Papacita

I'm telling you, Tony's a slave driver. Nah, I'd be glad to work something out as a one time thing. Pretty sure I haven't forgotten how to use the program.

Having not read an OAOAST show in a long time, I must say that Colonel Abdullah Nerdly and the Heavenly Rockers (legit lol @ Synth Abdul Jabbar) amused the hell outta me. That, the Rodez angle and the ME are what stand out off the top of my head. Good stuff.

Given how many compelling angles/storylines he was involved in during his WWF run, I get the sense that he's a damn good storyteller. I agree he'd be a great Road Agent too, since he clearly knows what it takes to have a good/classic match.

Just to clear something up: when Russo got his big run with the book, didn't the writing crew basically consist of him and Ferrera? I was under the impression that the whole writing team concept was a direct reaction to their jump to WCW (essentially, trying not to put all their eggs in one basket). I don't think you're giving Russo enough credit. It's a tremendous help to have talent of Austin's caliber on your roster, but at the same time he needed an environment to thrive in. Frankly, it's a bit ridiculous to limit Russo's influence to March 98 on (or whenever he got the book on his own) when the WWF product underwent such a major overhaul as soon as he came on board (and that's ignoring whatever impact he had in late 96 when the Austin push really started to kick into gear). Just curious as to which Vince you feel was to blame for the shitty stuff that WWF produced in 99: Russo or McMahon? How are we measuring success? Writers don't always have the benefit of being able to produce TV at the absolute peak of a company's mainstream visibility.

Now that you mention it, this was posted in the blog of one of WWE's creative members a while back. http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/speciale...brian.html#more Dunno how true all that is, since, IIRC, he was on the team about 2 years or so after Kreski's run ended.

21: I think I may be the only person on the planet that didn't like HBK/Angle. My judgment could be a little skewed, because I was BURNT OUT at the time and I was falling asleep all throughout the match, which was THE reason I ordered the show that year, and that kinda ruined the whole experience for me. I'm not usually one to pick a match apart, but that whole sequence with Michaels working the headlock just irks the shit outta me for some reason (it just seems so awkward), and the rest seems like stuff that would be good in theory, but it just never pulled me in. Other than that, while I've never actually seen Batista/HHH (pretty much the same reason), I agree with most of what's been said. 22: Yessir! Really can't say too much that hasn't already been said about this one, except that it's just cool as hell to see the crowd going crazy for Mickie during the match with Trish. That camera shot of her leaning up against the ring apron while she soaks in this big ass pop is--aside from the obvious--the moment of the match for me. Edit: Oh yeah...Angle making both Orton AND Rey (the underdog babyface) tap during the World Title match was really irksome. Is there a wonder why Rey wasn't accepted as Champion???? 23: I've seen bits and pieces of this on YouTube. HBK and Cena doesn't do it for me (love their rematches, though) and Matt Hardy is a dick! A DICK! 24: Really liked this one, and it kinda renewed my interest in wrestling last year. I definitely think Flair/HBK was a classic, while everything other than Batista/Umaga was good-great. I even liked the Bunnymania match (Maria works her ass off in that match!).

Yeah, the Hart Foundation period is flat out my favorite period as a fan, so you're definitely not alone there. It was one of the rare times, for me anyway, that you actually felt like you were part of the show. Especially when they'd go to Canada one week and everyone would be Pro-Bret and anti-US, which would just motivate you to boo them extra hard the next time they did a show in the states. 97 and 98 are really close for me in terms of actual enjoyment. I agree; they really did seem to want to push Tazz before they came in. Wasn't he even put in a match with the Rock in his first or second appearance on Raw?

I think I'll vote for the guy whose stuff holds up today. You wouldn't say that storyline leading to the Rock's turn at Survivor Series 98 holds up today?

Yeah, I'll give him that too, since that's been a pet peeve of mine since I was little. The highlight of his run for me was the HHH/Angle/Steph stuff, and a lot of it was because of the continuity. Even with that, I wouldn't put his run over Russo's circa 98 or even Heyman era Smackdown.

Saves me the trouble of arguing it. Thank you, Jingus. Even though I've come to appreciate his stuff more since Steph took control, I didn't care for much of Kreski's stuff at the time. While he had more than a few enjoyable, entertaining things during his run, I absolutely hated his approach to TV, because shows really started to become overly-scripted and predictable (probably the most annoying trait of that era for me, and it's the one that seems to have had the most lasting effect). One of my least favorite periods in WWF history was from April to about June 00, with the McMahon-Helmsley 'Fact-gime' running wild and the constant booking of handicap matches, lumberjack matches and table matches (notice how they took what was a potentially money-drawing match around Royal Rumble time and had by April made it into something completely meaningless). While I enjoyed their PPV matches, I found much of the booking of the Rock/HHH feud to be boring and meaningless, with every other show ending with either HHH laying out the Rock or vice versa, with no real drama to it. It was especially striking in contrast to Russo's stuff, since for better or worse, most episodes of Raw tended to stand out individually whereas most of Kreski's stuff (though I give him a lot of credit for the Radicals/Foley retirement stuff and the one episode where Jericho won the belt) just seemed to run together for me. He had more than his share of positives, as I enjoyed most PPVs during his run, and some fantastic comedy skits with Head Cheese and Crash (Though I get the feeling that Gewirtz had a lot more to do with these than he's given credit for), and he also did a good job of what I felt at the time was a bloated roster after the Radicals jump, but I never got what was so great about him that some people were begging for his return.

How much do we think the XFL factors into this? The WWF benefitted from a ton of mainstream media exposure in 2000, even if the wrestling stigma didn't completely go away. Stuff like the XFL and--to a lesser extent--the Bob Costas interview did a lot of damage to Vince McMahon's mainstream credibility, and outside of things like the Billy and Chuck Wedding or maybe the Mayweather stuff, I personally can't recall WWE even sniffing mainstream acceptance since. Also, I'm a little surprised the Brand Extension hasn't been mentioned with respect to the boom. I remember back when I was running my e-fed, that was right up there with the Austin turn as far as why people were losing interest in wrestling. At the end of the day, though, I think hardcore fans don't give enough credence to that "cyclical" argument, because for all the bullshit we got from 01-03 (and I'm being generous with that timeframe), there was no way they were gonna be able to sustain those 99-00 numbers because most of that was just fad interest. I've heard the argument that Laz brought up about promoters failing to push new faces and stuff like that...and while I'm sure pushing the same people all the time definitely hurts the company's drawing power in the long run, that kind of logic also kinda assumes that every new face that's pushed is gonna be as successful as the previous one, or that every new creative direction is gonna be popular when neither of those conclusions are by any means guaranteed. It takes a special set of circumstances to bring on a boom-like environment, and while stuff like Austin's turn and the botched Invasion definitely hurt fan interest, I don't think things would've been significantly better if they had either stayed the course they were going or if they suddenly decided to push an entirely new crop of stars because I'd bet that most of those fans who left weren't going to stick around anyway; it was really only a matter of when.

2000: I swore Bull Buchanan was gonna be huge coming out of this show. Whatever happened to him? Anyway, this wasn't really that bad a show, but like everyone said, the finish kills it. For me, I don't think the problem was so much the fact that HHH went over (I'd have been completely fine with it if he won clean after a good match), but it was all the bullshit with the McMahons overshadowing everything. This was around the time where they were REALLY starting to outstay their welcome, and if there was any problem with HHH going over, it was worsened by having them go about it in such a convuluted way. Also, given Test's recent passing (BTW, there's an obvious pun that I don't think I've seen anyone try to make...if you're gonna joke about the man's death, do it right, damn it!), I'll give a mention to the T&A/Head Cheese match. This match was ASS, since Test and Albert seemed to have zero chemestry at the time. But I thought it was cool to see how those two worked over the next few months to improve into a fairly decent team, which is one reason I liked them. Hell, I'm still pissed that Bull and Godfather got a tag title run over them. That was some bullshit! Anyway... X-7: Good show, but I have almost zero emotional attachment to it so I can't rank it as one of my favorites. The one match I was really looking forward to was HHH/Taker, since I absolutely loathed the idea of HHH beating Taker PERIOD, much less at a Mania. Unfortunately, though, I didn't get to see the match until about 5 months or so after it aired, and while it wasn't bad, it was just underwhelming with all the suspense taken away. Hell of a build for this one, though. Re: Austin/Rock-I disagree with those who say that Austin shouldn't have turned. The WWF had changed dramatically in the year Austin was out, and by the time he came back from the neck injury, he was stale and seemed out of place. The heel turn pretty much had to happen in order for Austin to stay relevant, IMO, and I think if they had 1) taken more time to plant the seeds of the turn and 2) done the turn anywhere other than Texas, this would've gone over a lot better. I agree with the praise for match, though, and when you consider that you essentially have a heel going over for the second year in a row, this was executed a lot better than the HHH debacle from the previous year. And fuck TLC II while we're at it. Without shitting on the effort, I never got the love this match gets when compared to the others. X-8: Oh damn, I've been posting here for a long time! :worry: I agree with EWC that this was my least favorite WWE period, but I remember the show being surprisingly fun given all the bullshit we had going into it, but ultimately I didn't like it. Rock and Hogan is insanely overrated from an in ring perspective, but it's still a great moment, and it was hard not to get caught up in the atmosphere watching it live. I would've enjoyed the post-match (with Rock and Hogan becoming allies) a little more if Hogan hadn't tried to kille the Rock just a few weeks earlier. I did enjoy Taker/Flair too, and the Hardcore title stuff, though forced, at least gave me my all-time favorite WM moment where Christian beats Molly Holly for the belt (the best part was when she walked into the door ). My biggest gripe with the show: HHH/Jericho is easily the worst booked PPV World Title match ever! The Lucy/Stephanie bullshit has been well documented, and I think they top it off by actually putting HHH over here. Say what you will about it being wrong to have the heel go over, but Jericho's credibility was through the floor at this point. HHH was, at this point, rightfully being positioned as the top guy and really needed a strong, meaningful title win to push him over the edge. Instead, he went over an absolute joke of a Champion in front of a dead crowd after the shittiest build up in history; they essentially put a bullet in the man's title run before it even got off the ground. Instead of having him beat Jericho here, they should've shuffled the match to the midcard and let him retain, either by pinning HHH (that way, they could build Jericho up so there's at least some uncertainty their next encounter), or let him keep it in a cheap manner and just have him drop it to Austin (that seemed to be the match they really wanted at X-8 anyway) or someone with a little more credibility and have them transition the belt to Hunter. As it went down, this is just some shitty, shitty shit, and it's stuff like this that ultimately keeps HHH from being mentioned in the same breath with Rock and Austin despite having probably the best chance out of everybody to reach that level. XIX: I think they really overdid it with the big matches (there were like 5 matches on this show that could've been a standalone ME on a regular PPV), but I really liked this one at the end of the day. HBK/Jericho was my MOTN, but like people have said, not having Jericho go over hurts this. HHH/Booker...just read my last sentence under X-8. Austin/Rock and Hogan/McMahon were both fun, and while I didn't really care for Brock/Angle at the time, that one's grown on me over the years. Nothing stands out as bad to me. XX: As everyone's said, this was TOO DAMN LONG, but it was a fantastic show. Loved Jericho/Christian and Trish's big turn (I thought Christian could've gotten a believable run at the title after that), the Rock/Flair interaction (Orton murking Foley with the RKO is great too), the crowd shitting on Brock and Goldberg, and naturally the two title matches. Haven't even tried to watch this show since the deaths, so I'm not sure how this holds up for me.

I think in context of the storyline, it actually failed some. In one respect it was great, since it actually made it appear that there was some real heat going into the PPV (note how many people still refer to that promo as a shoot), but when you consider that one of the purposes was to turn Tazz, the segment loses something. Heyman came off so genuine and sincere that when Tazz came in to choke him out, it was hard to really sympathize with him or Vince.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-kH4YBr5qY "I THINK BOTH YOU BITCHES ARE CRAZY!"

So this means I don't get my T&A reunion? FUCK! I liked Test during most of his WWE run, and even enjoyed what I saw of his time on ECW (the Test/Knox vs Dreamer/Sandman feud was enjoyable while it lasted). I still think he was as big a victim of politics as anybody in WWE, as there's no reason he shouldn't have had a run at the top following that Stephanie angle. Hate for this to be a drug thing, since the last time I really paid any attention to Test, he was lashing out at WWE for their failure to commit to a decent drug policy. Oh well.

How about the Diesel/Razor matches in 94? XI: I had actually forgotten this until now, but this was the first Mania I saw live. I liked this a lot at the time, but since then it hasn't held up. The main event was what sold me on the show (although I've barely followed football and before this wouldn't have known LT if he passed me on the street), and I think it definitely lived up to the hype. I've never really cared for HBK and Diesel. I don't think I've ever seen Hart/Backlund in full, since our cable signal cut out in the middle of the match. I was always a bit of an Owen fan, so I LOVED seeing him pick up his first title here; that was a great moment. Other than that (and a mildly amusing JTT segment that I vaguely recall), nothing else stands out. XII: By this time, I was a full blown HBK mark, so this is naturally my show. The Iron man was good. I'm glad to see Diesel and Taker getting some much deserved praise. I actually think this was one of the better built Mania matches I can remember (especially for the time period), with a completely logical beginning (both guys feeling they deserve a title shot) and some believeable (well...about as believeable as you can get for mid-90's Taker) tension leading up to the show. It was also cool to watch Nash's development into the cocky bad ass territory, and really he seemed to be the first person since Hogan that could *believeably* stand up to Taker, so that only made things more interesting. As for other stuff...Warrior's return was cool, and it's nice to know I wasn't the only one obsessed with the goofy closed captioning mistakes ("Marrow") of the time. XIII: This was the first wrestling show I saw that just didn't like (AND I attended KOTR 95!). I agree with Cheech that the build for this show was crazy, and Bret/Austin more than delievered, but I was damn near bored to tears up until that match started. The 6 man was pretty enjoyable too, but outside of those matches, there was nothing here. XIV: Haven't seen it in long time, but I have fun memories of this show. Even though it was inevitable that he was going over, I *COMPLETELY* turned on Austin in the build to this one (he gave Chyna the Stunner, after all) and spent the bulk of the main event playing the heel mark while my dad and everybody was so sure he would win. But yeah, this was a fantastic show. The only match I didn't really enjoy was Taker/Kane, but I actually remember enjoying it a couple of times on repeat viewings. Otherwise, I agree with everything that's been said. XV: Mixed feelings on this show, as there was some really shitty stuff here that had no business being on Raw, much less a Mania. The Hardcore/I-C switch was just asinine, and even as a mark, the Tag Title match came off horribly, and the Cell match goes without saying. I didn't like Big Show/Foley either, come to think of it, and the Show turn just seemed oddly-timed and really lacked any kinda meaning for me. As for the good...I really liked X-Pac and Shane at the time, and but the HHH swerve at the end is flat out one of my favorite turns ever in that it completely caught me off guard when it happened, but looking back it made perfect sense. I dunno if it's my DX-bias coloring this for me or Russo's tendency to overload on swerves watering this down for everyone else, but I still think that whole angle was great. LOVED the Bart Gunn knock out as well, and the main event--while I agree it didn't hold up--was fun for what it was. Ultimately, I can competely understand why someone would peg this as the worst Mania ever.

I got everyone but .

I'm an HBK mark, but a few years back (I wanna say 05) they had a pretty funny moment where Raw came to MSG. For some reason, JR and King are discussing great ovations, and JR says something like "if you thought that was great, wait til you hear the response when HBK steps out here in a few moments, MAKING HIS RETURN TO THE GARDEN"! So Shawn's music hits shortly thereafter, and the pop wasn't all that bad, but nowhere near what JR hyped it to be. It's made even more funny by JR's going into complete oversell mode with his "BAH GAWD HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THIS TYPE OF OVATION?!" type stuff. Similarly, at Bad Blood 2004 (I think), Orton is being interviewed backstage as he prepares for his match against Shelton. It was actually one of the better Orton promos from this period, as he showed pretty good intensity, etc...but it also clearly written for him. The who premise of the segment is that Orton's cutting a backstage promo and is so angered by the fans' booing him that he has to come out to the live crowd to address them. Of course Orton was over as hell by this point, and the fans started cheering him from the moment he appeared on screen. Orton didn't even try to adlib IIRC, so the whole thing--while cool to see how Orton was progressing--came off awkwardly. John Cena's feuds against Jericho and Kurt Angle in 2005 where the writers tried everything they could to get fans to cheer Cena against these crowd favorites (e.g. 'Kurt Angle hates the troops') and not only failing miserably, but actually causing a good percentage of fans to turn on Cena in the process. "CLB," with respect to Christian. Kurt Angle's joining the Alliance in 01 after Austin threw his gold medals over a bridge, although this was kinda cool in the sense that Austin thought enough of Kurt to fish the medals out for him.

I'm more bothered by the sight of Jericho trying to party with all those young kids. It's like one of those "which of these doesn't belong" scenes.

Yeah, it was pretty much the typical heel "I was sent there to do a job" thing, but the undertones strongly suggested that he never forgave him for WM9. In particular, I remember him being interviewed on the Heartbreak Hotel where he's saying stuff like "Just because he knocked me out a year ago at Wrestlemania doesn't mean I'm incapable of doing my job," and "just because I didn't jump on the bandwagon and put on a red, white and blue wristband (referring to the Lex Express/SummerSlam build) doesn't mean that I've got beef Lex Luger." It was interesting for me, because Perfect was my favorite at the time, and he was the first heel I really ever backed. And what's this shit about Perfect being a bad announcer? Perfect was perfect! 8 is probably my all-time favorite Mania, with the Flair/Savage and the post-match being some of my favorite stuff ever. "Everytime I see your old lady, I'm gonna kiss her...on those MOIST...WET...LIPS! WHOOOOOO!!!!!" I actually watched Taker/Gonzales last week. The match and the booking weren't good by any means, but I think Taker gets a little too much blame for this. You can really see he was trying to get something good out of him. And it's been a LONG time since I watched it, but I remember Steiners vs the Headshrinkers being really good. Isn't this the match where Rick caught and powerslammed one of the Headshrinkers in midair as they were going for the Doomsday Device? That spot was nasty. Mania X's ladder match never really did it for me (I still prefer the SS 95 rematch), but I still think this is a classic show that more than deserves its reputation. Glad to see you all give Bret's title win the proper due, since I always felt that was a lot of what makes the show special.

Faarooq and Ahmed Johnson circa KOTR 97, but much more Ahmed. Ahmed was actually a face at the time, so for me it meant a lot when could come out and say, essentially, "I'm not a racist like Faarooq, but Vince, he's got a point about you not giving World title opportunities to black wrestlers." Of course this all ended up leading to his heel turn, but for the moment it was nice that he could express that on TV without being labeled or delegitimized in any way. Not so much Luna against Sable (even though you could see Luna was right), but I've sided with pretty much every woman who claimed about the Divas getting opportunities because of their looks. Victoria beating up all the Diva Search girls, citing as her motivation stuff that a good percentage of us had been complaining about for roughly a year, and then being written off as a jealous Diva was particularly irritating for me. Molly Holly in general. WWE always tended to have some warped logic when it came to her. Moving away from the social context, I sided with Sid Justice against Hulk Hogan in the build up to WM8, especially when Hogan got mad and tried to pull him out of the Rumble.

So was I the only one that thought the bridge thing was goofy at the time? I could not watch that without laughing, and I was in full on mark mode at that point. I did, however, like the Raw where Taker abducted Austin from the hospital and tried to embalm him. I have no problem saying that would drive me mad if that went down today. Then there's that one Raw where Austin abducted Vince and held him at gunpoint. I still think that one's fantastic, but so much of that was due to the context of the storyline that I might have a hard time accepting that if it went down today.

From the 411 Raw recap: "Orton tells him he can't touch him before Wrestlemania unless he's physically provoked." Did he actually say that? Sounded like a great segment from what I read, but why have Orton give HHH an out to touch him? I know they're kind of in a bind with the authority figures having been taken out, but still... I also noticed that HBK mentioned his back injury from 98...not that the match needs that much more of a build up, but does anyone think they'll try to bring in the fact that it was Taker who actually gave Shawn that injury?

I've gotta disagree. That was a very creative use of the Hulk up and it made perfect sense given Hogan's character and history. The stupid thing was that Beefcake released the sleeper so early to allow him to do it.

Yeah, I can barely find time to catch it on TV either, but they post full episodes over at the Nicktoons site, which I'd definitely recommend for folks that are interested in checking it out. Here's the link: http://nicktoonsnetwork.nick.com/shows/wol...des/index.jhtml