Shanghai Kid

Well actually I was just talking about America since I pretty much lack any extensive knowledge on Puro and all non North American wrestling. I'd like to see your list for just American matches.

Yes and YOUR opinion is more valid than theirs? We're talking about wrestling, so why would you completely disregard what some of the BEST wrestlers have to say about it?

1993- vs Marty Jannety 1994- Ladder match with Ramon 1995- vs Jeff Jarret 1996- vs Bret Hart, vs Mankind (both were big contenders) 1997- vs Undertaker (Bad Blood), vs Austin (king of the ring) 2004- vs Benoit/HHH 2005- vs Kurt Angle, vs Benjammin You don't think those are arguable? Please list your MOTYs for those years. I know PWI voters at the time had him win in 93/94/96/97

That's the problem with this board. If your a fan of Shawn Micheals ringwork it makes you a fanboy, and yet if you don't like HBK your an "unbiased fan whose only telling the truth and setting the fanboy straight". Right. HBK had arguably the match of the year for 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 2004, and 2005. Nobody has a problem with talking about his negatives. Calling somebody a 'fanboy' cause they think he's a great worker is being a jackass. Nobodys opinion is fact, but from everything I've read the overall consensus from wrestlers/managers/fans is that HBK is a great worker and one of the all time greats at least in the WWE. The guy has a killer catalogue of quality matches under his belt. Shawn's kip up is like some else said a burst of adrenaline and a way to start his comeback. Faces make comebacks and defeat the odds. If it's bad storytelling why are the fans so into his matches? Shawn getting beat up by the big guy and still coming back and winning is a story that he tells to perfection with great bumping and solid timing on his comeback. When he's a heel he still does it perfectly. Guys like Austin/Foley/Flair/ and even BRET have said Shawn is a good/great worker. That holds more weight than anything we can say. And I'd definetly like to see someone put up HBK's top 20 matches vs Austins or Brets, and I think they'd hold up pretty well.

In a nutshell. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Prove it

I'd say HBK wins that contest. Only the most hardcore Sabu fans would call him a great worker. Michaels, on the other hand, is rated too highly by people who even aren't huge fans of his. I really enjoy his work myself, but he's not the best as some fans will claim. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Maybe you've been living under a rock, but HBK is incredibly underrated on this board.

I think you kind of botched HBK's top 10. Here's what I think more people would go with- 1. vs Razor Ramon WM10 (Groundbreaking Match) 2. vs Mankind Mind Games 3. vs Undertaker BB (Another Groundbreaking match) 4. vs Bret Hart WM 12 (Brets favorite match and very underrated on this board) or SS 92 5. vs Kurt Angle WM 21 6. HBK/Diesel vs Razor/1-2-3 Kid from Action Zone 94 7. vs Marty Jannetty Raw 93 8. vs Diesel Good Friends Better Enemies or WM 11 9 vs Jeff Jarret In your House 2 10. vs Austin King of the Ring 97 or Wrestlemania 14 Austins best matches are with Bret Hart, Chris Benoit, and Kurt Angle. HBK had classic matches with guys like Diesel, Undertaker, and still had the versatility to wrestle speedy guys like Jannetty/Angle/Jarret. Not that the top 10 means anything, I'm willing to bet HBK has more quality matches over his career than Austin and with a vast more different list of wrestlers. Remember HBK pulled good matches out of everybody, guys like Sid, Diesel, Bulldog. I'm betting if you go further and make a list of each wrestlers top 25 matches, HBKs list would destroy Austins.

Well, I'm sure HHH considers himself this era's Flair. Steve Austin did not have a long enough stay on top to be compared to Flair. And he wasn't that great after all the injuries. Interestingly enough, Austin has wrestled Bret in some of his best matches, and yet Austin thinks Flair is the greatest of all time. I'm sorry but you have to value that thought over what anybody on here says. Correct me if I'm wrong, but HBK had PWI's Match of the Year for 4 years straight from 93-97, some people think 1996 wrestling wise Shawn may have been the best worker in America. If HBK wrestles for another 5-6 years, he may be able to put together a catalogue of quality matches that few can touch. Also HBK basically took 4 years off and still came back pretty damn good. If he didn't' get injured and had kept wrestling I suspect his catalogue would already be among the best ever. As is, as far as WWF history goes I definetly think he has the resume to say that he's up there among the best of all time. And Flair himself has said that HBK is one of the all time greats.

Honest question- From the perspective of a wrestling fan, what should be more important? The financial and political situations of 1996 and how that relates to Shawn Micheals, or the fact that he was putting on great matches all through out the year? I'm not too enamored with backstage politics and smarks acting like they know the wrestlers personally and going to as far as to assume what their thinking. Then again I know if your on an in internet wrestling site your here to read about all the politics and backstage gossip, cause thats just the world we've become addicted too. Anyways, I can definetly understand HBK hate. He didn't draw and did some shitty things. Make no mistake, Benoit is not as charismatic as Shawn, if we're assuming things theirs no reason to think Benoit would of drawn in 96. The WWE was depleted and coming off Diesels disasterous run. Still, how important is it to you as a wrestling fan that he didn't draw? Cause some people are kind of acting like it's the be all/end all, as if that double standard doesn't apply to other smark darlings who haven't drawn. I look back at Shawn's career and I go "ha, the asshole didn't draw, screw him, his legacy is tarnished". No, that's what some of the posts in this thread seem like. I think the whole Shawn vs Hogan feud was built around the idea that Hogan is a much bigger draw/star while Shawn is just out here putting on good matches every week. And that's how I look at Shawn, as a great wrestler whose put on classic matches for over a decade. Of course you take politics into account, but it's true ALOT of guys have done it, Hogan/Flair/HHH/Angle, it's just the nature of a main eventer doing what he has to do to stay on top. For me at least I can only go by what I see not what I read, and what I see is good matches. I know willingly or not he's jobbed on the two biggest shows this year clean. He's definetly not making any attempts at dominating the World Title picture. No, he's just going out there and putting on solid matches. Would people rather Shawn not be involved with the WWE?

What about Bret/Piper from Mania 8? I'd definetly like to have that on DVD. Also, I hope they cover his feud with Jerry Laweler at least a little bit, it was basically a 2 year feud.

I agree with whoever said that their is no Rock or Austin in the making. Cena? I think he's pretty much hitting his apex, I think what you see is what you get and barring some really great booking I don't see him getting much more popular. He already has the belt so where's the drama? I guess he's going to get screwed out of the belt and win it back at Mania but thats all too predictable. I'm sure they'll put him over Angle/HBK/ and than HHH. I would just keep HBK heel and give him the belt. You want a face chasing the belt going into Wrestlemania, so build someone up in the same way you did Batista and have him beat HBK at Mania for the title.

How did Shawn destroy Hogan on the mic? If it was so good, the fans wouldn't have booed the shit out of him--and he definitely wasn't trying to get heel heat at first. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually Shawn has been getting the best kind of reaction, at least up until Hogan spoke last night. He got not cheers, but fans clapping, as in they respected what he was saying. The idea that he was trying to be the face is stupid, look at the outcome, he superkicked Lawler and than Hogan beat him up and out of the ring, which is what Hogan does to heels. My whole take on Shawn's 'character' right now is that he's a heel but he's not a full fledged heel. He's doing and saying heel stuff but he hasn't turned on his fans. The fans only really started giving him legit heel heat when Hogan mentioned Bret Hart.

Yeah, Hulk Hogan is definetly not a guy you can just turn the fans on. Theirs a few select guys in the buisness who will get cheered no matter how the booking is. Hogan is at the top of that list, particuarly at this stage of his career. It doesn't have to be about drawing power or current popularity either. It's about how much the fans respect what that person/character has done. Hogan and Flair right now are guys who would probably get cheered against anybody in the ring cause of their status. I don't get the same feel with Austin or Rock. And ya damn right Hogan would get cheered over Austin. Oddly enough, another guy who I couldn't see the fans turning on is Sting. He, like Hogan, has one of those timeless characters that your always going to remember and respect.

Conway has the goofiest entrance music of all time. The crowd is literally just laughing at him.

Edge has really put it into perspective how much of a loser Matt Hardy is. Naw but that was a great promo, Matt Hardy who should be the one whose angry can't even come close to that.

Sorry guys, I think my "what is Shelton's potential' thread totally jynxed his career. I can't explain how far the guy has fallen in the last few weeks.

Oddly enough, I totally would mark for an HBK/Angle team. And I don't understand Hogan coming out. Did they really think Angle wasn't going to get cheered in his hometown?

That is the big match they are wanting to do, so Hogan should win. And he will win. Shawn doesn't need to win, because he can stay over no matter what, so he isn't going to. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think it depends on if they want to keep Shawn heel or not. If he's going to turn back face right after the match than him losing is no problem. If they want to keep him heel and maybe have him feud with Cena he needs to win. I don't really see where Shawn would go from here if he loses. Hulk isn't a full time worker, nor do I think even the most hardcore Hogan fan believes that at this stage of his career he's a great wrestler. He'll probably dissapear until Wrestlemania. From a storyline perspective, HBK does lose alot of credibiilty if he loses to a 50 year old who only wrestlers once every couple of months. And the whole program has been centered around HBK, in the same way that Angle/Shawn from Wrestlemania was centered around Angle.

Aren't you against breaking kayfabe, though? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah I'm against it when it's done stupidly with no point like the Matt Hardy promo.

Shawn with 2 money promos two weeks in a row. He's definetly at the very least gotten some fans over to his side. That was very funny though.

And the car accident thing was also stupid and overboard. But the angle has such a big plot hole. If Matt knows the Lita/Kane thing is scripted, why the hell does he think he's getting any kind of real revenge in a match vs Edge that will also be scripted? He's pretty much admitted wrestling is fake, and than he goes into what is essentially a scripted heel promo promoting a fake match. The feud has lost lots of steam now. Matt talking about killing people? WTF?

I'm sorry but how f'ing stupid is it for him to expose the whole Kane/Lita/Edge feud after they JUST showed highlilghts of that earlier on. If Matt realizes this is all just a TV show than why the hell would he think he's really getting revenge on Edge in what will be a scripted match with fake wrestling? Thats just stupid, no reason for it. This angle is typical WWE now, no more surprises.

All that just for friggin Mart Hardy? Jesus I like Matt as much as anyone...but after this feud is done NOBODY will care about him.

Sad, Vince has lost all his heel heat. I don't know when the fans started loving the guy, but it proves that even the most evil heel can eventually be loved.

Even if you don't like Warrior, does anybody really want to see a negative DVD of him? We all know Warrior is a psycho, but he DOES have fans who would probably rather just nostaligically see some positive stuff. I may think the guy is nuts now, but I definetly have some fond memories, mainly headlining Wrestlemania, that I won't forget. And yes, he does have fans. I know alot of guys who don't watch wrestling now but remember the Ultimate Warrior. I think WWE would be shooting themselves in the foot sales wise if they make a 'self destruction of the Warrior" dvd.