humanoid92
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AL MVP
1. Justin Morneau
2. Derek Jeter
3. David Ortiz
4. Jermaine Dye
5. Travis Hafner
6. Frank Thomas
7. Joe Mauer
8. Jim Thome
9. Ivan Rodriguez
10. Grady Sizemore
NL MVP
1. Albert Pujols
2. Ryan Howard
3. Carlos Beltran
4. Lance Berkman
5. Miguel Cabrera
6. Jose Reyes
7. David Wright
8. Alfonso Soriano
9. Chase Utley
10. Andruw Jones
AL Cy Young
1. Johan Santana
2. Roy Halladay
3. Wang
NL Cy Young
1. Brandon Webb
2. Roy Oswalt
3. Chris Carpenter
AL Manager of the Year
1. Jim Leyland
2. Ron Gardenhire
3. Ken Macha
NL Manager of the Year
1. Joe Girardi
2. Grady Little
3. Phil Garner
AL Rookie of the Year
1. Justin Verlander
2. Jonathan Papelbon
3. Francisco Liriano
NL Rookie of the Year
1. Hanley Ramirez
2. Ryan Zimmerman
3. Dan Uggla
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Depends on your perception. '98 WCW and '02 WWF may have had a really impressive list of names, but in wrestling it may be a case of too much of a good thing. The roster was too saturated. Hence WCW's three hour TV shows twice a week and huge stables. And the WWF extending into two brands and throwing the likes of Flair and Hogan into major programs just for their name value. At the same time they were trying to push Brock to the moon and re-establish HHH, Flair, Hogan, Nash, Hall, etc. were pushed into major programs, and the result was guys like Jericho, Angle and RVD getting lost in the shuffle. In wrestling, it doesn't necessarily pay off to have such a huge, bloated roster.
I agree that name-value wise, it's hard to beat '98 WCW, '02 WWF, or '91 WWF. But as far as a truly loaded AND balanced roster, I think 2000 WWF takes the cake. You had the proven main eventers like Rock, Austin, Taker and HHH. Then the guys that looked like they could step up at any moment in Jericho, Angle and Benoit. A really solid midcard with Eddie, X-Pac, Rikishi, Val, Malenko, etc. Kane and Big Show weren't completely stale yet. The tag division was very deep with Edge & Christian, Hardyz, Too Cool, Outlaws, APA, Dudleys, etc. Pretty well rounded and it was loaded but not quite to the point of being bloated.
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For Flair, it's always been the Savage match at WM 8. One of my favorite matches ever. I like to think of it as perfect chaos.
This got me thinking of my favorite 1 on 1 Bret matches. I think I'm going with this for my top ten:
10) Bret vs. Razor, KOTR 93
Underrated match. As solid of a 10 minute match as you'll find.
9) Bret vs. Austin, SS 96
Longer match than I expected at the time. Even though Bret won, I think this put Austin over huge.
8) Bret vs. Diesel, KOTR 94
Their workrate may be better in their other two PPV matches and Nash was still pretty terrible at this point, but I love the storyline with Neidhart and Shawn's constant interference.
7) Bret vs. Bulldog, IYH 5
Awesome match and very different than Wembley. I'm not sure anyone thought Bulldog had a chance though.
6) Bret vs. Perfect, KOTR 93
Legitimately could have gone either way. Even though it was the semifinals, this was essentially for the crown. The pre-match interview, followed by Perfect going heel in the match, Bret's bump to the railing and the out of nowhere finish are all... well, perfect.
5) Bret vs. Shawn, WM 12
I've defended this one a million times before and my explanation can be found elsewhere on the forum. Simply put, I love that this match went down the way it did. Even though I was pissed Shawn won at the time and the overtime thing was bogus, I like that there was only one fall the entire time. And I honestly don't feel that the slower beginning is boring. I think it's completely logical and well done. The match builds beautifully, which is a testament to both guys. And how exactly could anyone put over Shawn for the title in a more meaningful way? Main event of Wrestlemania, face vs. face, one hour match, wins it clean with the superkick in the middle, all by outwrestling the top wrestler in the world, his old rival, and 3 time Champ. Can you think of a better way to win the Title?
4) Bret vs. Owen, SS 94
By far my favorite Cage match ever. Usually Cage matches suck. This one was exciting and full of athleticism. And given Owen's win at WM, his KOTR win, the fact that it wasn't the last match (midcard Title matches usually went to the heel), Bret's fever (last time he wrestled with a fever he lost the IC Title), and the fact that all it takes to win a Cage match is to climb out, it seemed like Owen had a legitimate shot to take the gold.
3) Bret vs. Bulldog, SS 92
When you break it down move by move, it's just really solid and not spectacular but to me this match is all about the aura. The brother in law storyline and the setting of the match in Bulldog's backyard was beautiful. It hadn't been done before. And the fact that the IC Title match went on last was a great surprise. Great environment, with the dark sky after most of the matches going on in the afternoon. This just had the feel of a classic. Bret looked so cool walking down that big aisle. This match made him. And the match itself is really good. Still one of my favorite finishing sequences ever, with Bret hooking the sharpshooter as both guys lay knocked out after a double clothesline. I love the finish with Bulldog sitting down on the sunset flip. A lot of my favorite matches end with pinning combinations rather than a big finishing move.
2) Bret vs. Piper, WM 8
Just a classic example of simple, yet effective storytelling. Not Bret's best match workrate wise, but the interview and intra-match storyline are a thing of beauty. It doesn't hurt that Gorilla and Heenan are at their best on commentary during this one. Really innovative finish as well. If you agree that this is an awesome match then you already know what I'm talking about and if you don't care for it then nothing I can say will convince you it's great. This is one of those matches you either get or you don't.
1) Bret vs. Owen, WM X
As was mentioned, this made Owen into Bret's equal. In just 20 minutes, 2 years of jobbing and being viewed as a lower card guy were erased forever. I love everything about this match. So many things culminated and yet began at WM X. The storyline of Bret getting screwed at WM 9 and finally getting another real Title shot, as well as the Hart Family dysfunction that began at Survivor Series. Everything surrounding this from mid 93 to mid 94 was booked so beautifully. Watching WM X live I had no idea this would be the first match. It was so surprising and exciting to see this open the show. This match combined with the last match of the show made Owen a star and solidified Bret's status as a legend all at once. Brilliant stuff, and again, I like the pinning trap combination. You can say it's out of nowhere, but really it's not, as it made perfect sense for Bret to try the victory roll- he had won several matches with it in the past. No pulling the tights or feet on the ropes either. Owen took this one cleanly.
The unique thing about Owen's elevation here is that something like this can't possibly be duplicated. An Owen win here was A HUGE upset because his position on the card as a singles wrestler in the WWF had never been anything but a level above jobber whereas Bret was the #1 guy. But because they were brothers it also didn't seem that farfetched that Owen could outwrestle him since he knew him so well and was so similar by definition of being his brother. And it was clear that although Bret was the better technical wrestler, Owen was no slouch in that category and was by far the better arial wrestler. So even though their status on the card was miles apart, after Owen actually won it was extremely justifiable to see why he won. This simply can't be replicated. More modern upsets like Jeff Hardy vs. HHH and Rey Mysterio in the Rumble have nothing on this. It's hard to elevate someone that highly that quickly without it seeming out of place or completely random, like it did with Bradshaw a couple years ago. This instantly shot Owen from bottom of the card to top of the card and somehow didn't feel the slightest bit out of place. And these days upsets are so meaningless and frequent that they've lost all meaning. Heading into the Rumble each year now, it's hard NOT to expect the little guy or the veteran or the underdog or the guy drawing #1 to win it all. But upsets like that didn't happen much in those days. The best thing about this match is the way that it was a shocking, major upset and yet made perfect sense and was totally believable at the same time. Nobody thought Owen had a chance in hell at the beginning but by the end of the match you felt like it wasn't a fluke and he could do it again. The work in the ring matched the storyline perfectly. Bret was reluctant to fight his brother but got into it more after Owen provoked him. The fact that it was such an evenly wrestled match throughout really put over Owen's ability as Bret's equal.
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I think there are two ways to look at this. Classics like Savage/Flair and Bret/Piper that we all know are awesome but get lost in the shuffle for whatever reasons and matches that certainly aren't classics but are really good and get overlooked altogether, like say, Shawn/Tatanka.
Some of these have been mentioned already, but here's my list:
- Can Am Connection vs. Muraco & Orton, WM 3
So glad this was mentioned. It may not be a **** match but it's the perfect tag team opener. Couldn't compliment the card better.
- Twin Towers vs. Rockers, WM 5
Awesome fat guys vs. quick guys tag match.
- Barbarian & Haku vs. Rockers, WM 7
Awesome slow guys vs. quick guys tag match.
- Bret vs. Piper, WM 8
I think this is damn near a perfect match. Unbelievable storytelling. This is what wrestling is all about. Everything here is gold, from the pre-match interview to set up the storyline, the commentary to Piper playing dirty, Bret's bladejob, the ref bump, the finish and the post-match.
- Savage vs. Flair, WM 8
So much drama and chaos. One of the most chaotic scenes ever in wrestling (before the Attitude era made nonsense like cops and random vehicles the norm). Heenan, Flair, and Perfect are, well... perfect. And Savage is more than insane enough to pull off his end. It's interesting, because much like Bret/Piper, if you just go back and watch the match, the workrate itself isn't anything mind-blowing. Yet every time I see it I still can't help but think it's anything below five stars. Both WM 8 matches are classic cases of using drama and storytelling to turn less into more.
- Tatanka vs. Michaels, WM 9
Really solid match that could have easily gone 25 minutes. It was paced flawlessly and the storyline with the undefeated Tatanka having beaten Shawn twice (in a six man tag and a non-title match) was good. Shawn had previously separated his shoulder, so Tatanka went right to work on it. Lots of good psychology here, and great bumping from Shawn. Also have to mention my favorite Shawn move, the flying lefty clothesline from the apron to the floor. Cheap ending but the only way to protect the undefeated streak and Shawn's title. Could have done without Luna and Sherri being involved, but still a forgotten great match.
- Yokozuna vs. Bret, WM 9
Only a 10 minute match instead of the 30 that WWF Magazine claimed. Way better than the WM 10 match. They got over the story of the match very well, as Bret smartly used his speed and brains to his advantage but Yoko was simply to much. A lot of unique offense from Bret in this match, as he had to deal with such a large opponent. The way they worked in the exposed turnbuckle is a favorite of mine. And while Yoko looked good with all the big offense and winning in a relatively short match despite never attempting his finisher, it still protected Bret in that he somehow actually applied the sharpshooter and lost thanks to Fuji. Everything after the match I consider a separate issue.
- Money Inc vs. MegaManiacs, WM 9
Not that this one is a classic or anything, but it had a certain old school feel to it, with the Jimmy Hart storyline, Hogan's mysterious eye injury, Beefcake's mask, the faces controlling large portions of the match, Money Inc's countout tease, the mask as a weapon, the brick in the briefcase, etc. Underrated tag match that I think gets a bum deal just because it's Hogan and the role he played later in the show.
- Savage vs. Crush, WM 10
I'd never seen anything like it before. Unique stipulation for the time, and I like the fact that the loser of the fall had 60 seconds to return to the ring, unlike the hardcore matches that followed in later years that were just mindless chaos. Nice touch early on in this one with Crush dropping Savage on the guard rail in the aisle (a la Monday Night Raw) and scoring the quick pin. Good blowoff to an underrated feud.
- Razor vs. Jarrett, WM 11
I love this match. Maybe I'm just a mark for Jarrett, but I love his first WWF run. Just some solid wrestling and sound psychology here. Not as good as the Rumble match but still good.
- Owen & Yokozuna vs. Smoking Gunns, WM 11
A mystery partner that didn't disappoint and some fun action. Both these teams are pretty underrated. And it started one of my favorite subtle storylines that was never completed but was still a great concept. With the in-ring feud between Bret and Owen over, Owen vowed to accomplish everything Bret had. He had already won KOTR, and now he won the Tag Titles (with one of Bret's previous rivals to boot). He did eventually go on to win the IC Title... it all should have culminated with him winning the WWF Title eventually, but whatever.
- Bret vs. Backlund, WM 11
With all the WM 11 mentions you'd think I love that show. I really don't. I think it's better than it gets credit for but it's a pretty average WM. Still there are several matches that don't get enough love and this is one of them. Not one of my favorite Bret matches but still a good match. And you've got to love Piper as the ref.
- Shawn vs. Diesel, WM 11
Shawn bumped like crazy. I like the dynamic here, with Shawn as the cocky cool heel on the rise and Sid as the new bodyguard. A lot of people think the face/heel dynamic is screwed up here but I like that it's different. It would be too cliche to have Shawn as the gutsy smaller underdog babyface, and besides, he's too good of a heel to turn the tables around like that. Everyone thought Shawn was going over here, especially with the midcard positioning. Really good match with a legitimately buyable false finish and Shawn comes up just short. These days they would have put the belt on him right away, but back then they waited so that it meant so much more when he finally won it. For the record, I like this match more than their highly-praised IYH match in '96.
- Undertaker vs. Diesel, WM 12
Really good big man vs. big man match.
- Bret vs. Shawn, WM 12
Most smarks seem to hate this match. It's awesome. I've written about this at length on this board before so I don't want to get into it all again. But given the general smark feelings about this match, I feel it's underrated.
- Jericho vs. Benoit vs. Angle, WM 2000
Goofy rules aside, this is one of the few triple threat matches I can ever actually get into.
- Jericho vs. Regal, WM X7
At the time, I was disappointed by this match, yet in a strange way I also find it to be underrated. Sure, with 15 minutes they could have put on a technical masterpiece. But they made the most out of the 7-8 they got. This is one of those instances where I think the match and the place on the card fit the atmosphere of the event perfectly. Much like the WM 3 opener, I just think it meshed well with the rest of the card and even though they were capable of more, I like how this match turned out.
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I'll echo a few that were already mentioned before throwing some new ones out there.
Razor/Diesel is awesome. Shawn's interference makes that match.
Savage/Warrior. WM 7 deserves all the love it gets, but this match is almost as good from a technical standpoint. I love the storyline here... classic Flair, Perfect and Heenan. This is the best build to a face-face match I've ever seen. You just don't see storylines like this anymore.
Warrior/Rude. I agree with everything that was said about this earlier. Amazing pop for the Warrior. You could argue that this was the beginning of the height of his popularity (from here until WM 6).
Busters/Harts. One of my favorite tag matches ever. Totally non-formulaic and the whole non-title issue is great. Again, you don't see stuff like that anymore.
Kid/Hakushi. Solid match.
Others:
Steiners/Bodies. They cram a lot into 10 minutes. Really good match with some flashy double team stuff that wasn't exactly prevelant in the WWF at the time.
Bret/Doink and Bret/Lawler. This whole ordeal was amazing. Perfect storytelling.
Virgil/DiBiase. Virgil winning was really the only acceptable way to justify the feud but he was still viewed as a total jobber and the win was a shocker. Lots of dramatic stuff here with Piper on commentary, the false finish, Sherri's ejection, and the belt coming into play.
Honky/Warrior. Total squash obviously, but a classic moment.
Hogan/Quake. This is one of my favorite Hogan matches ever. Of course I don't like many, but still... The Hogan/big guy formula had been done to death by that point, but somehow Quake made it interesting. Cheap ending but better than the traditional Hogan leg drop finish.
X-Pac/Jarrett. Typical good *** wrestling.
Edge/Storm. Again, standard quality stuff.
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1994 WWF vs. 2001 WWF
This is stretching it a little because some people like the Steiners were only around the first month or two of '94, and some people like the British Bulldog didn't return until the summer. So even though the Steiners and Davey Boy are being used on the '94 roster, they were never actually with the company at the same time. That said...
The Matinee
IRS vs. The Hurricane
Sparky Plugg vs. Crash Holly
Jeff Jarrett vs. RVD
Men On A Mission vs. The APA
Bob Backlund vs. Dean Malenko
Crush vs. Kane
Alundra Blayze vs. Chyna
Doink vs. William Regal
Bam Bam Bigelow vs. Booker T
The Smoking Gunns & Tatanka vs. Too Cool & Rikishi
Kwang vs. Tajiri
Yokozuna vs. The Big Show
The Nightcap
Owen Hart vs. Chris Jericho
British Bulldog vs. Chris Benoit
The Steiner Brothers vs. The Dudley Boyz
Randy Savage vs. Mick Foley
Shawn Michaels vs. The Rock
The Quebecers vs. Edge & Christian
Razor Ramon vs. Eddie Guerrero
Diesel vs. Steve Austin
1-2-3 Kid & Marty Jannetty vs. The Hardy Boyz
Lex Luger vs. HHH
Bret Hart vs. Kurt Angle
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As far as the validity of this is concerned, wasn't Luger supposed to be a legitimately intelligent guy? I remember an article in WWF Magazine talking about how he had a 4.0 GPA in college and I know Jim Ross would mention it on commentary occasionally. That could have been kayfabed, but I don't know why they'd fabricate something along those lines when it's not like his character was supposed to be a genius. Seems to me anyone with those kind of brains would be able to form a clear sentence or two. Of course, the man's also a pro wrestler, so who knows?
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As far as Intercontinental Champions go:
You could make a case that Honky Tonk Man was "undeserving." His reign was successful but at the time he won the belt he hadn't done anything to that point, and the idea seemed to be more about getting the belt off Steamboat than getting it on to Honky.
Even though he was a veteran, Kerry Von Erich's title win came out of left field. None of the WWF fans knew who the hell he was, and a week after his debut he's beating Perfect for the title.
I wouldn't argue that Davey Boy was undeserving, but you could make the case that he really lucked into getting the title because Summerslam was in England and he was related to Bret so there was a built-in storyline. He hadn't exactly been setting the world on fire as a singles competitor before that they knew he was always over huge in Europe so there would be heat. The plan all along was to put the belt on Michaels. They just used Davey for the one big Summerslam match and was never going to be anything other than a transitional champion.
History has proven the Rock very deserving, but at the time he won it, let's just say he was less than electrifying.
Then there's the Russo years and beyond:
Road Dogg
Godfather
Chyna
Billy Gunn
Test
Albert
Why Kane was ever involved with the IC Title was always a mystery to me.
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Bret vs. Owen in a 60 minute Marathon Match (Iron Man) at a house show in July '94. I can't remember all the details, but this has got to be the safe pick. Plus I got to slap Bret's hand and touch the belt afterwards.
Also, Angle vs. Shane at KOTR 01. Total garbage match, sure, but really fun to watch live.
And I remember Diesel vs. Jarrett at a house show the week before the '95 Rumble being really fun. They did a Heartbreak Hotel segment earlier in the night with Jarrett to set it up. Nash was the WWF Champion and Jarrett was only a week away from winning his first IC Title. Throughout the match the Roadie and Michaels constantly ran interference. I was a big mark for A) Jarrett and B) Michaels as a manager (see KOTR 94, Summerslam 94, etc.) Good stuff.
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Well the thing is, the tools are in place to make this new ECW work. I mean as bad as it was last night, Vince McMahon has the resources to make this work. The problem is that his vision of ECW was what we saw Tuesday Night.
With Vince McMahon's resources there really is no reason ECW shouldn't have it's own tapings, really, you could do it at a fraction of what Smackdown costs because ECW fans don't even give a flying fuck about Pyro or a titan tron.
If Vince would just swallow his pride, ego, and crazy idea that he knows what ECW fans want, and listen to Heyman, this could work. Several people on here have laid out a multitude of plans that are easy enough to follow through with, which would produce a better and more compelling ECW product.
Everything you mentioned there is a big part of the problem. The way they're going about it is terrible. The thing is, I happen to think that they shouldn't be going about it all. It's an unnecessary problem they've created for themselves because the concept is so flawed to begin with.
Enough with this weird new self-referential, history-obsessed style of booking. Edge and Foley feuding over "Wrestlemania moments" and who was the better "transitional champion." Cena and HHH arguing about stroke. Hacksaw Jim Duggan and all the "legends" on TV. DX reuniting. Flair and Foley feuding over WCW booking disagreements from 15 years ago. "Dream matches." To me, this ECW revival is just another ugly extention of that type of booking.
The way things are booked now it's as if message board posters from the early days of the internet are writing the show with all these cute nods to wrestling history and rehashing things from past eras (regardless of their degree of orginal success) instead of actually booking a wrestling show.
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The point of this third brand should be to create another set of marketable wrestlers and characters.
1) they need an ECW audience
2) they can't be 'live' because of Sci-Fi's worries so like someone posted, just give them their own tapings or tape house shows in front of 'their' audience
3) it can't be produced and paced like a WWE show, it's one hour, you can't have a ten minute promo, stupid backstage vignettes, pointless T&A (and why the hell wasn't Kelly's bra trauma edited?), 'earlier tonight' video packages and outside arena shots that make it look like Raw and SD.
4) let Joey Styles and Tazz be true to themselves, when they were given that freedom, their commentary stood out on the WWE-ECW special and the ECW PPV
5) it's ok to have this current tie-in with Raw and using guys like Cena (who's actually gained some of his edge back thanks to working ECW) and Edge (who would have fit into the old ECW anyway) but it MUST END and they must debut new faces, create new stars and salvage the careers of those in ECW who are salvageable (Sabu, Sandman, Dreamer, Balls Mahoney, Stevie Richards and FBI)
I agree with all of that.
As for creating another set of marketable stars, I'm with you: that should be a main objective. The thing is, it's clear as day that they're way more interested in rehashing ECW characters from 5-10 years ago. Sandman, Dreamer, Balls, Sabu, etc. They didn't draw any money then. Why should anyone think they will now? This thing is nothing more than a rehash of something that's already failed. Except now it's no longer original, no longer edgy, and has a million internal obstacles to overcome, as has already been discussed.
Like I said, I agree with your 5 points. But my opinion is that even if there's a best case scneario and by some miracle they actually stick to all five of those points and get it right... the result is still what I highlighted in my option #2 earlier. It's still just ECW. It was a regional promotion that didn't make money and has been dead and completely irrelevant for 6 years. And this is a rehash of that. It's like remaking a B-movie but doing it with B-actors all over again.
I especially like your point #5. People are overreacting with the crossover. They had to launch the thing somehow. I don't think the Cena, Edge, Rey stuff has been done perfectly (or even that well), but it's a pretty logical idea as far as trying to get ECW off the ground. As long as it resolves itself, that's fine.
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My take on the ECW thing: they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. There was never any room for a positive result here. They had two choices:
1) Throw a bunch of WWE guys on there like Angle, Big Show, Cena, Edge, etc. The problem with this option is that we're just watching WWE guys under the insulting assertion that it's "ECW." The result is a homoginized product that's stale right off the bat. This makes the whole ordeal no different than the Alliance disaster, and we all know why that failed.
2) Separate it entirely and rely only on the ECW name and RVD, Sabu, Sandman, and old ECW guys to draw. The problem with this option is that... well, it's ECW. There's a reason it was a third-rate regional promotion that went bankrupt in the first place. As passionate as their fans were, there simply weren't enough of them for it to be profitable and survive in the long run.
I like Heyman and all, but this concept was doomed from the start.
Not to mention everything that's being documented about how the whole thing was rushed and there are a million logistical problems they weren't prepared to deal with (the taping schedule with Smackdown, SciFi's interference, the lack of a clear direction, too many WWE writers involved, etc.)
The bottom line is that even though it's called ECW, it's still a WWE funded show featuring WWE wrestlers, written by WWE writers, produced by WWE producers. It's no different than Raw or Smackdown. RVD, Sabu, Justin Credible, Balls Mahoney, etc. are WWE employees. Vince McMahon signs their checks. There is no ECW. There's no new (or returning) promotion. It's nothing more than a third brand. And given the state of the other two brands, combined with the obvious reasons I mentioned above and the obvious problems the rest of you have been pointing out, why should anyone expect this brand to be any different and actually succeed?
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I don't have time to go through all 13 pages on the chance this has been mentioned already, but in case it hasn't, here's a doozy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXyRM3x8Zec...rch=bret%20hart
It's the last 5 minutes of a Bret/Lawler Cage match from USWA in 1993. I know it's Memphis, but there are about a million things that are so bizarre to watch, including:
- Bret playing a heel at the peak of his babyface persona.
- Owen Hart brawling with future buddy Jeff Jarrett.
- Giant Gonzalez aiding the Hart Brothers and giving Bret a high-five.
Weird stuff.
I miss the days when there was more to wrestling than just Raw and Smackdown and a bastardized ECW on national TV every week... 10 years from now you're not going to see any random footage like this from this decade pop up.
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Some people say that the show is about Vince and while I won't argue against it I think that it's just as much about Ari too.
I quote this because I was actually just having a similar discussion with a friend about what the show is really about. He thinks it's all about Vince. My take on it is that Eric is actually the main character. I didn't realize it at first, but everything that happens revolves around him. He's at the center. Sure, the show is about the whole crew, but at the heart of it, everything goes through E.
First off, he's the one that's in the middle of Vince and Ari and has to deal with both of them, which is no easy task since they're completely opposite personalities. It's E's romantic relationships that are always the focus, from Kristin to Emily to Sloan. The other guys may constantly be chasing tail, but Eric has already had several relationships that have been given more attention than any of the others (with the exception being the Mandy Moore stuff... which ultimately led to more problems for Eric than Vince). Even Turtle's character kind of goes through Eric in subtle ways, like when he questions why he doesn't make as much as E and implies that he could do his job.
They explore Eric's backstory more than the others. They all came from nothing and they might mention Vince and Drama's alcoholic father from time to time, but there are constant reminders that Eric is the one with the most to lose. He's constantly being reminded that he's a college dropout and could very well be running a pizza joint if not for his friend's success.
Just look at any episode and it's clear after awhile that Eric has more scenes and more dialogue than Vince.
I don't think the show is about Vince and his movie-star life. I think it's about E and how he finds himself in the middle of this life. His relationship with Vince, his relationship with Ari, and his romantic relationships are all explored more than any other single relationship on the show. He's in the middle of everything. The focus is on him.
Just something I picked up on after getting into the show. I had seen a few episodes here and there and assumed Vince was the main character, but he's really not. This was reinforced when I realized that Kevin Connolly's name is first in the opening credits (and it's not an alphabetical issue). And deservedly so.
Anyway, that said, I definitely second the Ari nomination.
I also second the nominations that have already been handed out to members of Scrubs, The Office, and Arrested Development. Three incredible shows.
It's impossible to single anybody out from AD. They're all brilliant. Arnett, Bateman, Cross, Cera, Tambor... it's all good.
But a few names from the aforementioned shows that I haven't seen mentioned yet:
Kevin Dillon, Entourage: Everything about Johnny Drama cracks me up.
John Krasinski, The Office: My favorite character on the show. I can't picture anyone else making all the Jim/Pam stuff work. The facial expressions at the camera and the way he interacts with Dwight is classic stuff.
Zach Braff and Neil Flynn, Scrubs: Maybe it's just the Jersey thing, but I'm a big Braff guy. I love the JD character, even if they've progressively gayed it up over the years. And Flynn is hilarious as the Janitor. Supposedly he ad-libs a lot of his lines. His presence adds such a great dynamic to the show. His ongoing feud with JD is the perfect comic relief for that setting. Their interaction in Season 1 especially was gold. These days the Janitor gets what's coming to him once in awhile, but in the beginning JD didn't get the upper hand a single time. Funny stuff.
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Random question for anyone that knows or wants to speculate:
Before ONS 2 last night, when was the last time Jerry Lawler and Terry Funk wrestled on the same card?
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Guess what? Rey is associated with WCW too. So is Benoit. And Jericho. And Chavo Guerrero, and Foley and Flair. So what? Why not bring in Hall and Nash and Steiner in and have them all wear WCW t-shirts... I just don't see the appeal, that's all.
Well I also have reason to believe that if they ever had a WCW vs WWE ordeal with a WCW team, that those guys would have a rightful place on the WCW team.
My fucking God, there's no way at all to escape See no Evil.
Well that's fine. My main point is that I don't see the benefit to doing a WWE vs. ECW angle or a WWE vs. WCW angle in the first place for several reasons, but yes, if they're going to do it, the guys they're using obviously make sense... even if guys like RVD, Rey, Foley, etc. have made more of a name for themselves in WWE and have been associated with WWE for longer.
At least we can agree on See No Evil.
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God this is boring. I thought ECW was supposed to be less sports entertainment and more wrestling?
No matter what people think, or even what people want to think, everyone has to realize that no matter what, ECW IS WWE.
Exactly... and I give them props for trying something different but this whole ECW thing is a mess.
I like how the people they've announced as appearing at the PPV so far are as follows:
John Cena- WWE guy
RVD- WWE guy
Kurt Angle- WWE guy
Randy Orton- WWE guy
Tazz- WWE guy
Jerry Lawler- WWE guy
Edge- WWE guy
Mick Foley- WWE guy
Tommy Dreamer- WWE guy
Terry Funk- associated with ECW, sure, but the appeal here is more his coming out of retirement and the Foley/Funk history rather than the fact that he was really an ECW fixture
Rey Mysterio- WWE guy
Sabu- the only non-WWE guy to be seen
So basically this whole ECW thing boils down to "well, we signed Sabu."
I don't understand how this idea is supposed to succeed. The "new" ECW is a bunch of people we've seen on WWE programming for years, and a bunch of scrubs no one in their right mind has ever cared about in the first place (Balls Mahoney? Sandman? Really?).
I can't believe they're going through with this ridiculous idea.
RVD, Tazz, Foley, Dreamer, Funk, Misterio, and Sabu all became popular in ECW before they did it in WWE. Just because they wrestled in WWE does NOT mean they're not associated with ECW. How you could even consider Dreamer more of a WWE wrestler than an ECW one is beyond me.
I know they're associated with it but that was also a long time ago. Why should anyone care about getting to see Foley, RVD, Rey, etc. when they've been a staple of WWE programming forever now? This idea that Rey vs. RVD was an "interpromotional match" is a joke because they're both WWE veterans. If one of them puts on an ECW t-shirt that doesn't mean anything has changed.
RVD will always be associated with ECW, as will Dreamer/Funk/Sandman etc...
It's the truth.
That's like saying someone in the military 20 years ago isn't a military man because 'it was a long time ago'. That's retarded.
I'm not trying to claim that they're not associated with it. Of course they are. I just dont get the appeal in seeing them... we've seen them for the last 5 years on TV every week. Why are we supposed to care now just because they're wearing a different T-shirt?
Guess what? Rey is associated with WCW too. So is Benoit. And Jericho. And Chavo Guerrero, and Foley and Flair. So what? Why not bring in Hall and Nash and Steiner in and have them all wear WCW t-shirts... I just don't see the appeal, that's all.
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Well...it's hard to have guys that are ECW guys...when they haven't run a show in over 5 years.
Well yeah.
Which makes me wonder why they're even bothering.
I just don't like the idea in general. I can understand it only from the perspective of "we're desperate and we better try something drastic." But I really don't see what reviving a bastardized ECW brand will really accomplish. If they couldn't pull off the WCW invasion, I doubt they can make this work.
Maybe it's just because I never really liked ECW in the first place. Maybe it's because I don't like this whole "ode to wrestling history" stuff that saturates the product today.
To me, this idea is just taking all the negative things about the Alliance angle... and judging by this Big Show turn, the nWo.
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God this is boring. I thought ECW was supposed to be less sports entertainment and more wrestling?
No matter what people think, or even what people want to think, everyone has to realize that no matter what, ECW IS WWE.
Exactly... and I give them props for trying something different but this whole ECW thing is a mess.
I like how the people they've announced as appearing at the PPV so far are as follows:
John Cena- WWE guy
RVD- WWE guy
Kurt Angle- WWE guy
Randy Orton- WWE guy
Tazz- WWE guy
Jerry Lawler- WWE guy
Edge- WWE guy
Mick Foley- WWE guy
Tommy Dreamer- WWE guy
Terry Funk- associated with ECW, sure, but the appeal here is more his coming out of retirement and the Foley/Funk history rather than the fact that he was really an ECW fixture
Rey Mysterio- WWE guy
Sabu- the only non-WWE guy to be seen
So basically this whole ECW thing boils down to "well, we signed Sabu."
I don't understand how this idea is supposed to succeed. The "new" ECW is a bunch of people we've seen on WWE programming for years, and a bunch of scrubs no one in their right mind has ever cared about in the first place (Balls Mahoney? Sandman? Really?).
I can't believe they're going through with this ridiculous idea.
RVD, Tazz, Foley, Dreamer, Funk, Misterio, and Sabu all became popular in ECW before they did it in WWE. Just because they wrestled in WWE does NOT mean they're not associated with ECW. How you could even consider Dreamer more of a WWE wrestler than an ECW one is beyond me.
I know they're associated with it but that was also a long time ago. Why should anyone care about getting to see Foley, RVD, Rey, etc. when they've been a staple of WWE programming forever now? This idea that Rey vs. RVD was an "interpromotional match" is a joke because they're both WWE veterans. If one of them puts on an ECW t-shirt that doesn't mean anything has changed.
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God this is boring. I thought ECW was supposed to be less sports entertainment and more wrestling?
No matter what people think, or even what people want to think, everyone has to realize that no matter what, ECW IS WWE.
Exactly... and I give them props for trying something different but this whole ECW thing is a mess.
I like how the people they've announced as appearing at the PPV so far are as follows:
John Cena- WWE guy
RVD- WWE guy
Kurt Angle- WWE guy
Randy Orton- WWE guy
Tazz- WWE guy
Jerry Lawler- WWE guy
Edge- WWE guy
Mick Foley- WWE guy
Tommy Dreamer- WWE guy
Terry Funk- associated with ECW, sure, but the appeal here is more his coming out of retirement and the Foley/Funk history rather than the fact that he was really an ECW fixture
Rey Mysterio- WWE guy
Sabu- the only non-WWE guy to be seen
So basically this whole ECW thing boils down to "well, we signed Sabu."
I don't understand how this idea is supposed to succeed. The "new" ECW is a bunch of people we've seen on WWE programming for years, and a bunch of scrubs no one in their right mind has ever cared about in the first place (Balls Mahoney? Sandman? Really?).
I can't believe they're going through with this ridiculous idea.
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God, if I was a young kid right now and this was the product that we had to deal with, I doubt I'd be much of a wrestling fan at all. I have a nephew who is a big fan and he's 15 years old, but since I've been around to tell him who Flair is, tell him about ECW and WCW, and lend him tapes of all of the really good times it hasn't been as bad off for him, and he has a respect for the history of the business.
But for those kids who are just coming into it totally blind, and they start off by watching shit like Vince's ass on TV? I really feel sorry for em and don't blame them at all if they never become real fans and never give a crap about the history.
For all of you guys who are around 22+, would you honestly be watching this product today if you were an early tean or younger and this was your first look at wrestling?
It's hardly possible to even be a hardcore mark anymore as well, so that changes things a lot for the following generations of fans.
This is a very good point. Nowadays, there's no good way for a new fan to get caught up on the history of the business. You can read the internet or browse YouTube all you want, but none of it will make sense without any context. If a fan started watching in, say.... 1992, it would have been easy to catch up on the history of the business because all you had to do was go to the video store and rent all the old tapes. Remember, at that point there had only been 20 or so PPVs ever. You could teach yourself about the Hogan era just from renting most of the tapes at the video store and maybe happening upon a few old magazines that a buddy might have. But at this point it's impossible. There have been hundreds of PPVs, there are major angles on TV all the time, and it's impossible to find old tapes anywhere. Even to catch up on the last 2-3 years, you'd have to sift through, what, 30-50 PPVs? (That's in theory- with the oversaturated product of today most PPVs aren't even that important anymore.) I'm not saying that a fan today has to be 100% familiar with every detail that was going on in 1989, but the whole "developing a knowledge and respect for the business" thing is pretty much out the window.
Of course, this problem is compounded by the fact that the product is no longer an actual show, but rather a show that's ABOUT the product itself. So if you're a new fan and you don't know about Hogan, Flair, Foley, ECW, WCW, DX, the screwjob, Hacksaw Jim Duggan, Kamala, etc. you're screwed. The show is now a tribute to what the business has been in the past. It's completely self-referential. So if you weren't around in the old days, you're lost right off the bat. Up until WCW died, and especially before the Monday night wars, things weren't like that at all. As soon as you were off WWF TV, you were automatically written out of history. It was much easier for a new fan to pick things up because the focus was always on the present day. Now it's the opposite. It's all about playing to their own history. They aren't trying to get new fans... they're just trying to keep the hardcore ones around and lure back people that may have been fans in the past. If I was a kid now, I really don't know that I'd ever take an interest in this stuff.
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I can relate to what NoCal Mike was saying in the original post. At the time of each Wrestlemania, I'm always the same age as the show, meaning I was 10 when WM X went down, 11 on the day of WM 11, etc. And I've always thought I was pretty much the perfect age to be a fan.
When Bret left for awhile after WM 12 and I turned 13, I kind of started to fall out of wrestling a little bit because my favorite guy was gone and I was growing up anyway. But then what does the WWF do? Usher in the Attitude era. So by the time I was 14 or 15, wrestling was "cool" again and had a more adult feel to it. It almost felt like the WWF was growing up with me. That also coincided with me finally getting the internet and discovering the behind the scenes aspect of the industry that I had always known existed.
Then when I was 16-17, it was the best of both worlds. Wrestling was still pretty popular and once Russo left, and Benoit, Jericho, Angle, etc. showed up, the workrate shot through the roof. I loved that era.
Then the wrestling trends followed me once again. When I went to college, I could keep up with it online to an extent, but I wasn't about to watch it on TV a lot and I couldn't order PPVs even if I wanted to. The WWF complied with me by taking a sharp decline. I didn't feel like I was missing out on anything because, well, a lot of it was crap.
By this point, fans my age have seen it all, and it's ingrained enough in pop culture that we can joke about the cliches and reminsce about the glory days all we want, but we don't feel compelled to still actually watch it. And since we're adults now, maybe that's how it should be.
So by that logic, I've always thought fans born in the 1981-1984 range hit the jackpot.
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Things will never be the same again. What's "good" and what's not is always subjective, but I just don't see how anyone born after 1993 will ever have nearly as fun as a wrestling fan experience as us. The business, as it was, is dead.
On a somewhat related note, and I've mentioned something along these lines before, it's mind boggling to me that the WWE is now been stagnant for an unheard of period of time, and no one seems to really notice or care.
Compare how different the rosters, production, format, style, angles, company as a whole, etc. from 1987 were from 1984. From 1990 to 1993. From 1992 to 1995. From 1995 to 1998. From 1997 to 2000. A whole lot of turnover there, right? Compare any of those years to the other one and it's night and day. Well, compare 2002 to 2005 or 2003 to 2006. What exactly is different??? Nothing... they've never stagnated to this extent before and there's really no sign that anything's changing.
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Yeah, my understanding was that it was going to be another year or so. I've read the Martha Hart book and I forget the exact details but I never got the impression that he was only a couple months away from retiring. One especially sad part was that they were all set to move into the dream house in the next couple weeks, but I think Owen still would have been wrestling for at least another year or so. When I suggested him feuding with Jericho or Benoit I did so with the idea in mind that he would have stuck around until the summer of 2000 or so.
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Owen going against Austin at SS 98 would have been oh so lame. Why on earth would anyone think Owen had a shot against Austin? He jobbed to the guy after breaking his neck. Then once Austin got back he basically squashed Owen at S. Series 97. And Austin had actually gotten more popular and dominant in the year after those events.
In the end it is all a matter of money. Austin vs. UT is a much bigger money drawing match than Austin beating Owen's ass.
I think if Michaels was healthy they could have done a throwaway PPV match with him vs. Shawn. Maybe at like No Way Out 98. After that, just go to the Owen/HHH feud. After all, HHH needed someone fairly notable to feud with at that point.
They would have thought he had a chance because in theory, the match would have built up properly, and a major part of the storyline and build up would have been "Whose side is Vince on?" (a la Flair at Summerslam '92). Not to mention the build up that Owen has beaten Austin before (Canadian Stampede), broken his neck, Austin was Bret's biggest rival and responsible for his downfall, and that Owen became a star in MSG, that he's trying to gain revenge for his brother after the screwjob, and there had been a sublte ongoing thing for years that he was trying to accomplish everything Bret did (KOTR, 2-time Tag Champ, 2-time IC Champ) and the WWF Title was the last piece of the puzzle. It's the culmination of the Bret/Owen, Harts/Austin, Harts/Vince, and Austin/Vince (well not the culmination, but a major part of it) stories all at once.
You're assuming that in the real world, if things had happened the way they had except they'd thrown Owen into the main event of Summerslam, it would have seemed random and one-sided. You're right. But that's not what I'm proposing. In my scenario, there would have been a slow build up to this, and Owen would have been pushed into this position steadily and strongly after the screwjob. And he'd be coming off a high profile Title match with Michaels at the Rumble. He would have been accepted as a main eventer, not just some midcarder that walks into a Title match at Summerslam. If it had been promoted properly, it would not be hard to present it as an even match.
If you read my posts, you'll see I admit that it's a matter of money and they weren't incorrect to do what they did. I'm not saying they never should have done Austin vs. Taker. But they could have done that at any point. Either during the spring when they were actually running Austin vs. Kane or in the fall after Summerslam. And in fact, they did do that at many points in time, since they had boring rehashes of that feud in 1999 and again in 2001. In a vacuum, Austin vs. Taker will always be the bigger money match. But given the timing and circumstances, you're not going to convince me they couldn't have run with the Owen thing at that point. Maybe not all the way until Summerslam, but for a few months after the screwjob it definitely would have worked. Read my comments about the show-within-a-show complex. If the WWE operated the way it did now back then, there's no way we wouldn't have seen it explored on TV more prominently.
The Survivor Series '97 squash is a much better argument than your Summerslam one which is a major stretch for reasons I've already stated in my other post. But I still maintain that it could have worked. Again, it's not that they SHOULD have pushed Owen like this. But they COULD have. In the short term, it would have worked fine.
If you could only watch one wrestler
in General Wrestling
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Bret Hart without a doubt.
Although I like the Jericho answer for the sake of being different.