Papacita

On Orlando, no he wouldn't (and shouldn't) be a credible challenger for the US title, but if he's shown enough improvement, I don't see why he couldn't be brought up to work a few Smackdown shows to get exposure. And that's what I think they should've done with Orton. Let him grow in Heat...maybe let him work OVW or other indy shows (yeah right) to get his skills together...the office would work with him on his promos (because you knew from day 1 they were intent on giving him a big push), and then once he starts showing a significant improvement, bring him up to Raw and work from there. It wouldn't hurt him, and they'd probably have gotten even more out of him than they have with his current push, because he'd have been better prepared. And on his push, I really don't think they played to his strengths all that well either, because even with the improvement he's made, his weaknesses on the mic and in the ring still shine through to a degree. If anything, I think they made it a little harder on him by driving home how special he was and how much of a blue chipper he was before he really got a chance to do anything. That's probably why part of the reason it took so long for people to really take to his character.

The 95/96 shows are a little iffy, but the 97/98 stuff was great. Better entertainment than for actual wrestling though. Another Raw I liked from 95 was the show where Bulldog turned on Diesel...just prior to SummerSlam.

The post-Rumble 96 Raw where Vader attacked Gorilla Monsoon. For 97, damn near anything from 4/21 on is great. My favorites are the Austin/Bret street fight (with Austin attacking Bret in the ambulance and Pillman's return), the Memorial Day show with HBK and Austin winning the tag belts, the Flag Match in Halifax in July, the San Antonio show where Dude Love debuted, 8/11 with Michaels/Mankind, 8/18 from Atlantic City (I was there!), and 9/22 from MSG with Austin stunning McMahon for the first time. For 98...I can't remember as many dates, but there's the post-Rumble Raw with Austin and Tyson, the February Raw where the Outlaws tossed Cactus and Terry Funk off the stage in a dumpster, the Raw where Tyson joined DX, the post-Mania Raw with Austin/McMahon, X-Pac's return, the new DX and Faarooq being kicked out of the Nation, the Raw in July (I think it was 2 weeks after KOTR) where Kane and Mankind won the Tag Titles from the Outlaws, 8/24 from Philly, the post-Breakdown show...man I'll stop there. For 99...August 9 (Jericho's debut...plus CHYNA as #1 contender) was probably my favorite show. That, or the episode where Foley won the title for the first time.

I never said that he was clueless, and I've already acknowledged his improvement...at least I think I have, I'm too lazy to go back and look. I just don't like their method of pushing him. He's over, so it's all good I guess, but I still don't see the point of pushing him that hard when it could've easily gone to someone else. London isn't over because WWE doesn't play to his strengths. If he had the opportunity to wrestle on Smackdown every week against guys like Mysterio and Chavo, he may come out on the losing end, but since his strength is in his wrestling, eventually, people are gonna start taking notice of him. Aside from his early days as Rocky Maivia, Rock was never booked to look particularly strong. His big push came during a period where he was handled regularly by Austin and Ken Shamrock, but they played up his personality and fans started taking to him. Now I'm not saying that he could go on a 2 year losing streak and come out smelling like roses, but if he's got something to offer and it's showcased, people will start to take notice, and that's where the push should come.

The company needs new faces in the upper mid-card, but they need guys that know what they're doing, and I don't always get the sense that Orton knows what he's doing in there. Guys like Matt Hardy, Christian, Hurricane and even Rhyno would've been sufficient enough, and probably better choices because not only are they better workers, because in the cases of Matt and Christian, you've got two guys who were pretty over during the Attitude era, which makes them more recognizable to that casual audience WWE was trying to get at a couple of years back. The need for someone like Orton at this point in his career was never there, IMO, so if he's got kinks to work out, I see no reason why they couldn't have allowed him to work them out on Heat, Velocity or whatever instead of just forcing him up there and hoping that he steps his game up along the way. It didn't hurt Rock any. HHH survived it. It really shouldn't be a problem with Orton. You don't need to be booked like Superman from the start in order to be a star. Like HHH said, the cream always rises to the top eventually, right? Also, personally, I've always found it easier to get into characters when you watch them work their way from the bottom to the top. I dunno if anyone else feels the same. That was never my issue with Orton. I just never understood why they had to get him over at this point in his career. And again, he really hasn't brought anything to the table that guys that were already on the roster couldn't have. What has he done that Stevie Richards or even Garrison Cade couldn't have done with the same push? But in theory, if they start putting over the guys they've got and making stars out of them, then 2-3 years down the line, when it's time for Orton and the like to come up, they won't need to rely on those names anymore. They basically wrote off a whole group of guys without giving them the chance to amount to anything.

But how is it worth all that trouble when once he gets onto a major stage, he's still got a significant amount of learning to do? I mean, when you really sit back and think about it, has he really accomplished anything that couldn't have been done (and done better) by more experienced wrestlers? I don't wanna sound like I'm hating on him or anything, because I've been kinder to Orton than most posters here, but I never really understood the urgency in getting him over so soon because he's still very young. He's probably got a lot more years left in the business and in all likelihood, he was gonna be a star anyway, so why the rush?

So does everyone think that the Orton push was worth it in the long run? I'm not questioning whether or not the push worked, because he's clearly over, but I still find it a little funny that it took all of that effort to get him there in comparison to someone like Christian, who with about half the effort was getting one of the best reactions on Raw prior to his injury. And not to say that Christian should receive some kind of super push or anything, but when it takes that much work to get someone over (someone who's still pretty green at that), is really worth the trouble?

Yes and no. I've found myself marking for Orton a lot lately--for the RKO (especially the one from Mania), his entrance, and just the fact that he's bringing focus back to the I-C Belt (which has always been my favorite belt). However, once you get past all that, he's still pretty green and I'm not feeling his promos all that much either (he has his moments, but he's nothing to write home about).

He attacked Rock after he was eliminated in the WWF/Alliance Survivor Series match and got labeled as an egomaniac.

Don't know why, but I always figured you were older than that. Like at least 28 or something.

I'm 20, but I feel like I'm 45.

Yes. Yes you are.

Lita made the fatal mistake of not swearing the camera guy, the guys in the production truck, J.R., the King, and the millions watching at home to secrecy as well. I'd be funny if they went the whole 9 months and everyone but Matt knew she was pregnant. Have the announcers suddenly stop mentioning it whenever he comes around and everything...

Must they have these "confidential" moments in plain view of the camera?

I get the feeling that they're probably gonna try and run a program between Eugene and HHH/Evolution sometime in the next few months just based on the fact that HHH is his favorite wrestler...maybe they'll try and use Eugene to get a face turn out of Trips.

I didn't see Heat, but yeah, you could hear a bunch of Orton chants during the I-C Title match. And they showed the standing O thing too. That made me laugh too, because one minute, Shawn's lying there half dead on the canvas and the next, he's up shaking hands with the ref like everything's fine. At least that's how it came off to me. I dunno.

I was nodding off during the live showing and I just caught the replay...the show was disappointing considering what it could've been, but it wasn't bad. The main event bored me to tears during the first viewing, but after watching it the second time, I kinda liked it. I agree that they could've chopped off a good 10 minutes or so from the match, the ladder spot was completely unnecessary, and the pace could've been a little bit faster. I did get a laugh out of the commentary though. At one point, the crowd starts chanting "Holy shit", and JR says "these fans are chanting for Michaels." I dunno about y'all, but I found that funny as hell. Other stuff...I was a little bit disappointed in Orton/Shelton, but like the ME, I enjoyed it a little more watching the replay. Also, they've gotta start teaching guys like Orton to ad-lib on the mic. He starts going off about the fans booing him when the crowd had been silent for like a minute. It got him heat, so it didn't come off looking too bad, but suppose the fans didn't boo...or if they gave him a standing ovation. That's just another reason I don't like scripted promos...and if they must script them, at least show him how to read the crowd a little better. I liked the finish to Benoit/Kane, but that's about it. I just couldn't get into that one. I really don't see the point of stressing Benoit having to wrestle "two grueling matches" when Edge took the majority of the punishment in the tag match. And maybe I missed it, but did Benoit even try to sell Kane's post-tag match attack during the title match? I actually liked Jericho/Tomko for some reason (low expectations probably), and the Women's match was alright. I liked Eugene/Coach for what it was, even though part of me wanted to see Coach win just to shake things up a little. The show was ok.

WWE-World Heavyweight Championship Match: Chris Benoit © vs. Kane Predicted Winner: Chris Benoit. Desired Winner: Benoit Hell In A Cell Match: Shawn Michaels vs. Triple H Predicted Winner: Triple H, especially if they plan on putting the title back on him by SummerSlam. Desired Winner: The mark in me wants HBK to win, but it'd probably be best for HHH to go over. WWE-Intercontinental Championship Match: Randy Orton © vs. Shelton Benjamin Predicted Winner: Orton Desired Winner: Orton. I like Shelton, but it's a bit too soon to put the title on him. Plus, taking the belt off Orton at this point would stunt any momentum he gained from the Foley win. I'd like to see this program stretch over the next couple of months--it'd be a good step to rebuilding the I-C Belt. WWE-Tag Team Championship Match: La Resistance © vs. Chris Benoit & Edge Predicted Winners: La Resistance. Desired Winners: La Resistance WWE-Womens Championship Match: Victoria © vs. Gail Kim vs. Lita vs. Trish Stratus Predicted Winner: Knowing them, Lita. Desired Winner: Vicky. No real reason. Chris Jericho vs. Tyson Tomko Predicted Winner: Knowing WWE, they probably would put Tomko over, but at the same time, I can't see them putting a worker that bad over somebody like Jericho. Desired Winner: Chris Jericho Eugene vs. Jonathon Coachman Predicted Winner: I'll go out on a limb and say Coach, just to be different. Desired Winner: Eugene I guess.

I really don't have anything planned for Chris Bryte match-wise, so I'm good for a match if you are. Match or not, there will be a Bryte promo.

Serves Bret right, since he didn't want to properly put over Shawn at WMXII and left the ring like a sore loser. Also, I read that Sid was scheduled to win the Title again (??) on that thursday show, so at what point would Shawn have reclaimed the Title. At Final Four? The only reason why Final Four was created is because of HBK giving up the title. So I doubt it would have been there if that was the case. The event was originally scheduled to have the winner go on to face the champion at Wrestlemania as a result of Austin cheating to win the Rumble. Shawn giving up the title was kind of last minute thing (it happened just days before the PPV event, IIRC), so they decided to put the title on the line there. And yeah, there had been ads (both magazine and TV) for the Final Four event for a while featuring Sid, Michaels, Austin and Bret. As for Shawn giving up the title...at the time, I was upset because I thought he was legit injured, but I always found it a little funny. I remember an episode of Raw where JR was spitting out some anti-WCW propaganda, and he says something like "No bait-and-switch tactics here (referring to a promised Hogan/Giant title match on Nitro a few weeks earlier). What we promise, we deliver, and WE PROMISE that Shawn Michaels will go into Thursday RAW Thursday to defend the title against Sycho Sid!"

Taker/Austin from Backlash 02. I hate that match with a passion.

That would be the Raw the night after Wrestlemania 13. 3/24/97.

During their heel run in 98, Headbangers also had the catchphrase "There's no right way, there's no wrong way, there's only the Headbanger way." I always thought it was cool (as some of the OAOAST folks could probably attest to), but it never caught on with the fans.

I might as well mention Mind Games back in 96. That was fucking crazy. I walked into the Corestates Center that night, took one look around and saw Sandman, Tommy Dreamer and Paul Heyman staring me right in the face. I flipped when I saw them. Unfortunately though, I didn't get an autograph because I was too damn star struck. And of coure, the stuff that went down during the Savio/Bradshaw match was a big markout moment.

They were yellow and black nerf balls with little fins on one of the ends to make it look like a missile or something. For a while he threw them out into the crowd before his matches.