Papacita

I vaguely remember his wife actually speaking up on it, convincing Vince to drop it.

GOD YES!!! Granted, Bret had some redeeming qualities, but he was also a fantastic villan and I couldn't wait for Austin to beat his ass. Really, was there anybody that didn't go crazy when Austin attacked Bret in the ambulance? Re Promoter's point, I also liked how in those days Austin acted like a heel despite being face. It used to crack me up when the fans would cheer him or something and he'd tell them to "shut up"! I hated when he started doing the "Hell Yeah" stuff, but I guess it was all for the better.

I would be more inclined to say November/December 95 if Vince didn't seem so hesitant to go in that direction. Late 95/early 96 has the Goldust/Razor angle, anti-establishment Diesel showing the the middle finger on PPV, HBK's collapse and even guys like Ultimate Warrior cursing on TV, but then for everything like that you'd have a push back to the plumber-wrestlers, the Goon, and Hillbillies; the neutering of HBK's babyface character even after the backlash Diesel suffered after the same push really shows that the attitude mindset just didn't exist yet. I do think that by late 1996, however, that the Attitude era was in full swing, really starting with Survivor Series 96. Stone Cold was already starting to get popular, and if you remember there was a pretty noticeable shift in the way Raw was laid out, with heel-heel brawls between Austin/Vader/Mankind and all the top babyfaces at each others' throats over the World Title being probably the best example of "shades of gray" booking I can remember at anytime in WWF history. Shotgun Saturday Night came shortly after, and the first thing they did why have Marlena take her top off on TV, and then to really cap it off in my mind, in the lead up to Mania 13, Russo himself penned an article in WWF magazine titled "WWF Attitude." So yeah, it became official at Survivor Series 97 once it became a marketing slogan, but really I'd put Survivor Series 96 as the official start date. As for the end...I kind of agree with whomever said the start of the McMahon-Helmsley Era, since WWF made another fairly noticeable shift (to me anyway) to what I consider the Entertainment Era: reliance on heavily scripted promos and situations, less randomness, more emphasis on comedy and skits, etc. (there also a MUCH greater emphasis on match quality that I sometimes think takes away from enjoyment of the shows, but I digress). But really, most of those features didn't really start to dominate shows until Austin's title run in 2001, so it makes sense to put that as an endpoint. To Summarize: Survivor Series 1996 to about WM X-7.

I get the feeling that this is one of angles I'd probably shit on if it happened today, but damned if I didn't love it when I was 15! Probably my favorite memory of Val if I had to name one.

While we're exploring the origin of old jokes, where does this come from?

BTW, I tend to agree with NoCalMike on the issue. Business-wise, my biggest issue with Vince has been that he would play casual fans and basically ignore his core audience. Right now, a significant (and growing) portion of that core audience is made up of kids, so that it makes sense not to alienate them. Plus if more family friendly entertainment means less Katie Vick, then I'm all for it. There's a lot that WWE can do shape things up, but I don't think this is a step in the wrong direction. PG doesn't necessarily mean cartoony, just as "Mature" doesn't necessarily translate into good/entertaining.

HE'S HARDER THAN A ROCK AND HE CAN'T BE STOPPED SO SUCKA STEP TO THE SIDE UNLESS YOU WANNA GET DROPPED. THE BOYS FROM THE HOOD ARE ON THE M-I-C SPITTING OUT THE LYRICS JC ICE AND WOLFIE D! ^Thar ya go!

Crash's death never got mentioned on air by WWE, which annoyed some people at the time (this was during a time when wrestlers were seemingly dying once a week). They eventually got around to acknowledging it, though, and I vaguely remember seeing Richards wrestle a series of matches in Crash's tights as a tribute to him.

Dear God YES!!!!!!!! The worst part about it was that Kane was really getting over at the time, and this just killed his appeal.

Probably just the fact that the wings protrude so prominently. I can't remember too many other title belts with that feature.

Yeah, the white strap I-C Belt was just gorgeous. Probably my all time favorite if I had to pick one. I do like the Attitude era I-C belt though. I didn't like it when it first came out because it was too skinny, but the larger version is pretty nice. I actually prefer it to the black-strapped version of the 80s era belt.

I'm watching an old Raw from 1996 where Ahmed Johnson wins a battle royal to face the WWF Champion after SummerSlam. I was really intrigued by this move back in the day, since I was an Ahmed mark, but I really couldn't see him going over Shawn, or even facing him. Of course, Ahmed ended up getting injured, so the match had to be scrapped. Now as we know, Shawn defended the belt against Vader at that year's SummerSlam, and it's been rumored for the longest that Vader was supposed to go over, but that decision got overturned, supposedly due to a tantrum from Shawn. But is there any word what kind of impact Ahmed's injury had on that match? Ahmed/Vader seems like the much more fitting match based on how they were booked throughout the year, and in their one 1-on-1 match from that year, Vader actually ended Ahmed's undefeated streak (I think thanks to Owen Hart). It seems like an obvious move to have Vader beat Shawn and face Ahmed for the title, and I was wondering if Meltzer or anybody ever mentioned anything to this effect.

I think Billy Gunn is the only person I just flat out didn't want to achieve anything. Even though there were periods where I knew they could've gotten more out of him than they did, it brought a smile to my face to see him fail. On a lesser scale, as an HBK mark, and given the way Shawn got kicked out of DX in 98, I never wanted HHH to eclipse Shawn. Similarly, I never really wanted Lita to rise above Chyna.

You mean to tell me this thread has been open this long and NO ONE thought of posting this?! *smh*

The Cena/Booker best of 5 series from 04. It's a shame since I like both guys and really wanted to get into this, but they seemed to have no kind of in-ring chemistry. For that matter, I didn't like Booker's I-C Title matches with Christian from 03 either.

It was kind of hard to see Rikishi has having a legitimate grievance that he was taking too far when the guy he supposedly ran over Austin for was already the unofficial top babyface in the company, ridiculously over, and someone the company were clearly behind. Maybe they were aiming for the victim mentality demographic? I think the explanation made sense. As over as Rock was in 99, he was still Austin's number two and didn't really surge into the mainstream until Austin went down. Not only that, but Austin was actually facing the Rock in the main event the night he got run down. I dunno how the racism aspect really would've gone over had they played it to the max, but I think they had something with the notion of Rikishi taking credit for all of Rock's success. It just really would've helped if they had done something to condition people to accept him in that role. I don't even think the majority of the fanbase even knew Rock was Samoan at the time, much less that he was related to Rikishi. Also, that sudden switch from dancing fat man to race-conscious militant (I even remember him wearing dashikis on TV for a period) was pretty hard to reconcile, especially when he's still walking around in a thong every week. Just one of those things you can tell they really didn't think through.

I think KK hit the nail on the head when suggesting that the face turn in 01 was probably as bad, if not worse, than the heel turn. The heel turn was poorly executed, but I could at least respect that more than the "we liked you better when you danced" excuse they used to reset him. At least with the former there was some interest in seeing the confrontation with Austin. When they turned him face, they basically buried a character they'd spent a good six months trying to build up with no build to the turn, and IIRC the turn didn't even set up any kind of program so there was absolutely no reason to care. I've never been that huge a fan of his, but this turn always bothered me because WWF more or less told the audience that he wasn't a threat and that he was nothing more than a midcard comedy act, which I think was a lot more damaging than the heel turn.

General Interest Questions 1. Who are you and what's your business here? Papacita, and I ask myself the second question whenever I show up here. Going on seven years now...damn! 2. When did you discover an interest in wrestling? My brother was a big fan when he was young, but I didn't really get into it until 1991, just before WM7. I tuned into Prime Time Wrestling, which was showing a match between Mr. Perfect and Shawn Michaels (amazingly, both guys went onto to become all-time favorites of mine, even though I didn't care for either--especially Shawn--at the time). 3. The Company Line: A. WWF/E, ECW, WCW, ROH, USWA circa 95-97, TNA for about a week. Probably something else I'm forgetting. B. WWF was it when I was little, though I've always been a big ECW mark. I was really getting into WCW right up until Hogan showed up, and I really turned on them once the Monday Night War started. For the majority of 05-07, ROH was the only wrestling I followed, so I've got a lot of love for them currently, even though my interest in it has waned in the last year or so. C. What is your favourite company right now? Any reason why? Honestly, WWE when I do watch. Loves my ROH, but when WWE is on their shit, they're on their shit. 4. (Not So) Favourites: A. When I first started watching, it was all Warrior. After he left in 92, Perfect became my favorite (you can pretty much guess why). Michaels became my favorite around 95, and he's my all-time fav, and it'd be a crime if I didn't give Chyna a mention. Yeah, I still wubs my Chyna! Shut the fuck up! B. Billy Gunn, Hogan, HHH, Bret once he started feuding w/ Shawn/Austin. C. Shawn's still got the #1 spot locked for me. I went from having minimal interest in wrestling around the top of the year to being pretty drawn in by that Jericho feud by the summer. Jericho's up there too. The Punk/Raven feud from 03 was what got me into ROH, and I've had a soft spot for Punk ever since, and I like Danielson and Nigel McGuinness a whole lot. D. There was a 4th question here, but it basically ripped off the entire premise of a thread (or more than one thread, in theory) that already exists in General. Specific Questions about your Interest 5. How would you gauge your current interest level in the product? I don't get butterflies before PPVs anymore, but honestly that hasn't happened in a decade anyway. I noted that my interest in wrestling is up from previous years, but really that's only minimal, since I got around to following the good stuff through Youtube and stuff like that. I honestly don't even have the time to sit through a Raw/Smackdown these days, and when I can, I really don't have the patience for it. Wrestling just isn't a priority for me anymore, honestly. 6. At what point in wrestling history (if it's not now) would you consider your interest to have been at it's peak? Really 95-05, with 95-99 being the peak of my mark period. 2000-05 was still pretty interesting just because of the discovery of the IWC, as honestly it was pretty fun ripping WWE during that Katie Vick era when they just seeming to be coming up with all kinds of off the wall shit. 7. At what point could you tell your interest was dipping and why do you think this happened, or what specific event(s) triggered the decrease? No single event really. WWE's booking in 05 really killed my interest in their product, since it showed that they were still capable of putting out a product that could draw me in (the Batista stuff early that year, the first ONS, HBK's and Eddie's heel turns, portions of the Matt Hardy angle), but they seemed to be unwilling to shake things up, and by the end of the year seemed to be going the other way by bringing back Austin, Mr. McMahon, Hogan and a bunch of old-timers. Eddie's death didn't help matters either. 8. Have you ALWAYS stuck with wrestling even during times of low interest, or are there any lengths of time you stopped watching for a period only to come back at a later date? Until recently, I've always stuck with it. 9. If applicable, at what point did you decide to pack in the wrestling fandom? Interesting Questions of a Somewhat Random Nature 10. What style of pro wrestling best resonates with your personal tastes? Right now, I prefer the ROH style (that strikey-strikey, stiffy-stiffy thing they have going), but really a good match is a good match. Psychology and storytelling are always welcome. 11. Where do you "draw the line" with the whole "suspended disbelief" deal? Do you tell critics to "relax because it's just wrestling and you should enjoy the matches" (aka TNA fans about everything that happens on Impact!), do you come up with solutions that the writing team didn't bother to think about but you figure "it's there if you read between the lines" (aka "WWE Apologists"), somewhere inbetween, or do you take your greatest joy in watching wrestling to deconstruct everything that makes no sense? Probably in between. I've never watched with the purpose of analyzing a show, but I don't turn my brain off, and I tend to notice and comment on plot developments, both good and bad. It's RARE that I completely mark out for stuff though. 12. Do you attend live events? Not since 04. 13. If applicable, what are the best and worst experiences you've had going to a show live? Too many good experiences to name, but running into Heyman, Sandman and Dreamer at Mind Games ranks pretty high. Worst...any of the WCW shows I've gone to after 94. 14. What are your favourite matches, moments, or events? Chyna vs. Jericho! YOU LOVE THIS MATCH!!!!!!! *YOU LOVE THIS MATCH!!!!!* 15. Freestyle I'm done.

Ironically, my dad turns on a Chris Jericho promo as soon as I clicked on this thread. He's always been into boxing (in fact, he used to box), so he's always been down on wrestling. When I was growing up, he used to tease me for watching "fat men roll around pretending to fight," and for a while he actively sought to prove to me that it was fake (even though I always knew). This pretty much stopped around 98, when I noticed that he was following WWF on the low. My friends and I went to the Raw here in Philly that featured Kane and Mankind in HIAC. During the match, Kane got dropped on thumbtacks, and I was telling my dad how he was walking around with all these tacks sticking out of him, and he's like "yeah I know." But he was apparently only watching to see if he saw us on TV. He still hasn't changed his stance on wrestling, but I notice he pays extra attention when I'm watching ROH or some old school ECW stuff. He recently had a stroke, so he can't speak, but he still turns to me and smiles whenever he spots a contrived/fake looking spot. Meanwhile, my mom used to take both me and my older brother to shows, but she's always been pretty indifferent. Most notable thing about her is that she swore off wrestling after having to sit through a WCW Thunder taping (she changed her stance after going with me to a WWF show a couple of years later).

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport...icle1975272.ece Probably could go in the other thread, but Heyman speaks on the Hardy angle from Survivor Series.

This story got picked up and reported on AOL's "Top News" section. They're citing WWE.com as the source though.

What is it with Philadelphia and crappy PPVs? King of the Ring '95 and Wrestlemania XV were held there as well. Six PPVs in total, and three of them were absolutely terrible. We also got the botched Angle/HHH/Steph ending at Unforgiven 00. Sometimes I think they can't wait to come here and give us their worst shit...just to see the backlash from the crowd.

I hate trying to rank matches, but I'll give this a try: 1. Benoit/Angle from Rumble 03 2. WMXX World Title 3-way 3. Brock vs. Eddie from NWO 04 4. HBK/HHH from SS02 5. TLC One from SS 00. 6. Flair/HBK from WM 24 7. HBK/Jericho from WMX9 8. Cena/HBK/Orton/Edge from Backlash 07 (Criminally underrated match) 9. Austin/HHH from NWO 01 10. HBK/Shelton from 05 Other matches considered: I really wanted to try and find a way to fit Rock/Jericho from No Mercy in there. Also, the No Mercy Tag Final, Shawn/Jericho Ladder match from this year, Angle/Benoit Unforgiven 02, Cena/Shawn Raw match, and Foley/Edge.

Anybody think the steroid scandal from last year will end up helping him out? I know that the heat on that has cooled, but I always kinda attributed his lack of push to his lack of size. Maybe the need to have smaller performers in high profile positions will end up working to his advantage.

This would sort of require WWE to acknowledge and validate TNA's existence. I can't see them doing that, although at the same time I read something about Edge pushing pretty strongly for him, so maybe it'll work out for him. However he's booked, I'd rather have him as a heel, or at least a tweener. I dunno how he's been used since, but I really disliked his face run when he first came to TNA.