where he forgets about all the damage done to him in advance; it's a logical comeback at a logical point in time. The timing of everything, in fact, is probably what makes this match work above all else. Eddy misses his first frogsplash attempt, which would be important later, and it's a FLAWLESS transition to the finish, which sees JBL going outside to grab the championship belt and the chair. The announcers speculate why he has both, pointing out that if he gets himself DQ'd, he can't win the title, but his gameplan quickly becomes evident. He throws a chair to the side to distract the ref and intends to hit Eddy with the belt, but Eddy kicks him in the balls! To a huge pop! Markout city! He then picks up the belt JBL brought in the ring and hits him with it, drawing a DQ, which the audience doesn't like at all. The key to having the audience accept that decision is the post-match brawl, which I actually think should be considered when talking about this match, because it's loaded with payback spots. Eddy may be bleeding, but he sure as Hell isn't going to go down alone, and he gets in a great pair of chairshots on his own on JBL, and finally gets that frogsplash that he missed earlier. The referees are trying to restrain him, and he starts pushing them away, and it eventually takes the 81st Airborne to separate him from JBL.

 

The DQ totally worked. First, it created a nice parity and really cool contradiction for the rematch -- Eddy had beat JBL at his own game (brawling) while JBL had beaten Eddy at his own game (tactical cheating). They each had an unexpected advantage over the other. Second, it kept the door open for a rematch, and after that, a promoter would be a fool not to book one. The entire match built to a DQ finish; I actually think a clean finish here would have *hurt* the match more than it helped it, because it would have totally opposed the build before it. As a huge fan of old territory footage, this match was a must, and I'm saddened I didn't see it live when it happened, because I would have supported Smackdown with everything I had had I known the top feud was this good. The booking leading into the match was straight out of something you'd see in an old Jerry Lawler match in Memphis or out of Ted DiBiase in Mid South, kind of the next progressive step in the evolution of Southern brawls. It's modernized more than it is a throwback, but it still takes a template that was established in some of Lawler's bloodbaths in the 1970s and 1980s and makes it work in 2004. Going that route was pure genius, and it's something I never even would have considered. To explain the parallels, Lawler's matches were usually constructed around the idea of building to three things:

 

(1) Lawler's fiery comebacks

(2) A finish that doesn't leave the audience deflated, but will ensure that they're left wanting more

(3) Blood

 

In terms of #1, Lawler pulling the straps down equals Eddy shaking his fists and doing his dance to signify that it's time to make his comeback. The parallel with #2 is very apparent, because Memphis had a tendency to run DQ finishes to set up the big match the following week or month, which is exactly what this was. And boy, did this match deliver on #3.

 

This is what WWE should be. This is what American wrestling should be. I can't say enough for how much I loved this match.

 

****1/2 (yes, you read that right)

 

Re: Rock/Jericho

 

Great match - easily Jericho's best and Rock is better here than he was against Austin, as he's playing the Jumbo to Jericho's Misawa, and he's not doing a lousy bladejob like he did at Wrestlemania. Ending drags it down a little, as does the height difference at times, as Rock's catapult looks awkward because he's a good 8 inches taller than Jericho and they botch a legwhip for the same reasons. Besides that, this is a beautiful match with Jericho pulling out lots of big moves to show how important this match is to him -- the standing huracanrana is a beautiful highspot and Rock takes it well, and he also uses a senton and has some cool counters to some of Rock's bigger moves. Crowd is played like a violin the whole way, rooting for Rock big at the beginning and siding with Jericho by the end because they know they're seeing something historic (or at least it would have been had they not botched Jericho's big run so horribly). Jericho's facial expressions have never been better.

 

Lots more matches have been discussed at my board. You're welcome to post there sometime if you like. Not as much traffic as here or DVDVR, but the discussion quality is really strong.

 

http://www.nmblues.com/

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I'm going to have to track those matches down again, as I only remember my general thoughts about each, and I can't really discuss them without having specific pointers in mind.

 

I better start taking notes on matches that I download, as I don't ever keep them around for later viewing.

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I better start taking notes on matches that I download, as I don't ever keep them around for later viewing.

You should. I do, and I've got gigs of stuff on here.

 

Analysis will come later, but these are my Top Ten of the matches from 2000-2005, that I remember off-hand, that I’d rate at ****1/2 or higher

 

Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk - ROH Joe vs. Punk II, October 16th 2004

Hiroyoshi Tenzan vs. Satoshi Kojima - New Japan, February 20th 2005

Kenta Kobashi vs. Yuji Nagata - NOAH, September 12th 2003

Keiji Muto vs. Hiroshi Hase - New Japan, June 6th 2001

Kenta Kobashi vs. Kensuke Sasaki - NOAH, July 18th 2005

Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama - NOAH, December 23rd 2000

Yuji Nagata vs. Masahiro Chono - New Japan, October 26th 2002

Chikayo Nagashima vs. Manami Toyota - AJW, October 20th 2002

Kurt Angle vs. The Rock - WWF No Mercy 2000

Kurt Angle vs. Edge - WWE Judgment Day 2002

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I better start taking notes on matches that I download, as I don't ever keep them around for later viewing.

You should. I do, and I've got gigs of stuff on here.

 

Analysis will come later, but these are my Top Ten of the matches from 2000-2005, that I remember off-hand, that I’d rate at ****1/2 or higher

 

Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk - ROH Joe vs. Punk II, October 16th 2004

Hiroyoshi Tenzan vs. Satoshi Kojima - New Japan, February 20th 2005

Kenta Kobashi vs. Yuji Nagata - NOAH, September 12th 2003

Keiji Muto vs. Hiroshi Hase - New Japan, June 6th 2001

Kenta Kobashi vs. Kensuke Sasaki - NOAH, July 18th 2005

Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama - NOAH, December 23rd 2000

Yuji Nagata vs. Masahiro Chono - New Japan, October 26th 2002

Chikayo Nagashima vs. Manami Toyota - AJW, October 20th 2002

Kurt Angle vs. The Rock - WWF No Mercy 2000

Kurt Angle vs. Edge - WWE Judgment Day 2002

 

I don't suppose you have those WWE matches on your HD? (The ones you mentioned as well as the one's Loss mentioned)

 

Luckily I have the rest of those, bar the AJW match. Tenzan-Kojima I just watched recently. I thought there were some selling problems (mainly Kojima being stupid) that dragged it down a bit, along with the totally flat and poorly executed ending. Other than that it was just a fantastic match. Maybe a MOTYC for this year.

 

Kobashi vs. Sasaki analysis will come when I get to the 7/18/05 Dome Show. I'm watching some NOAH stuff in order at the moment, and I'm at the 4/24/05 Budokan show.

 

I'm going to rewatch the other stuff.

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I better start taking notes on matches that I download, as I don't ever keep them around for later viewing.

You should. I do, and I've got gigs of stuff on here.

 

Analysis will come later, but these are my Top Ten of the matches from 2000-2005, that I remember off-hand, that I’d rate at ****1/2 or higher

 

Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk - ROH Joe vs. Punk II, October 16th 2004

Hiroyoshi Tenzan vs. Satoshi Kojima - New Japan, February 20th 2005

Kenta Kobashi vs. Yuji Nagata - NOAH, September 12th 2003

Keiji Muto vs. Hiroshi Hase - New Japan, June 6th 2001

Kenta Kobashi vs. Kensuke Sasaki - NOAH, July 18th 2005

Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama - NOAH, December 23rd 2000

Yuji Nagata vs. Masahiro Chono - New Japan, October 26th 2002

Chikayo Nagashima vs. Manami Toyota - AJW, October 20th 2002

Kurt Angle vs. The Rock - WWF No Mercy 2000

Kurt Angle vs. Edge - WWE Judgment Day 2002

 

I don't suppose you have those WWE matches on your HD? (The ones you mentioned as well as the one's Loss mentioned)

 

Luckily I have the rest of those, bar the AJW match. Tenzan-Kojima I just watched recently. I thought there were some selling problems (mainly Kojima being stupid) that dragged it down a bit, along with the totally flat and poorly executed ending. Other than that it was just a fantastic match.

 

Kobashi vs. Sasaki analysis will come when I get to the 7/18/05 Dome Show. I'm watching some NOAH stuff in order at the moment, and I'm at the 4/24/05 Budokan show.

 

I'm going to rewatch the other stuff.

I don't suppose you have those WWE matches on your HD? (The ones you mentioned as well as the one's Loss mentioned)

 

I don't, but I can always look around for them.

 

Tenzan-Kojima I just watched recently. I thought there were some selling problems (mainly Kojima being stupid) that dragged it down a bit, along with the totally flat and poorly executed ending. Other than that it was just a fantastic match.

 

I haven't watched it since watching it live so I can't tell what I'd think of it now, but in the there and then it was all kinds of awesome.

 

Kobashi vs. Sasaki analysis will come when I get to the 7/18/05 Dome Show. I'm watching some NOAH stuff in order at the moment, and I'm at the 4/24/05 Budokan show.

 

In case you set some stuff on VHS, you have to get Destiny on DVD in some fashion, and get the live version. It comes as close as you can get to watching it live, and it really makes the chopfest come across in almost all its glory.

 

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Kobashi vs. Akiyama (12/23/00)

 

The Good

 

- Akiyama plays his role as an asshole well, Kobashi plays the role of his angered opponent well. Akiyama doesn't give clean breaks, so Kobashi brutalizes him when he gets Jun in the corner.

 

- The strikes and execution was stiff and believable. No surprise here and nothing out of the oridnary for these guys.

 

- They fought for the moves really well, particular the dangerous moves. The fight for the ring side suplex, the fight/tease of the ramp to floor exploder was particular good. Jun did a good job trying to get out of the headlocks/chinlocks too, considering this next point...

 

- Kobashi's neck attack was focused and well executed, leaving no doubt as to what he was attempting. Made his low-end offense seem important.

 

- Smart counters to moves that had already been used earlier in the match. Kobashi countering Jun's knee and Jun countering Kobashi's suplex in particular.

 

- Akiyama's long-term selling was great at all points. He was really putting over the damage that he had taken from each Kobashi control segment, as well as the match overall.

 

- Akiyama's arm work was well done and makes sense in the context of lessening the effect of Kobashi's lariat. A great sequence in particular was Jun trying to get the armbar, but Kobashi blocking it, so Jun went to a short-arm scissors instead. Kobashi eventually tried to flash pin Jun while Jun still had the hold, so Jun easily kicked out and then got the full armbar. Smart work.

 

- Both guys were selling their injuries well. Kobashi with his arm, Jun with his neck. Jun's selling was fantastic.

 

- Great transition. Jun goes for one too many armbreakers, so Kobashi counters with a sleeper suplex. It was just a perfect position to use it. Another great transition is mentioned later.

 

- They fought for the ramp half-nelson really well. It seemed like Jun was safe, but Kobashi pulled him off the ropes and quickly hit it. Jun sells it like death.

 

- The concrete floor exploder was a great way for Jun to get back on fairly equal footing with Kobashi, after Jun was being killed for a lot of the match. This also lead to Jun switching his attack to Kobashi's neck, to setup for the front necklock. Great time and reason to switch attacks.

 

- Great stretch run. They fought for the front necklock, with Jun getting it on but Kobashi getting the ropes right at the same time. Wrist clutch exploder was setup nicely. Jun attempts a normal exploder, Kobashi reaches out for the ropes, so Jun simply grabs the hand and hits the wrist-clutch exploder. Jun attempts a super exploder, Kobashi counters with a lariat, leading to a great double-sell sequence which really throws the match into doubt.

 

- Burning hammer finish works. Kobashi can't screw around because if Jun gets the front necklock, it's probably over. Forgoes the moonsault and just goes for the burning hammer, which is setup excellently. Rolling kesagiri to the back of the neck sends Jun stomach first into the corner, and that was the beginning of the end.

 

The Bad

 

- The no-selling/delayed selling of the half-nelson suplex and exploder was just superfluous.

 

- Akiyama's counter to Kobashi's moonsault didn't make sense, as Akiyama was hurting at the time. Would have been better if Kobashi had simply missed the moonsault.

 

You know, I originally had this at ***1/2, and I don't know what the hell I was smoking, because this was Kobashi and Akiyama's best match together. I think I was in my "no-selling is the end of the world" phase when I originally watched it, and I unfairly judged the match after that. This was easily a MOTDC, ****1/2. If not for the couple flaws, this was probably ****3/4.

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I had it at ****3/4, but I feel like it really does deserve *****.

 

It just seemed to be missing something to put it at that level for me. Needed more of an epic feel I think, which would have been achieved had the moonsault and necklock come into play (in the case of the moonsault, being countered better or hit, in the case of the necklock, just used). I think their 7/10/04 match was heading towards ***** level into they totally shitted it all away. Oh well.

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I'm going to watch/do reviews of the matches I disagree with. It probably won't be quick, because I have a TON of stuff I have to watch. Plus, I don't have access to the WWE stuff, and the only WWE match I'm equipped to debate right now is the Rock/Austin WMX7 match. Everyone else feel free to do the same for the matches that you disagree with and either post them here or in your own blog. I figure doing this is a good way to keep out the people who aren't actually interested in discussing intelligently, as opposed to a forum thread.

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I had it at ****3/4, but I feel like it really does deserve *****.

 

It just seemed to be missing something to put it at that level for me. Needed more of an epic feel I think, which would have been achieved had the moonsault and necklock come into play (in the case of the moonsault, being countered better or hit, in the case of the necklock, just used). I think their 7/10/04 match was heading towards ***** level into they totally shitted it all away. Oh well.

I didn't think much of their 7/10/04 bout. I don't know if it was all the hype, not that I paid much attention to it, or what, but I only gave that ****. It was kind of like Kobashi vs. Misawa from '03 for me.

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I had it at ****3/4, but I feel like it really does deserve *****.

 

It just seemed to be missing something to put it at that level for me. Needed more of an epic feel I think, which would have been achieved had the moonsault and necklock come into play (in the case of the moonsault, being countered better or hit, in the case of the necklock, just used). I think their 7/10/04 match was heading towards ***** level into they totally shitted it all away. Oh well.

I didn't think much of their 7/10/04 bout. I don't know if it was all the hype, not that I paid much attention to it, or what, but I only gave that ****. It was kind of like Kobashi vs. Misawa from '03 for me.

 

In the end, I didn't think much of it either, I only have it ***3/4. The no-selling/delayed selling was just timed so, so poorly. It happened so far into the match and happened after both guys had taken so much punishment, that it just totally killed the believability of the match. Then again, I'm not going to be like some people and drop a potentially ****1/2+ match down to ** just because of that. In the end, the majority of the match was great.

 

As an aside, I think it's going to be interesting to break down these WWE matches. I'll say right now that of the modern WWE "classics" I've seen, I've had most around ***-***1/2. The only ones breaking **** were Angle vs. HBK at WM21 and Eddy vs. Brock at NWO 04. Probably because those matches were actually wrestled at a high level, as opposed to using mediocre wrestling to tell a good story. I just can't justify rating matches highly unless they're firing on all cylinders. Bret vs. Owen at WMX is a good example of a great story being told with great wrestling and as such, I'd concider it a legit ****1/2-****3/4. Oh well, that's just my preference I guess.

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What did you give the rest of the matches on my Top Ten list?

 

Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk - ROH Joe vs. Punk II, October 16th 2004 - ****3/4

Hiroyoshi Tenzan vs. Satoshi Kojima - New Japan, February 20th 2005 - ***3/4

Kenta Kobashi vs. Yuji Nagata - NOAH, September 12th 2003 - **3/4

Keiji Muto vs. Hiroshi Hase - New Japan, June 6th 2001 - ***1/4

Kenta Kobashi vs. Kensuke Sasaki - NOAH, July 18th 2005 Unwatched

Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama - NOAH, December 23rd 2000 - ***1/2 originally, ****1/2 now

Yuji Nagata vs. Masahiro Chono - New Japan, October 26th 2002 - ***1/2

 

Chikayo Nagashima vs. Manami Toyota - AJW, October 20th 2002

Kurt Angle vs. The Rock - WWF No Mercy 2000

Kurt Angle vs. Edge - WWE Judgment Day 2002

 

All of these unwatched.

 

Of those matches, the only one I've seen fairly recently was Kojima-Tenzan and the Kobashi-Akiyama match. Kobashi-Nagata, Muto-Hase and Nagata-Chono I watched at a time when I was being incredibly hard on matches. So I'd expect to view all 3 in a better light when I rewatch them. (and you saw how much of a difference it made for Kobashi-Akiyama)

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What did you give the rest of the matches on my Top Ten list?

 

Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk - ROH Joe vs. Punk II, October 16th 2004 - ****3/4

Hiroyoshi Tenzan vs. Satoshi Kojima - New Japan, February 20th 2005 - ***3/4

Kenta Kobashi vs. Yuji Nagata - NOAH, September 12th 2003 - **3/4

Keiji Muto vs. Hiroshi Hase - New Japan, June 6th 2001 - ***1/4

Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama - NOAH, December 23rd 2000 - ***1/2 originally, ****1/2 now

Yuji Nagata vs. Masahiro Chono - New Japan, October 26th 2002 - ***1/2

 

Of those matches, the only one I've seen fairly recently was Kojima-Tenzan and the Kobashi-Akiyama match. Kobashi-Nagata, Muto-Hase and Nagata-Chono I watched at a time when I was being incredibly hard on matches. So I'd expect to view all 3 in a better light when I rewatch them. (and you saw how much of a difference it made for Kobashi-Akiyama)

**3/4 seems way off base for Kobashi vs. Nagata. Muto vs. Hase is a match that Meltzer didn't rate, because he didn't think it would be fair or something, given the style it was wrestled in. I loved that match.

 

I gave those matches:

 

Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk - ROH Joe vs. Punk II, October 16th 2004 - *****

Hiroyoshi Tenzan vs. Satoshi Kojima - New Japan, February 20th 2005 - *****

Kenta Kobashi vs. Yuji Nagata - NOAH, September 12th 2003 - ****1/2, but I want to watch it again to be more fair.

Keiji Muto vs. Hiroshi Hase - New Japan, June 6th 2001 - ****1/2

Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama - NOAH, December 23rd 2000 - ****3/4

Yuji Nagata vs. Masahiro Chono - New Japan, October 26th 2002 - *****

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**3/4 seems way off base for Kobashi vs. Nagata. Muto vs. Hase is a match that Meltzer didn't rate, because he didn't think it would be fair or something, given the style it was wrestled in. I loved that match.

 

IIRC, the **3/4 rating was probably out of disgust at only a few things in the match, so I unfairly rated it low with that in mind. A second viewing will probably give me a more accurate picture.

 

Hase-Muto was weird because it was wrestled in such a retro style and caught me so off guard. I didn't mind the style they wrestled, but I just wasn't looking at it the right way I think.

 

In general, I just have really high standards after **** I think. Like, I only have something like 7 matches at *****. It leads to me having A LOT of high quality matches in the upper *** range. Oh well, the discussion is what counts smile.gif

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Just a quick interuption, If you are giving ***** to JVP2 which it richly deserves, what about the other two parts of the triology because in my opinion, The whole thing...is one giant story being told and without WTC...

 

JVP2 doesn't work the same and ASEII actually makes JVP2 a better match just because of where 10/16 was carried over into that match...

 

Not sure if that makes sense but i honestly consider the series one collective ***** match.

 

 

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Just a quick interuption, If you are giving ***** to JVP2 which it richly deserves, what about the other two parts of the triology because in my opinion, The whole thing...is one giant story being told and without WTC...

 

JVP2 doesn't work the same and ASEII actually makes JVP2 a better match just because of where 10/16 was carried over into that match...

 

Not sure if that makes sense but i honestly consider the series one collective ***** match.

I haven't seen Joe vs. Punk I, but I have seen III. I liked III, but it was only ok to me. I didn't think it was as good as II, and certainly not the ***** that some have given it.

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Just a quick interuption, If you are giving ***** to JVP2 which it richly deserves, what about the other two parts of the triology because in my opinion, The whole thing...is one giant story being told and without WTC...

 

JVP2 doesn't work the same and ASEII actually makes JVP2 a better match just because of where 10/16 was carried over into that match...

 

Not sure if that makes sense but i honestly consider the series one collective ***** match.

 

Even though it's not directed at me, I had the first match at ***3/4, second at ****3/4, third at *****. I've only seen the matches once each though, so take those ratings for what it's worth. I do think it was the best trilogy I've ever seen. The Misawa-Kawada series kind of transcends pro wrestling and was a story told over many years and about 18-20 matches, so I don't really count that one smile.gif

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**3/4 seems way off base for Kobashi vs. Nagata. Muto vs. Hase is a match that Meltzer didn't rate, because he didn't think it would be fair or something, given the style it was wrestled in. I loved that match.

 

IIRC, the **3/4 rating was probably out of disgust at only a few things in the match, so I unfairly rated it low with that in mind. A second viewing will probably give me a more accurate picture.

 

Hase-Muto was weird because it was wrestled in such a retro style and caught me so off guard. I didn't mind the style they wrestled, but I just wasn't looking at it the right way I think.

 

In general, I just have really high standards after **** I think. Like, I only have something like 7 matches at *****. It leads to me having A LOT of high quality matches in the upper *** range. Oh well, the discussion is what counts smile.gif

Hase-Muto was weird because it was wrestled in such a retro style and caught me so off guard. I didn't mind the style they wrestled, but I just wasn't looking at it the right way I think.

 

I loved the match and the style, because it was so different and unique to just about anything else being done at that time.

 

I only have something like 7 matches at *****.

 

I have very few matches at ***** myself, and most of those are listed above.

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Just a quick interuption, If you are giving ***** to JVP2 which it richly deserves, what about the other two parts of the triology because in my opinion, The whole thing...is one giant story being told and without WTC...

 

JVP2 doesn't work the same and ASEII actually makes JVP2 a better match just because of where 10/16 was carried over into that match...

 

Not sure if that makes sense but i honestly consider the series one collective ***** match.

I haven't seen Joe vs. Punk I, but I have seen III. I liked III, but it was only ok to me. I didn't think it was as good as II, and certainly not the ***** that some have given it.

 

See that's the thing, Watching WTC makes JVP2 so much better. I'm surprised you haven't gone of your way to see that match considering it's a ****+ match on it's own and it's impact is clearly carried over into the second match.

 

Some argue that JVP2 on its own is ***** and I do agree with that statement because, a brilliant match is always a brilliant match but it's added so much to it when you get the full context of what's going on and WTC gives you a fuller context even if the match is slightly lower on the "scale".

 

 

 

 

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**3/4 seems way off base for Kobashi vs. Nagata. Muto vs. Hase is a match that Meltzer didn't rate, because he didn't think it would be fair or something, given the style it was wrestled in. I loved that match.

 

IIRC, the **3/4 rating was probably out of disgust at only a few things in the match, so I unfairly rated it low with that in mind. A second viewing will probably give me a more accurate picture.

 

Hase-Muto was weird because it was wrestled in such a retro style and caught me so off guard. I didn't mind the style they wrestled, but I just wasn't looking at it the right way I think.

 

In general, I just have really high standards after **** I think. Like, I only have something like 7 matches at *****. It leads to me having A LOT of high quality matches in the upper *** range. Oh well, the discussion is what counts smile.gif

Hase-Muto was weird because it was wrestled in such a retro style and caught me so off guard. I didn't mind the style they wrestled, but I just wasn't looking at it the right way I think.

 

I loved the match and the style, because it was so different and unique to just about anything else being done at that time.

 

I only have something like 7 matches at *****.

 

I have very few matches at ***** myself, and most of those are listed above.

 

I only have 4 ***** matches and that's because Im very limited in my Puro expierence and because of that, I refuse to grade any puro match because im not properly qualified to make any such critique.

 

CM Punk Vs Samoa Joe 10/16/04

Bret Hart Vs Steve Austin Survivor Series 1996

Owen Hart Vs Bret Hart WrestleMania X

James Gibson Vs Samoa Joe Vs Christopher Daniels Vs CM Punk 8/12/05 (Although that's likely to change once i observe it again and break it down)

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I have very few matches at ***** myself, and most of those are listed above.

 

Care to list the others? I'll list mine.

 

Akira Hokuto vs. Shinobu Kandori (4/2/93)

Kenta Kobashi vs. Stan Hansen (7/29/93)

Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada (6/3/94)

Misawa & Kobashi vs. Kawada & Taue (6/9/95)

Misawa & Akiyama vs. Kawada & Taue (12/6/96)

Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi (1/20/97)

Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi (10/21/97)

 

Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk (12/4/04) Not officially added yet, I really need to see it again.

 

Hehe, I guess this is kind of off-topic, but whatever since it's my blog damnit!

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The only NA matches that I have at ***** are Punk vs. Joe II and Steamboat vs. Flair from New Orleans. I might be forgetting one or two, but it's still a small list.

 

It's true and really the 4th one isn't really ***** because I know it had flaws in it and likely will fall down to the **** level but It's one of those cases I'd perfer to be blind to them.

 

I'm one of those people who perfer the final stage of the '89 triology over the 2/3 Falls match. I'm not knocking the 2/3 Falls match but I've always taken a better liking to the last match.

 

 

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I have very few matches at ***** myself, and most of those are listed above.

 

Care to list the others? I'll list mine.

 

Akira Hokuto vs. Shinobu Kandori (4/2/93)

Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada (6/3/94)

Misawa & Kobashi vs. Kawada & Taue (6/9/95)

Misawa & Akiyama vs. Kawada & Taue (12/6/96)

Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi (1/20/97)

Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi (10/21/97)

 

 

Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk - ROH Joe vs. Punk II, October 16th 2004

Hiroyoshi Tenzan vs. Satoshi Kojima - New Japan, February 20th 2005

Yuji Nagata vs. Masahiro Chono - New Japan, October 26th 2002

Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair - NWA Clash VI 1989

 

I think that's about it, but I might be missing one or two.

 

Akira Hokuto vs. Shinobu Kandori (4/2/93) - Not Seen

Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada (6/3/94) - ***3/4

Misawa & Kobashi vs. Kawada & Taue (6/9/95) - ****

Misawa & Akiyama vs. Kawada & Taue (12/6/96) - ***3/4 (I think)

Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi (1/20/97) - ****3/4

Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi (10/21/97) - Not Seen

 

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