Papacita

I actually found out that Jericho won the belt prior to watching the show. After seeing Shawn/Jericho, I was actually concerned that having Jericho come back to win would end up making HBK look weak, but after watching all the relevant stuff, I've gotta say that they pulled it off pretty well. The difference between the Unforgiven match and the one from GAB is that going into GAB, HBK had a bunch of kayfabe injuries, most specifically the eye injury that ultimately ended up doing him in. Here, Jericho came in healthy, and while it would've been nice for Shawn to repay the favor by giving him and injury of how own, the fact that he didn't doesn't make Shawn look any weaker. Plus, the post-match interview from Shawn makes it seem like he's not done with Chris, so it at least makes sense from that aspect not to have him inflict ultimate revenge right now then continuing to attack him after the fact. I see the point about CM Punk's condition seeming like an afterthought, but I think it's understandable because it was obviously done to build suspense for Jericho's entrance. Perhaps they should've played it up a little more (in fact, I'll say they should have) but as is, it's minor and really doesn't hurt Punk at all. I actually really liked the scene where Orton and Co. eliminated Punk from the Scramble (they get tons of cool points from me for getting Kofi involved. That was great). I would've prefered that he keep the title a little longer and establish himself as a champion, but this feud with Orton seems promising and I'm actually looking forward to it. It would be nice if Punk could go one show without getting laid out by someone, though, and I can see both sides of the argument as far as whether or not Punk looked bad by being replaced by someone who had taken a lot more punishment. True, the kick is built up as a killer, and logically, it makes sense, but still I definitely see how someone could watch that and say that Punk looked bad when compared to Jericho.

Was lurking in late 01 after the whole Wrestleline shutdown. Signed up not long before the transition to TSM and have pretty much been here ever since.

I can see where the whole "lame duck" argument comes from, but as a mark I loved this reign. The Bulldog match from IYH was one of my favorite matches EVER, and it's kinda hard to say he was booked as an afterthought when two of the biggest stars in the company, Diesel and Taker, were breathing down his neck. Plus while WWF wasn't like it is now where shows undisputedly revolve around a single character, Bret was still quite arguably the face of the company during that reign. Of course, by January, it was OBVIOUS that Shawn was taking the belt at Mania, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, BTW. Also, one might argue that the treatment following most of his major title defenses (getting laid out by Diesel following the title win, being spared by outside interference in the Rumble and IYH6 title defenses) made him look weak as a champion. If we were talking about a young wrestler in their first title reign, I might agree, but it's Bret Hart, who was already cemented as arguably best on the roster. Remember, at the time Bret was the only person other than Hogan to be a 3 time WWF Champion. That in itself is a pretty big statement about Bret's worth in the company at that point.

I ordered it along with an ROH DVD online, and it all came in together.

Just got the Mr. Perfect DVD and watched the documentary. I don't usually do the DVD threads, so I don't know how this is typically handled, but...

Not that I really disagree with the logic (I do think there's a point where if too much big stuff mashed in together, things start to lose impact), has there ever been a good example of a crowd flat out burning out due to the match arrangement? A lot of people cite Rock/Hogan from WM18 as the reason the crowd was dead for the HHH/Jericho, but the match they were dead for also happened to be possibly the worst built title match in history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVcrYlZYwY8 Luna/Sherri Catfight from Raw in 93. This was one of my favorite early Raw moments.

I haven't watched it since I was 12, but for some reason, I remember liking Yoko/Mabel. I just remember this one clothesline spot that Mabel may or may not have even done and it just made my night, man! Made my night! I remember the Tag Title match being good, with Kid heeling it up. Of course, I liked the Douglas/Razor match (aside from the odd ending) at the time, and after viewing it (and the one from the previous show) a couple of years later, I realized how bad they were, so who knows how the other one was. I think I was incapable of disliking a wrestling show at this point in my life, but even watching with that mindset, this show was pretty forgettable.

How about Booker at WM19? He was arguably the #1 face (or at least a near second) on the Raw roster at the time and playing the race card like they did put them in a position where he more or less had to go over...and he gets killed by the Pedigree. As fondly as WMXX was looked upon, Benoit could've EASILY been Champion after Rumble 03.

I'm a little iffy on RVD in 01, but I definitely disagree with Jericho at that time. Jericho was over and probably would've been accepted had he won, but for somebody that had been programmed with Chyna in the midcard for the previous 5 months, just hotshotting the title on him like that was too big a risk. He definitely should have gotten the belt before the end of 2000, though, but not on that Raw. Definitely agree with Vader in the summer/fall of 96. I think Al Snow should've won the ECW Title at Wrestlepalooza 98, although I realize why they couldn't go there. Though he was never really in the title picture, I think Tazz really should've gotten the I-C Title around SummerSlam 2000 instead of going into that feud with Lawler and JR.

I could see Diesel blowing up like Austin did if he stayed the course he was on before he left. I dunno if he would've been able to flourish like Austin did, though, because without the nWo to boost Nitro, I dunno if Vince would've experimented with the "shades of gray" approach that made the Attitude era popular (although there were some elements of that being seen in late 95/early 96 prior to Hall and Nash leaving). One thing I think is interesting is that if Hall and Nash stay, there's no curtain call. HHH never gets punished, he wins KOTR that year, and the Austin 3:16 promo never happens. I don't know if WCW is as bad off as others seem to, since Nitro was still fresh and pretty innovative even without the nWo. They still had the Cruiserweights, some interesting stuff with Savage and Flair, and Sullivan and Benoit, plus the money to start snatching up other stars (I agree with those who say Bret would be a likely steal). I dunno how stale things would get in the long run either, because for some reason I still see Hogan going heel even without Hall and Nash (weren't crowds already starting to turn on him?), albeit with a little less impact. Either that, or Bischoff moves him along sooner once he starts to become too much of a problem (this is assuming that he doesn't give WCW a significant advantage in the war).

Probably HBK/Mankind at the end of the day (Mind Games). That and Rumble 04 are the easy answers. I was at the Raw where HHH and HBK teamed against Taker and Mankind...wasn't the best, but it's probably my favorite match of all the ones I've seen (toss up with the Mind Games match). There was also an HBK/HHH house show match in 96 that I remember being damn good.

I don't like to do star ratings either, but again I thought they had a nice little match there. It was very smartly worked and even had a couple of cool spots IIRC (Khali just slapping HHH down from the apron was great). I dunno if I'd go as far a 3 stars, but I enjoyed what was there.

Chris is my dude, but they get the BOO-URNS for that ending. And it was so abrupt at that. At least have Chris do some more extravagant cheating. Good match, though.

Christian's Captain Charisma shirt was selling pretty well before he went to TNA IIRC.

We were talking about this in the chat room last night...people were contending that he has been looking weak. Hawk said it best when he said he doesn't look weak, he looks vulnerable. I don't think the loses he's suffered this year are going to affect him at all. He'll eventually redeem himself. It's not so much the losing that concerns me, it's more that he's dropping big matches to guys who really don't stand to gain from them in the long run. It made sense to have Orton go over him, since it helped solidify him at that level, but I see no real benefit in the last three jobs he did. The HHH one was pretty much meaningless and at most served to pop a quick buyrate. Same with Batista for the most part, and it was rushed at that. The Bradshaw job at least served a purpose in building Bradshaw for Punk, but again that's only short term and now that's out the window. Cena's probably the one guy on the roster over enough to get away with being jobbed like that, and he's still the focus of the show so it's not like it really matters all that much, but--especially when you consider the superman build he's had in the past--I just hate to see him drop meaningless matches and really hope it goes somewhere.

I thought this show was good from what I saw. In terms of stuff that stood out (in no kinda order), MVP seemed impressive in the match with Hardy (that Drive By kick is a hot ass finisher). Believe it or not, I think this was the first time I really got to see Khali in action, and I was actually feeling the match with HHH up until the finish. Might just be me, but those chops and everything seemed really believeable and they worked well in playing towards his strengths and telling a good story. The HBK/Jericho angle was great as usual, and I'm glad they went the route with HBK actually deciding to retire instead of doing the predictable "defying doctor's advice" stuff they always tend to run. Matt Hardy and Mark Henry was absolute bullshit. They could've cut down on some of the entrances and what not and at least given us a couple of minutes of action. The mixed tag was great. Loved the spot where Kofi faked the dive and Santino leapt into Beth's arms. Punk and Bradshaw was what it was. I was actually asleep for a good part of Cena/Batista so I can't comment on quality, but jobbing Cena again is an odd move. Hopefully it's going somewhere, because I hate to see him job for no reason. Main Event was a little disappointing given all the stuff I've been reading about with Edge, but I thought the ending was pretty well worked. I liked Taker running through all the stuff that Edge had done to him and paying him back. The chokeslam to hell spot was contrived (I hate stuff like that) but I think the idea (with the fire and what not) was kinda cool given Taker's character; I generally don't mind that kinda stuff with him. BTW, I must've seen that video package with Vicki announcing Hell in a Cell at least 3 times now, but I think that's one of the best videos they've ever done. The sound of her just laughing in the background just makes that video. Nothing blow away on the show but only one flat out bad thing going on. Can't complain.

Because this is my first time starting a thread since God knows when, I need this discussion to be either REALLY good or REALLY shitty! No in between! Go all out for this one, people! This is an event! Basically, I was reading the Debuts and Downfalls thread and started thinking about the wrestlers who, for whatever reason, had their push intentionally sabotaged, and I'd like for you kind folk here at TSM to post about those wrestlers in this thread. The sabotage could be something that was factually proven true, something you speculate was true...fuck, if you were the one who did the sabotaging, then share the details. I've got a few that come to mind, but right off the bat, one I've always thought was fishy--and this is really what inspired me to make this thread--was Scott Steiner's 2003 run with WWE. Most folks will disagree here, since he wasn't all that popular with the net crowd, and because by the time he arrived he was in SUCH bad shape, but here's what I don't get with Steiner: We've had people on here post about how selfish HHH was in a *good* match with RVD just because he decided to work a more old school style, which wasn't really RVD's strength. HBK gets criticized for overselling against Hogan despite carrying him to his most watchable match in years and doing absolutely zero damage to Hogan's reputation. In Steiner, you have one of the most over people on the roster going into Rumble 03 (at least in terms of crowd reaction), and he comes out of a horrible match damn near ruined! Could he have been in better shape? Hell yes, he could have! But you mean to tell me that NO ONE in WWE knew of Steiner's condition going into the match? I remember reports being posted nearly a month earlier that the house show matches between the two were horrible, yet they take this man who's CLEARLY not in shape and give him a damn near 20 minute match??? And you think they were surprised at the result? Oh, and props to HHH for his performance, right??? He was such a pro for selling for Steiner's offense like he did! For doing whatever he could to salvage this match! Right??? Perhaps. In fairness to HHH here, they had already planned to do a rematch at the next PPV, and it was his job to do what he could to set that up. But his bumping and selling was far more harmful to Steiner that HBK's was to Hogan, since it made him (the heel) into the sympathetic figure for seemingly doing all the work, stripped the match of any believeability and Steiner of any credibility he may have had left. Basically, Steiner was in over his head in WWE main event scene, but you can't tell me they wouldn't have gotten more out of him if they hadn't laid the match out the way they did. I believe this match was intentionally booked to expose Scott Steiner's weaknesses on one of the biggest PPVs of the year, and that, my fellow posters, is the very definition of the word... SABOTAGE!!! Your turn. Post!!! And feel free to use as many exclamation marks as you can!!! Spare no expense, baby!!! For this thread, there's never enough!!!

1. Favorite Summerslam Overall? 2002 Hands down. Great action from top to bottom, plus HBK's return. 2. Favorite World title match? Probably Bret/Taker if I HAD to sit down and just choose one. The heat for that finish was just amazing. 3. Favorite Mid-Card title match? Bret vs Perfect from SummerSlam 91, the first PPV I ever ordered. Closely followed by Shawn/Razor from SummerSlam 95 (which I think is insanely underrated even with the botched finishes). 4. Favorite Tag Team title match? Edge and Christian Vs The Hardy Boyz Vs The Dudley Boys TLC Match (2000). Easy. 5. Favorite Non Title match? Shawn Michaels Vs Triple H street fight (2002). I was just in complete mark mode for this one, which was RARE in 2002. 6. Favorite Segment?: The Mountie goes to jail at SummerSlam 91. "Doncha just love the feel of leather against your body"? 7. Things You Hated Besides Goldberg screwed out of winning the Elimination Chamber? Well, that would've been the first thing that came to mind. The only thing from the SummerSlams I've seen that actively stood out as bad. Bonus Round! 8. Least favorite SummerSlam overall? 03 was the only SummerSlam that I flat out didn't like. I liked 96 at the time (with the Boiler Room Brawl finish and HBK/Vader) but I agree with those who say it fell flat. 9. Least favorite match? Since we're talking preference and not necessarily quality, Elimination Chamber in 03 (can you tell I didn't like that one?). In terms of actual quality, I'd probably go with Diesel/Mabel, but I can't hate that match since it gives me a good laugh everytime I watch it. 10. Most Underrated SummerSlam? 95 is a pretty strong show that gets unfairly stigmatized due to the company's direction at the time. 11. Most Underrated Match? I'll say Bret/Doink/Lawler from 93. I just saw it for the first time about a month ago and the atmosphere and everything just blew me away. I think this is just some classic stuff yet I never really hear much about it. Aside from that, I'll second Kid/Hakushi, though I remember Barry Horowitz vs Skip from 95 being pretty good as well.

I was gonna make a joke about Mysterio's family, but Spiff beat me to it. DAMN YOU SPIFF!!!! I like the new development w/ Mysterio, but this would've been good angle too. I could see tortured Kane destroying opponents every week, then putting the mask on them to hide their pain. They could make up some psycho/bullshit explanation of how losing the mask left him exposed and vulnerable to the world, and his giving the mask out is a way to provide others the refuge that he was denied. Would've been cooler if that was done 5 years ago, but this could've been interesting.

Didn't watch, but that Kane/Mysterio thing sounds interesting as hell. Not sure how it came off on the show, but I really wanna see where that goes.

http://www.dailymotion.com/TSteck160/video...r-perfect_sport Mr. Perfect vs Rick Martel: Raw 1993 I can see people being annoyed by the ending, but I thought that was pretty cool at the time.

Yes sir! SummerSlam 97 was pretty good too, with Shawn accidentally costing Taker the belt. Warrior's return at WM8, as well as the win over Hogan at 6.

There was a deal where they were supposed to have an evening gown match between Sable and Debra for the Women's belt on Raw. Shawn, then the Commissioner, made a ruling that even though Debra lost, since they had already seen Sable naked, then Debra should be awarded the title. He basically kept putting her down about posing for Playboy, throwing a few shots at Nicole Bass as well (step off mister), and I think that was the last time she was on TV until 03. Don't really remember anything happening w/ Hunter though.

I don't really recall Rick Rude getting buried when he jumped to WCW that last time. I remember them having Harvey Wippleman or someone come out to taking his spot in a DX interview the week after he appeared Nitro, with Shawn more or less implying that he wasn't needed. On LiveWire that weekend, the announcers kinda joked about the situation, saying "Damn, Rick Rude was everywhere last Monday"! For explanations, there was the Mr. America thing from 03 after a dispute between Hogan and Vince. It ended that goofy angle, so I was happy. HBK buried, shit and pissed on the grave of Sable on a Raw just prior to her filing her big Sexual Harrassment suit in 99. (Ok, it wasn't that extreme, but it always made me laugh) This irked the hell out of me at the time, but ECW buried the hell out of Tazz after he signed to WWF. I never really understood that...they gave him this big send off when he lost the belt and then proceeded to make him look like a bitch for the next to months, so much so that what would've been a big money match against RVD was meaningless. Then, of course, there was the Mike Awesome deal in 2000 where they had to bring Tazz back to put the belt back on him. Austin after the 02 walk out. Finally, and I never hear this brought up much, but there was actually a very subtle burial of Bret leading up to Survivor Series 97. Basically, they began running these vingettes about Owen, calling him the REAL Hitman of the Hart Foundation, highlighting the injuries he had given to HBK and Austin as proof.