King Kamala

Yeah these drafts tend to be way busier on the weekdays. It's just whipping by whereas this weekend, it was moving like molasses. Ah well. Giant Baba is a heck of a pick at this stage, IMHO. I was thinking about grabbing him one of these last few rounds to combat Andre. Oh well, hopefully there'll be some good big men that will fall down to me next round* I hope this isn't the cue for everybody to start picking big men and leaving me with El Gigante.

Up until very recently I wasn't sure about starting a cruiserweight/junior heavyweight division but when I realized that my next two picks were still on the board and were great building blocks for a solid division, I just had to jump on them. My first pick is an absolute legend and was years if not decades ahead of his time. His influence resonates to this day while I don't think he wrestled much in North America outside of a couple matches, I think his gimmick will get him over big with the kids and his impeccable wrestling skills will get him over with everybody else. He's a two time NWA World Junior Heavyweight Champion and a three time WWF Junior Heavyweight Champion as a well as a member of The Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame. With my 13th pick in the All Time Wrestling Roster Draft, I'm delighted to select... Tiger Mask This next guy is another huge steal IMHO. He's the somewhat unheralded star of the WCW Cruiserweight division. A member of Mexican wrestling's most famous family, he certainly lived up to the lofty expectations of his family name and emerged from his celebrated uncles' shadows. His second WCW Cruiserweight title run was a bright spot in the dying days of the promotion. And while his WWF/E run has been kind of lackluster (especially in the past four years or so), he could do virtually* no wrong in Turner-land. He's a two time WWE Tag Team Champion, a former ECW Champion, a four time WWE Cruiserweight Champion, a two time former WCW Cruiserweight Champion, and a former WCW Tag Team Champion, he is... Chavo Guerrero Jr *I say virtually because he was part of one of the worst stables in pro wrestling history, MIA but I blame that stable's shittiness on Russo more than any of its members

My older brother's high school girlfriend dated one of the top heels for the local indy before she dated my brother. Kind of creepy. She was 16 and he was like 22/23 at the time. He was a really small guy like 5'7'' tops and 150 pounds but not a terrible worker. Good ol' Frankie Armadillo. Wonder if he's still working somewhere.

Um yeah, cabbage, there is a big difference. X is a borderline Top Five WrestleMania and XIII is a borderline Bottom Five Mania. Let me elaborate; X has two bonafide classics, a virtually flawless match in Bret-Owen and a match that was way way ahead of its time in '94 and helped pave the way for future Mania spotfests in HBK/Razor. Plus you have a nice brawl between Savage and Crush that was basically Savage's defacto WWF sendoff. The rest of the card isn't very good, I grant you that, but none of the other matches are given a substantial amount of time except Yokozuna/Luger (which is admittedly one of the worst World title matches at a Mania). The undercard isn't great but it's kind of forgettable and nothing really screams out "This sucks" besides the one aforementioned match XIII also boasts a classic in Austin/Bret but has maybe one other match that breaks the *** barrier (Chicago Street Fight) and unlike X, the meaningless undercard matches do overstay their welcome. Triple H/Goldust get almost fifteen minutes, the pointless Owen and Davey Boy Smith/Mankind and Vader match goes 16. Their are several really sucky matches including possibly the worst WWF Intercontinental title match to take place at a Mania, the worst opener at a Mania, and the worst main event in Mania history.

Hi folks, welcome to the third part of our six part series, going over the past, present, and future of WrestleMania. Today we're discussing an era of WrestleMania that I think few would describe as their favorites. Thus, we've got one of our grouchiest roundtables yet. It's also one of our most star studded panels yet...so let's introduce them. alkeiper: TSM Moderator. Founder of the WWE 24/7 folder. Hunter's Torn Quad: Long time, former head of the WWE folder. Sensei John Kreese: Leader of The Cobra Kai King Kamala Classic: Once saw a blimp Cheech Tremendous: Newest addition to the TSM moderating staff. King Kamala Classic: Time to o discuss my least favorite era of WM! Alkeiper: yeah, some uninspiring work in here Hunter’s Torn Quad: The cream of the crap, as it were. King Kamala Classic: yeah...two Manias in here that'd go in my Bottom 5...which ones they'll be...well we'll find out WrestleMania XI Alkeiper: Wrestlemania XI is a show that doesn't hold up well over time. Taylor/Bigelow was a treat due to the novelty of a one-off celebrity having a good match. Diesel/Michaels was good but not great. Hart/Backlund was a disappointment.The bigger problem is that the show did not have a big event feel. It was in a minor city and arena, and the celebrities were lackluster. Hunter’s Torn Quad: The main thing I remember from this is having the single worst rendition of the American national anthem in WM history. As for the wrestling, it wasn't that good. Shawn/Diesel was good but not great. Bigelow/LT was acceptable as a novelty, but as a match it was ropey. Everything else was sub-par and easily forgetable. Sensei John Kreese: Wrestlemania XI just shows how weak the WWF roster was at the time. Diesel vs HBK was the only superstar vs superstar match, as all the other top stars (Bret, Taker, Razor) were paired off with midcarders. LT was great for a celebrity wrestler but Vince failed to realize that he wasn't that popular outside of the NY area. I remember back in 4th grade, there was a lot of buzz among my friends (all sports fans, even though I wasn't) about LT wrestling after the angle at the Royal Rumble, but by the time the match rolled around, it was 2 and a half months later and nobody was talking about it. I don't know if that means anything w/r/t the drawing power of the match (though I do know it did a disappointing buyrate) but that's just my personal experience. Diesel vs Michaels was good, but it made Diesel look like a chump for HBK to get a 20-count on him while the ref was out. Piper ruined the Bret-Backlund match, Taker match was bad, and Yokozuna was a lame surprise. They tried to make up for the lack of stars on the roster by loading the show with celebs. Pam Anderson was a good choice, as she was a tabloid fixture due to her marriage to Tommy Lee, but I doubt she made a difference on the buyrate. When you have Pam, do you really need Jenny McCarthy? (For some reason the WWF called her "Jennifer McCarthy" in their promotion of the show despite her never to my knowledge using that name professionally.) I hated JTT back then, but hey, kids loved Home Improvement. Nick Tuturro is perhaps the most surprising and pointless Wrestlemania celeb ever. King Kamala Classic: I think wrestling-wise, this show is the definition of average. Besides Undertaker-King Kong Bundy, there's nothing that stood out and made me say "Wow, that sucked". But on the other hand, there was nothing all that great. As HTQ said, Shawn/Diesel was good but not as good as their future matches would be. Bigelow/LT is the Steamboat/Flair of matfches involving one off celebrities but obviously isn't a super great match otherwise. I seem to remember a lot of matches in the **-*** range on the show (Backlund-Hart, Jarrett-Ramon, Diesel-HBK, and Bam Bam-LT) The overall atmosphere was kind of dreary. Boy oh boy were the celebrity appearances lame. Though I was mildly amused by the one with Jonathan Taylor Thomas and Bob Backlund. Holding WrestleMania in Hartford (no offense to the residents of that fair city) was definitely a low point in the WWF's history. Just terrible. I know the WWF was probably at their low point popularity wise but they couldn't have found anywhere better than Hartford? And hey, wasn't this the WrestleMania where a Special Olympian sang the anthem? HTQ, ya big jerk! Seriously though, the fact that a Special Olympian was singing the National Anthem is pretty indicative of how far the WWF had fallen. I mean, great for the kid but does he have to do it at the biggest event of the year? I'd still say Rockin' Robin was a worse anthem singer though! Cheech Tremendous:. Let me state for the record that Wrestlemania XI is by far the worst Mania they every produced. Whereas WMIX gets a bad rap because of the terrible angle that ended the show, WMXI is totally lackluster from start to finish. There are no great matches or memorable angles. LT-Bam Bam and Diesel/Shawn as the double main events? I'll pass. It may have been the best celebrity match ever, but that's not so much a compliment but a commentary on celebrity matches. Diesel-Shawn was an okay matchup, but Shawn had spent the better part of 18 months doing squat and now we're supposed to buy him as a challenger to a 7' monster babyface champion? Nope. I can't buy that. Everything else on the show is a throwaway. Lex Luger goes from main event to curtain jerker in the span of a year. Ramon-Jarrett is a waste of time, Undertaker does nothing of note and Bret and Backlund have a lackluster follow-up to Survivor Series. Even the venue was terrible. The Hartford Civic Center. Hey Vince, if you're that worried about attendance just do the show at MSG again. That basically sums up my feelings on the show. King Kamala Classic: I got to disagree on it being the worst. There's no doubt that it's a very mediocre 'Mania but it's more forgettable than actively horrible. I wouldn't even put in my Bottom 5. Cheech Tremendous: When it comes to Mania, forgettable is worse than actively bad. alkeiper : I disagree, because I at least get enjoyment from decent work Cheech Tremendous: Depends on what you're looking for, I guess. I'm not a big fan of going back and watching events for decent in-ring work. If I'm popping in an old tape it's because there is a moment or an angle that is special to me. Decent ring work is not enough to keep me coming back. King Kamala Classic: I was just about to say that...Forgettable Vs Actively Bad also basically sums up the what's worse argument beteween Kevin Sullivan's run with the book in WCW in '00 or Vince Russo's WCW runs that we've had on the board occasionally....but we'll get to Russo a little later. And we'll talk about that argument in The Starrcade roundtables series in November! WrestleMania XII Alkeiper: Wrestlemania XII was a very good show. Anaheim provided a suitable venue. Michaels/Hart has some problems but at worst it's a **** match and stacks up among the better broadways in wrestling history. Undertaker/Diesel was surprisingly good. I also liked Piper/Goldust. I got the feeling that they were trying to replicate the Patterson/Slaughter alley fight. While they did not match that, it was a good brawl and Piper's last good bout. The other matches were watchable and the one bad effort in Warrior/HHH clocked under two minutes. Hunter’s Torn Quad: I didn't think too highly of this one. I think Hart/Michaels is overrated to a considerable degre I've detailed in the past why I think it's nowhere near this MotY that it's been called and I'll post it in the thread when this gets posted. Undertaker/Diesel was shockingly good considering the limitations of the gimmick of one participant and the lack of talent of the other. I thought Austin/Vega was ungodly dull, the six-man opener wasn't much better, the Warrior/HHH squash was fine for what it was and Piper/Goldust was a match of two halves. The first part, the brawl, was really good, but the second half was something out of Russo era Raw. It was terrible. This WM was notable for Shawn's big win and the one hour match, but other than that, I didn't think there was much, if anything, of note or that you need to see again. Sensei John Kreese: XII was a good show. Two big matches that fans wanted to see on top. A lot of people criticize the Iron Man match for going an hour without a fall, but at the time, neither Hart nor Michaels had been pinned on TV in almost a year. At a time when both guys were super-protected, to take a fall in the middle of the match would have trivialized the moment. It wasn't a classic match, but I like it. Undertaker-Diesel was a good power match, and certainly Taker's best Mania match of the 90s. The Warrior squash was...well, a Warrior squash. It was exciting at the time. The debut of "Marc Morrow" was a nice surprise. I liked the first half of the Piper-Goldust fight. Piper smashing the car window was cool. The "in the ring" portion was the most intentionally gay wrestling match of all time. Dick grabbing, guys kissing, a man in lingerie...what's not to love? I was a devoted WWF fan at the time, and this show delivered what I wanted from them. King Kamala Classic: I've only seen this show twice (once when it was first released on VHS and once about eight years ago) so forgive my memory for being foggy...I remembere there was an odd period where I really disliked this show. I don't think it was ever one of my least favorites but I remember at one point claiming I liked XI better than it (yikes!) but thinking about it over the past week, this isn't a bad show at all. Not one of the great WrestleManias or even one of the very good ones but an admirable effort given the roster at the time. Michaels/Hart I always found sort of overrated and I really hated the fact that a 60 minute Iron Man match had no pinfalls but I'd still put it in the **** range. At the time, Diesel and 'Taker was one of the most shockingly good matches of all time. I don't think 'Taker had had a good match in the WWF up to that point and Diesel had never had a good match with anybody not named Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart. I remember Savio/Steve Austin being pretty good but my memory could be off there since I haven't seen that match since I last watched the show. Piper/Goldust is a bit goofy but the first half of the match is a hell of a lot of fun. The opener is harmless enough and I never really got why people complained too much about The Warrior squash. It only lasted a minute, I marked out when I first watched it when I was 8 or 9...I think it served its intention of reintroducing The Warrior as a force to reckon with. Unfortunately, his run didn't pan out like everyone thought it would and everybody looked like an idiot but hindsight is 20/20. So yeah, decent show...not great but decent Cheech Tremendous: Rating this show is difficult because it is truly a one-match show. If you like the main event, you like the show and if you don't, well there's not much else to save it. I personally don't care much for the Iron Man, both in terms of this match and the gimmick itself. I've never quite understood why they felt the compulsion to book that gimmick. Were they really that worried about selling Bret-Shawn as a main event match on its own? The entire pacing of those matches is counterintuitive to a babyface seeking his first world title win against a hated rival. I don't have much to say about the other matches that hasn't already been covered. Diesel/Taker is great given the personnel involved, but Diesel's impending departure was already being rumored at the time and it sort of killed any chance of a heated angle. Warrior's return is great but it didn't really go anywhere long-term. I've noticed that no one has really mentioned the pre-show garbage. Huckster-Nacho Man and the Bodydonnas-Godwinns were both pushed in the weeks leading up to the event, but ultimately were left off the show in favor of the Free For All gimmick they were pushing before the event. Both were quite embarrassing for the company. Finally, has anyone ever noticed the symmetry between the Mania IX and XII main events? In both instances we had a screwy title match after the main event had already ended and neither was followed up because one of the parties decided to go home after the show and have a long vacation. I think one gets a pass simply because its Shawn and not Hogan. Hunter’s Torn Quad The thing not remember about the main event is that it died live. King Kamala Classic: One quick thing I wanted to comment on is that Arrowhead Pond is easily the least remarkable venue to host two WrestleManias. Sensei John Kreese: WWF went there so many times in the late 90s King Kamala Classic: I think my initial problem with the show was that it was built so much around one match. The rest of the card kind of felt like an In Your House card besides Piper and Warrior's returns. Cheech Tremendous: The Arrowhead Pond is still better than Hartford. Sensei John Kreese: Well yeah at least an actual sports team played there King Kamala Classic: Hey man, The Hartford Whalers were still playing at The Civic Center at the time. I think we can all agree though that Hartford is the worst 'Mania venue overall Hunter’s Torn Quad: The Trump Plaza says hi King Kamala Classic: Eh..the crowds were dead but Trump Plaza but I’ve always liked the look of it. Doesn’t really fit a wrestling show but it looks distinguished. Hartford Civic Center is a blah looking venue with a dead crowd. I give it the edge for Worst WrestleMania venue ever. alkeiper: the Trump Plaza was the worst IMO, it looked like an oversized ballroom. At least Hartford was equipped to hold a wrestling show. Sensei John Kreese: I liked the steps of the trump plaza quite a different look but not great for a wrestling show Cheech Tremendous: I thought that there was something unique about Trump. Hartford was just an arena Does anyone know why they went for an Iron Man gimmick? It seems so unnecessary for this match. They could have gone 60 minutes without laying it out beforehand King Kamala Classic: yeah...I don't see why it had to be an Iron Man match...especially since there was only one damn pinfall. Hunter’s Torn Quad: I guess they wanted to make it memorable. Guarantee the match would go an hour King Kamala Classic: it would've still been memorable if it'd went to an hour draw without The Iron Man gimmick. alkeiper: it would've worked better at one fall apiece and Hart winning the first fall, Michaels winning due to the 60 minute stipulation, would let both wrestlers save face. Cheech Tremendous: Technically its a sound match, but good god is it boring King Kamala Classic: yeah, it's not a match that I like to sit down and watch on a regular basis. Cheech Tremendous: remember watching the show live and just hoping someone would get a fall. There was like a 30-minute stretch where nothing of note happens Sensei John Kreese: bret says in his book that shawn and patterson decided on the iron man stip without even consulting him alkeiper Hart/Michaels, match of the night? Hunter’s Torn Quad: Tied with Undertaker/Diesel.For me, anyway King Kamala Classic: yeah Hart/Michaels is the best match probably but Undertaker/Diesel is most entertaining Cheech Tremendous: Best match, but that's not really a compliment. It was a dull show, match wise WrestleMania XIII (Notably deleted from this segment...a discussion over whether Sid crapped his pants during the main event or doing a rehearsal match at a house show leading up to the event leading to a bunch of us making jokes about the 'Taker/Sid match being crap and a discussion of the career of Curtis Hughes!) Alkeiper: this is obviously a one match show. I think we can all agree that Hart/Austin is a classic. The rest of the show is dull and unmemorable for the most part Though the Chicago Street Fight is a decent brawl. Hunter’s Torn Quad: I would concur. Bret/Austin was a classic, the six-man streetfight was surprisingly good, and the rest was completely throwaway. Sensei John Kreese: I wasn't really watching wrestling at the time of XIII, as a newfound interest in music and girls had led me away from my wrestling fandom. I was aware that Sid was champion, but that was about it. That said, I remember watching the end of Superstars on the morning before the show, and as Pettengill or whoever it was went over the card I was thinking "Really? That's the card for Wrestlemania Having caught up with the event and all the Raws leading up to it over the years, I imagine that if I had been watching at the time, I wouldn't have been any more excited. Not everything on the show was bad but everything was weak except for Bret-Austin. I think all that needs to be said about that match has been said over the years, but suffice to say it was amazing and probably worth buying the show for. Taker winning the title was nice, but THREE Bret run-ins during the match was a little much. And Russo wasn't even booking then! Nothing else of consequence happened there, so what's left to say? King Kamala Classic: Austin-Bret is probably in my top ten if not top five favorite of all matches but even that's not enough to save this show from being in my Bottom 5 'Manias. Everything besides that and The Chicago Street Fight (which as everybody has noted is a half decent brawl) ranges from forgettable to outright terrible. Sid-Taker is one if not the worst Mania event of all time and the less said about Rocky Maivia Vs The Sultan is better. Again, this show just feels really dead, like a particularly weak In Your House card in a bigger venue for the most part. First three months or so of '97 was another low point in WWF history. Luckily things would get better soon after but man this is not a good show by any stretch of the imagination. Cheech Tremendous: In what is becoming the theme of the night, this was, once again, a one-match show. There is nothing that I can add to Austin/Hart at this point. It was a classic match, a classic angle and a classic feud. Truly the highlight of 1997. As for the rest: I enjoy the Street Fight in the same way I like the Savage/Crush match at Mania X. It was so unique for what they were doing at the time. Everything else is pure rubbish. The tag and IC title matches go nowhere and had no real build to speak of. Undertaker winning the belt is a nice moment, but it really comes off like they had nothing else to do with the belt. It's a really lackluster finish. I do have to say that I enjoyed the build to this show. The drama with the world belt from Survivor Series to Mania was really compelling television at the time, but I have no idea how it would hold up now. Alkeiper: Undertaker/Sid is probably the worst WM main event ever run Cheech Tremendous: I don't know why Vince thought that would sell. It doesn't even look interesting on paper, let alone in an actual ring Hunter’s Torn Quad: Vince was panicking and when he panics he goes to the big guys Cheech Tremendous: The IC title was really in a rut around this time. They just couldn't figure out what to with the belt from Ahmed's injury to Owen's run in the summer of 97 King Kamala Classic: yeah, along with having the worst WWF World title match at a 'Mania, this show has the Worst Intercontiental title match at a ‘Mania (if not, one of the worst IC title matches of all time). Odd considering that Rock and Fatu would have some pretty decent matches three years later...under very different gimmicks of course and Rocky was much less green. Cheech Tremenedous: The Sultan was a go-nowhere gimmick. I'm shocked that he even made it on the show, let alone a title match with a green as grass Rocky Alkeiper: and likely only thanks to being Samoan probably figuring the Rock could use a familiar opponent Hunter’s Torn Quad: The four-way tag opener was terrible King Kamala Classic yeah, that was a terrible way to open the show also I can't believe I forgot to mention Goldust-Hunter Hearst Helmsley in the Worst Series Ever thread I started some months bacl. It seems like all the matches they produced were ungodly boring and long Hunter’s Torn Quad: Those two worked for months and couldn't get above **1/2 Cheech Tremendous: Neither one could do much at the time, despite other periods of solid work WrestleMania XIV alkeiper: Wrestlemania XIV was well regarded. Almost every match on the card delivered. Austin/Michaels worked a great match despite Michaels' injury, Kane/Undertaker was good, Cactus/Funk/Outlaws was a fun brawl. Taka/Aguila was innovative for WWE at the time and the card was just really well paced Hunter’s Torn Quad I didn't like this WM too much. The tag battle royal was below average. Taka/Aguila was a spotfest that had nothing else to it. Owen/HHH was acceptable. The mixed tag was a couple of good Sable spots and nothing else. Rock/Shamrock was ok. The tag title match was a fun brawl. Kane/Undertaker was terrible. The main event, as a match, was fine but not really above average, however the real story is Austin becoming a star and Shawn working a miracle considering his back was blown out and he probably shouldn't have been wrestling at all. You can see it on his face for almost the entire match that he's in great pain but he keeps going as best he can and manages to not mess anything up. Overall, as a show, not good in terms of quality, but it was strictly designed to launch Steve Austin into the stratosphere as the next superstar in wrestling and it worked better than I think anyone expected. Sensei John Kreese: 14 was another good one. No great matches, although the main event was a miracle considering how messed up Shawn's back was (and Austin's neck for that matter). Stone Cold won clean, Tyson got to punch a guy out. Just what you'd want. Everything just fell into place on this show. Sable got revenge on Luna, Cactus and Funk got revenge on the Outlaws, LOD had a triumphant reunion, Rock continued his reign as undeserving champion, and DX screwed Owen again. The only surprise for me was Undertaker vs Kane; I was sure Kane was going to win, because I figured, as it was with the Mankind-Taker feud, Taker would lose at first to build up to a highly-anticipated rematch. Now, looking back, as they've tried to make "will the streak end?" an important drawing card for every year's Mania, they're lucky they didn't put him over, but at the time, it seemed like it could have/should have gone either way. Tyson was the best use of a celeb I've ever seen in wrestling (they almost always work better as heels), and they got him at exactly the right time. This was a similar situation for me as it was in '95, as the big celebrity angle buzz seemed to have cooled off since the Rumble, but in this case it did a huge buyrate, so I guess I was wrong. The Pete Rose thing was fun but pointless; I suppose it was good for SportsCenter fodder but since Tyson was on the show, they already had SportsCenter clips ready. Gennifer Flowers was just a cheap attempt to capitalize on the Lewinsky scandal, and I doubt it meant anything for publicity. But if not for her, we wouldn't have had "If you smell what the Rock is cookin'", so it all worked out. I wonder why Carrot Top backed out of the show. But then again, I also wonder why he was originally booked in the first place. It's not like Box Office Poison/9 1/2 Seconds/Chairman of the Bored didn't need the promotion. King Kamala Classic: 14, I see as the real coming out party of The Attitude era. No great matches but everything works. A really, really well paced Mania. Cactus and Chainsaw Charlie-The NAO and the main event are thehighlights. Having a hard time thinking of anything on the show that was outright terrible. I don’t think there really was anything though on the same hand, there were no classics workrate-wise. A rare show where pretty much every match seemed to serve its purpose. Not one of the greatest Manias but certainly one of the most important and easily the Best of this era. Cheech Tremendous: Mania XIV is a fun show, but one that I haven't bothered to go back to in quite some time. Shawn-Austin is what it is. The match itself is something of a let down given what those two are capable of, but with Shawn's injury it was the best we could have hoped for. The angle surrounding it is gold and Tyson's involvement was probably the best use of a celebrity ever. The remaining matches all range from above average to good, but none of them are overly memorable. Kane was such a strong character when they first introduced him. He was second from the top less than six months after debuting for the company! That's an amazing turnaround. The dumpster match is a fun brawl, even if Terry Funk's gimmick is totally ridiculous. Owen-HHH was okay, but let's be honest here: he should have been facing Shawn in a grudge match for the Survivor Series incident. A total victim of timing and politics. As for the opener: I really wanted to believe that LOD had one last run in them and Sunny looked great, but the magic really was gone by that point. Jobbing to NOD multiple times just killed them dead and they never recovered. More than anything, I remember this show setting up the next night's Raw, which is still to this day my favorite episode of wrestling television ever. Alkeiper: Michaels’ back injury is poetic justice in a way for all of the times he faked injuries to get out of jobs. Cheech Tremendous: I sort of touched on this earlier, but I wish that the timing would have been a little different so that we could have gotten a proper blowoff to Owen-Michaels King Kamala Classic: The main event really had to be Austin-Michaels though. I think Owen-Michaels would have been better served for Royal Rumble or No Way Out. Cheech Tremendous: It did, that's why I said the timing didn't work out. Hart needed a big win over Shawn but you can't do that while building to Mania and Austin's first big win. Also, let me go ahead and admit one of my darkest secrets: I thought Austin was going to crash and burn as WWF Champion. King Kamala Classic: wha? Really? Do explain Cheech Tremendous: I didn't see him as the type of babyface that could carry a promotion on his own and I didn't that there were any heel characters for him to play off of. Little did I know that Vince would fill that role perfectly. Sensei John Kreese: i was hoping for kurrgan to be built up as a challenger to austin's title King Kamala Classic: I can definitely see that line of thinking. To tell the truth, I was actually a bit befuddled that Corporate Dude Love was his first challenger for the first week or so of that feud. Cheech Tremendous: Even to this day, I think Austin gets a bit too much credit for the success of the Attitude era. DX, Vince, the Rock and Sable all played an integral part in this company becoming the late 90s juggernaut King Kamala Classic: I agree. He’s an integral reason for The Attitude Era’s success but it was really a case of a lot of guys pitching in, various ways, to make it big. Hunter’s Torn Quad: I don't Cheech Tremendous: And why is that? Austin had the benefit of being booked on top when the shows as a whole were outstanding. He definitely succeeded in that position, but I'm not convinced that they couldn't have done it without him. Look at 2000 for an example. Hunter’s Torn Quad I think the dynamic that turned things around was Austin and his playing off of the evil Mr McMahon character. I think that, as much as a major supporting role the others played, ultimately, it was down to Austin that things turned around Alkeiper: I agree with HTQ, 2000 was nice but it took someone to open the market in the first place Cheech Tremendous: can you have an Austin without a McMahon? Austin really only drew when he was booked in some way with McMahon on the other side. Hunter’s Torn Quad: Which means nothing because it was still Austin being part of the dynamic that turned things around Alkeiper: When was he booked without McMahon? Cheech Tremendous: He spent all of 1997 as the top babyface against the Hart Foundation and that didn't set the world on fire. He didn't do much after neck injury either King Kamala Classic: would evil McMahon have the same effect without Austin? Hunter’s Torn Quad You might have needed Austin with McMahon and vice versa for things to click as big as they did, but things weren't going to get that big with any other people in that dynamic Cheech Tremendous: I agree with that. It was a perfect storm Hunter’s Torn Quad: Austin deserves all the credit simply because it wouldn't have worked as well as it did any other way WrestleMania XV Alkeiper: Wrestlemania XV in my humble opinion is the biggest pile of crap ever to have the Wrestlemania label placed upon it. Multiple turns, run-ins, non sensical endings, hokey finishes, simulated death, and every other piece of crap that Vince Russo could put his idiotic hands on, Austin/Rock was the only decent match and that gets worse every time I watch it Hunter’s Torn Quad: This was Vince Russo at his nonsensical, idiotic, dumbshit, retarded, lacking in common sense worst. A total car crash with, as al said, nothing but run-ins, swerves, double swerves, terrible finishes, bad gimmicks, and complete retardation. The Hell in a Cell match gets forgotten for good reason; it sucked. Everything about it sucked from the storyline going in to the angle going out. It was pure, Ruossriffic bullshit. The main event was good, but not great, and saying it stole the show isn't anything to brag about. As a whole, taking into account match quality, good storylines, hot angles and everything else, this is hands down the worst WM ever. There isn't a single thing on this show you ever need to watch. Ever. You can go through your life never watching this show. In fact, I encourage it. Sensei John Kreese: 15 was a total one-match show, as they often were in the Austin era. The main event was good, but pales in comparison to the Austin-Rock match two years later. The HHH heel turn was surprising, as was the Big Show face turn, and that's about it as far as notable moments at this show. I hated the "switch the Outlaws in the title matches" dealy-a-bob they pulled, because both guys had legitimate issues with their originally-scheduled opponents, and in both cases, the multi-man matches made sense as opposed to being thrown together before Russo switched them. Test's classic "Guns don't kill people, I KILL PEOPLE" shirt makes an appearance, and that's a plus. Can you believe WWF really thought Bart Gunn could knock out Butterbean? This show felt like little more than an overlong Raw with a special main event tacked on, but it got a huge freakin' buyrate so who cares? Also notable was HBK totally botching his pre-main event promo, as he told Vince "you and your corporation are barred from ringside," then realized that Vince had to interfere so added, "Well, I guess you can come down" which just sounded ridiculous. Oh, Shawn. King Kamala Classic: Yeck...another bottom 5 show here, may in fact take the #1 spot. Just doesn't feel like a WrestleMania at all...more like a bad In Your House. I recall Backlash the next month being a much stronger show wrestling wise (though that's not saying much). The main event was good but we'd see lots better from Rock and Austin and X-Pac/Shane was a fun enough garbage match but we'd see a lot stronger garbage matches from Shane. Everything else just sort of sucked...especially the Hell In The Cell match (which was so bad they neglected to put on that Complete Hell DVD that came out a few months back) and I as well hated the switching of The Outlaws in the title matches. Was funny to see Bart Gunn get knocked out though. Though I think it's hyperbolic to say this is Russo at his worst, are we forgetting a show called New Blood Rising, gentlemen? Anyways, bad bad bad show. Yep, it very may well be the Worst WrestleMania ever. I switch back and forth between this and IX. Cheech Tremendous: Everyone hates XV, but I really remember enjoying the show at the time. Like most Russo era stuff, it was great while you were living it because of the great episodic television he wrote, but the stuff was so nonsensical that it didn't hold up a month later, let alone ten years. But like Russo or not, things were really clicking in early '98. Maybe I'm just being overly nostalgic because this was basically the height of the wrestling interest from my friends, but I have a soft spot for it. We probably had a dozen or so people watching this show and we all left the event happy. Austin/Rock was a rather lackluster match, definitely the weakest in their series, but those two were so over at the time that you can't help but enjoy the atmosphere. I do think that the buildup was poor, with way too many title changes leading up to the show. Should have just made it a three-way if they were that concerned about keeping Foley hot in early '99. The rest of the show: lazy and forgettable. I guess X-Pac-Shane is a fun little brawl. Billy Gunn should have gone over Shamrock at this show for the title, but I guess since that was too predictable he had to switch places with the Road Dogg. I hated that. Oh, and the tag title situation was just a mess. If I were to criticize one thing above all else, it was the fact that they couldn't find a decent team to program against Jarrett and Owen. What a waste of the belts and a spot on the card. But Butterbean destroying Bart Gunn is the funniest thing to happen at Mania and if you can't enjoy it, you have no heart. Big Show-Mankind was really a waste King Kamala Classic: I haven't read them in years but I vaguely recall Foley admitting that he was half assing his series with The Big Show in one of his books. Cheech Tremendous: Both were super hot at the time and left the show in way worse shape Final Thoughts? King Kamala Classic: any final thoughts before we finish? On XV? on the era? Hunter’s Torn Quad: Not the best stretch for quality shows King Kamala Classic: Yeah, for my money, the worst era of ‘Mania with XIII and XV being two of my least favorites and XI not being too far behind. Cheech Tremendous: Most of them were one-match shows. A really average bunch of shows overall. King Kamala Classic: None of these shows really had the sense of spectacle I expect in a 'Mania either. Not even XIV really. XI kind of attempted it with the shitty celebrity cameos but you can't have a spectacle in Hartford. Cheech Tremendous: Hartford! King Kamala Classic: They all just sort of looked like any other show. Cheech Tremendous: I still can't believe they ran Mania in Hartford Was Columbus, Ohio already booked? How about Tulsa, Oklahoma? King Kamala Classic: I believe Smuckers Stars on Ice was running at The Worcester Centrum that week Sensei John Kreese: someone needs to ask meltzer why hartford Cheech Tremendous: HTQ, get him on the horn! Hunter’s Torn Quad: Probably because it was their 'home' King Kamala Classic: I don't think the aura of WrestleMania would be recaptured until X-7....but that's next time Cheech Tremendous: Nice seque, Kamala King Kamala Classic: thanks

Al's a working man so he should be on here in two or three hours.

Roundtable Part IV in a half hour----we have a slot open and the first poster to PM me with their AIM screenname gets it!

Well I ate some leftover corned beef and cabbage and I'm prepping to run another WrestleMania roundtable. Wild wild stuff.

Hell, I'm honestly surprised Jingus hasn't been taken yet. He sells a shot to the nuts better than anyone on the low-rent Southern indy circuit.

I bet sivy is seething somewhere now that he doesn't have the opportunity to reunite the legendary team of "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan and Super Crazy!

Maybe I should bump up the Curb Your Enthusiasm thread for this but I finally got around to renting the first season on Netflix. While far from a bad show, I'm not seeing the greatest sitcom on television. I'm assuming it gets better in future seasons, right?

I know this is going to sound morbid but one of my first reactions (fortunately not the first) after Test was "I wonder how soon he's going to go in the All Time Wrestling Roster Draft" after this. But honestly, all that aside, I don't think it's a terrible pick at this stage in the game. He went around the same time in the first draft. The guy seemed to be on the verge of breaking into the main event in late '99/early '00 but then just kind of fizzled.

Oh man, I'd pay $30 for a drunken Sandman Vs Warrior promo showdown alone...but he really does fit best on 6foot9's roster. Really surprised it took him this long to get picked.

Even as a kid, I never really liked Pop Tarts. I would say they were too sweet even then but I liked all sorts of sugary crap back then.

I was very close to volunteering to run this tournament. I'm glad I didn't. Most of us (excluding pbone, Smartly Pretty, maybe Amnesia Glasscock) have some sort of attachment to the music of the '90s and are more likely to get BUTThurt and grouchy when our favorites aren't included. There's a sense of detachment to the music of the '60s, '70s, and to a lesser extent the '80s (this is assuming that the majority of TSM's population is still in their early to mid twenties) that makes it easier to run a tournament of those decades. This is a tough and thankless job that Kinetic has and I certainly don't envy him. I'd just let the tournament limp to a finish like the '60s one did. No need to start over again because it'd be the same thing all over again. These tournaments are always a great idea in theory but they only manage to make everyone mildly annoyed in execution. I'm going to wait till the round of 64 to vote....

Damn, Da Crusher was on the top of my list as one half of a tag team to battle The New Islanders in a Battle of The Tough Guys (wasn't that the tournament that won in No Holds Barred?) Taka and Carlito are also great picks at this stage.

So last night, we're doing the WrestleMania 6-10 roundtable and I mention that I think Piper painting himself half-black before his match at WrestleMania 6 was the moment that he jumped the shark. Not to say that he didn't have some great moments afterwards but he was never quite the same. Anyways, this led to Smues asking if Piper ever did anything good in his WCW stint? And I thought for a moment and nothing came to mind. Nothing in a three and a half years or so long run where he was in the company on a semi-regular basis. I just remember watching his promos and wondering how a guy that cut one of the best promos in wrestling in the '80s could sound so lame. They just sort of reminded me of my uncle retelling already lame jokes from a Jay Leno monologue poorly....except under the guise of a wrestling promo. And the wrestling itself? Well the poor guy should not have been out there in the first place so needless to say he was a part of a few negative star matches. Personally, I think that besides Warrior, Piper may have been the absolute worst of the big ticket WCW signings during the Monday Night Wars. Yes, worse than Bret, who while not up to his previous standards, still had a handful of good matches and give us the immortal line "Who are you to doubt El Dandy?". I love Piper but he really brought nothing to the table. So...let's talk about the crappiness, the trainwreck angles, the promo from Alcatrazz, let's hope some apologists for Piper's WCW run are out there.

Why you hating on me so much, Kotz? I don't want no internet beef.

Wow Cheech The Grouch reappears. There are probably 110 songs I like on this list! I would guess that he didn't come of age in the '90s but he mentioned watching WrestleMania XV live while he was in high school in one of the roundtable so that's not the case. I'm guessing he just listened to BUTT rock in high school as I did.

Best wishes to you and yours, CC. My thoughts are with you. As for what we should do, I second Jebus' idea. Though if we do let someone else into the draft in Chris' place, can it please not be TI? Nothing personal against him but Mother and Father Kamala taught me at a young age not to reward whining.

I'm starting up this blog again for goofy fantasy booking crap...this time, I hope it won't be so ridiculously detailed oriented and cause me to drop it a week after I started it. Course I could do that again anyways. I'll be doing WWF/E 2002 by the way. Already have booked most of January and The Rumble!

Yeah, I have to say that I really like how my promotion is shaping up thus far. Besides the occasional dead spots, I'm digging the heck out of this draft. There are very few rosters here that just don't make sense.

I was thisclose with going with Tommy Rich and Iron Sheik for my two picks. I even did a write up for Sheiky baby. Saying I was humbled to pick him . If my picks had came up last night, I very may well have picked those two. All American Good Old Boy Vs Evil Iranian is a can't miss angle but unfortunately, I couldn't resist Rikishi for another round.

Tommy Rich was high up on my list of guys I was thinking of taking for one of my last two picks. One of the last remaining former World Champions that was left on the board.

Yeah, Rikishi will be wearing the sumo outfit. I'm taking late '00/early '01 era Rikishi. The reason for his heel turn was really really stupid (not as dumb as the reason for why he turned back face) but I actually kind of liked heel Rikishi. Don't think he'll do the Stinkface though. And I apologize to everybody for taking The Sultan off the board as I imagine he's on the top of the Best Available list.