rising up out of the back seat-nuh

Last time I compliment you At this point it's still questionable as to whether going into Iraq in the way the US did (without UN sanctions or complete UN support) is beneficial to the Midle East's stability and peace. From outside the Us, this still looks like an American war for oil, and fits in with the stereotypical view of Americans (loud, brash, egocentric rednecks). It has certainlt brought done America in the eyes of many foreigners. I didn't mean in the sense that Europeans go in doing missions of charity with no thought for their own benefit, more in the sense that Europeans often go in alongside Americans, and that their lost lives trauma suffered are every bit as important as those suffered by Americans. European nations are as blame-worthy as Americans, I just meant that they aren't unimportant globally. That was MB's point, not mine. I have no idea what he was getting at, just trying to give a possible explaination. Again, agreed. I was just pointing out that saying America looks after itself more than anyone else, doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist, which is what you were insinuating in your first post. There is a difference between balancing a budget and running your country as a business, with the sole intention of making as much money as possible.

Just make sure you finish off the A Team saga before you go...

Incidently, I would like to state that I was in the minority of Europeans who was in favor of goung into Iraq. I'm just playing devils advocate at this point.

^made < shoot some random cleaning lady for the good of the B team

The Americans have still done pretty well out of those countries Only in the mind of those like you does the fact that AMerica may have gotten anyhtign out of it disregard the fact that those countries have made out far better and that America paid one hell of a price to liberate them such as thousands of dead men, thousands more injured, and billions in forgiven war debt. But we are pure evil and never do anythign to help others. Why is it that you guys can't seem to look for hte good in anything and always go straigh the supposed negative while completely and utterlu ignoring the benifit that any other than America may or may not have recieved? Why is that you guys feel that America should only do things that hurt us and help others and demonize us for helping others and also benifiting from that help in teh long run? It's just good business. You don't make very mnay bad business deals and stay afloat. It is AMerica's goal to stay in business. I don't dispute that many countries are better off for US intervention, but would the American government be as ready to help out countries if they had less to gain? And if the ultimate goal of the American government is to "stay in business", I feel sorry for your country.

Um, right. We went to war in Vietnam so we could get cheaper cotton. WTF. that's not what he said. Excuse me, but what DID he say exactly then? I suppose we went into Korea because hey, we wanted their cars too, right? Wow, lets make little comments suggesting something but never actually make the effort to argue the point. Whoo @ Laziness. Murmering Beast, you are the typical conspiracy theory idiot that thinks the US Government is somehow ALWAYS trying to get something from someone else. Vyce is totally right when he says you rank up there with Ozymandias or FrankZappaMask because you are just like them: Some ultra-leftist anti-government liberal who connects everything that the American Government does with some sort of evil plot to hurt the weak. To address what chave said about Iraq not being a threat: How many times does one have to say this? WITH SADDAM HUSSEIN STILL IN POWER HE WAS STILL A THREAT TO THE STABILITY OF THE MIDDLE EAST. The guy was a fanatic of the highest order and there is no chance for there to be seperate Palestinian and Israeli states with him around. The guy gave money to terrorism, he was obviously in pursuit of WMDs (As Marney constantly quotes, there was NO debate about this a year ago, and the UN universally agreed that Iraq was either pursing them or already had them). If you don't think that the man would have done everything in his power to stop a Peace from being reached, you're more foolish than I thought. At everyone defaming the US inderdicting everywhere in the world: What about YOUR countries? Have your countries deseated any harsh dictators lately? Have they even DISCUSSED doing this lately? Frankly, I can't see how anyone Europe doesn't care about anyone but themselves. If you make the argument that the US goes everywhere because they are greedy, I'm going to make the counterargument that Europeans are so self-centered that they'd rather keep the status quo than actually try and help anyone. Seriously, when you are protesting to keep a dictator like Saddam Hussein in power because it might mean doing something, what am I supposed to think? No one in Europe has done anything meanful for God knows how long outside of protecting their own holdings (Case in point, France and German had multi-billion dollar holdings with the Iraqis and their oil fields. Do you really think their reasons in Iraq were so pure now?). Remember: The evil can only succeed when good men do nothing, and that's just what Germany and France wanted to do. Is it true? Not necessarily, but it's just as valid as your arguments and beefs against the US. On the Germany/Jew mess, I'm not going to go there. I don't really care about it, and all the "OMGODZ TEH US IZ BEINGZ TEH BADSZ*@#()!" side is trying to use it to divert attention as their arguments on the US = Greed are being shot down. Leave it be and try arguing your point. Cool, a half-decent response for once. The reason that many Europeans (leaving aside their governments who are no doubt as corrupt as any other in the world, and concentrating on the average citizens) opposed American intervention in Iraq was that it was seen as an American war on a country that had done nothing recently to oppose the states. Hussein may have been a dictator and unco-operative to the states and threatened the stability of their region, but this is no different to many more governments in the world, both now and in the past. The fact that Americans were over-eager to go into Iraq and, seemingly, finish off the last Gulf War rubbed many anti-Americans up the way, and since then the Americans have done nothing to suggest that they were justified to go into Iraq. I don'tthink that the manner in which the US have gone in to Iraq has improved the stability of the Middle East or America's standing in the world. European nations have done many things for the good of the worls that you may be unaware of, just as I'm sure that your country has done much good you're unaware of. I think MB may be suggesting that American involvement in Vietnam was tied in with the recent capitalism in the region, but I might be wrong. Also, you don't have to be a conspiracist to believe that the US government looks after itself above all others. That's common sense...

The Americans have still done pretty well out of those countries

::The B Team arrive in the parking lot:: chave: Here we are. "A Hotel in Canada", just like CHOSUN's note said. Caboose: You've been saying that for the whole trip. Shut up already! chave: 'kay. Just thought you'd be interested, that's all. Hey, look! Overe there! It's Murmuring Beast! What an unexpected plot twist! ::MB runs up to the intrepid duo, his early 70's style Brian Wilson beard flowing in the wind:: MB: Hey, what up homeboys? Caboose: MB? I didn't think you'd speak like that. MB: Yo, I be a bad trash talking fly motherfucker. chave: But you like the beach boys and all. I thought you'd be a hippy or something. MB: Word! chave: 'kay. What are you doing here anyway? Last I heard you were fighting with Cancer Marney in Germany. MB: Yeah I was, but check this wack shit out. I saw Mario Logan earlier looking for your funky asses. He said he wanted to help you fight the A Team, or some shit. Apparently, they've got something precious of his... Caboose: Canadian Chick! It must be! This case becomes more and more curious. What do you think, Watson-chave? chave: ? Caboose: You suck. MB, you may go now, as the novelty value of your comedy slang is growing thin. MB: Wack. chave: Look! In the hotel! That looks like Choken One staring at us from the window. ::Choken disappears from the window:: Caboose: We must formulate a plan so cunning that if it was a fox, it would have all the pies. chave: 'kay. ::A crashing noise comes from within the hotel:: Caboose: Shit! Lets run into the hotel like in 1970's cop films.

The fact is that America has done pretty damn well out of the countries they "liberated"...

...wow, this board is really filled with stupid assholes. We didn't try to block any kind of liberation, we were trying to prevent a crime against international law. I didn't work out, we have to live with that. But that doesn't change the fact that we and our European partners are an important part of international politics. It makes me sick how some of you just ignore the fact that OUR soldiers are protecting Afghanistan right now. And how come that the American economy is so dependent on European market if we all don't matter? And why is it that Bush would love to see us help out in Irak because the whole thing is burning a hole in his pocket? You most certainly did try to block a liberation. And you failed. Sorry. Iraq wasn't a threat? Interesting, that you think that and still feel that I'm a "stupid asshole." You and your Europpean partners, it takes 10 or 12 of you to have any real say in anything and unfortunately your's and the French President ran on an anti-American ticket and became irrelevant in the eyes of many Americans and most importantly the eyes of the President and his his administration that you've tried to defame. But defemantion is nothing new to you guys.[/cheap shot response for being called an asshole for no good reason] Why are we dependant on the European market? Because there is money to be made. COuls we cut out the French and Germans and still do fine? Yes. You haev to partner up with an entire continant to stay quasi-relevant. Bush would love to see you so something to help out the world rather than obstruction and name calling. But that doesn't seem to be happening any time soon. Germany didn't try and block it. They wanted a more compelling arguement to go into Iraq than what was given, as common perception is that it was just Dubya finishing off his fathers work. It's not a case of Germany being obstinate for the sake of it just to piss you guys off.

Gallup; requires subscription. It's easy enough to find with the keywords "Jew," "German," and "9/11." Any chance you could cut and paste? I don't like paying for my propoganda...

No it isn't. Also, IBM and I made the same points at the same point. ROCK ON~!

Really? The Ku Klux Klan has a difficult time procuring more than 150-200 people for its rallies. I know the figures because I've field-managed security for counter-demonstrators. 12-17% of Germans polled in April 2003 believe that Israel was behind 9/11. That's out of 83,251,851 people. Comparable? Don't make me laugh. That is the KKK. Not those who discriminate against black people. And believing that Israel was behind 9/11 doesn't mean they're rascist, although it doesn't look that good. And do you have a link to the poll you mentioned? Also, wasn't there a similar thing with a high proportion of Americans believing that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11?

MB, with all due respect, that arguement is as biased as of those who argue that America is the worlds guardian.

Ad hominem. Address his arguments. What arguements? It's a piece pandering to anti-German feeling in the USA, saying that the German government should have gone along with the US in order to maintain international relations.

This is not an arguement about international law, unless you make it one. The history of the American people, while not as tarnished as that of the German people, is still not clean.

In light of this post, it's quite amusing that you have the cheek to call others "ignorant." More than enough for what? The anti-black community in America is most definately comperable to the anti-semetic community in Germany.

Also, Cancer Marney, you were aware that the piece you linked to was written by the German Shaddow Defence Minister, the man who gets payed to oppose the German governments decisions, weren't you? A tad biased maybe?

Kindly define "international law." bombing the fuck out of Iraq when they weren't a threat...

As possibly the only German user on this board I'll give you a heartfelt 'FUCK YOU!' for this idiotic outburst. Vyce is correct; they do - although the Arabs (of course) were the first to disseminate this ridiculous conspiracy theory. What is wrong with Germany? What's sad is that Jewish schools in your country still need armed guards to protect them from your peace-loving citizens, and that graffiti proclaiming "SIX MILLION JEWS WEREN'T ENOUGH" is a fairly unremarkable sight in Berlin. If you'd learned anything from your history, I could wish you'd show it once in a while. But you can't. Because you haven't. Well, someones tarring everyone with the same brush. There is a load of rascist graffiti in the US. Does that make your country rascist? People on this board are saying that Germans hate Jews. Does that make everyone here rascist? No. The minorities are not representative of the majority. Yes, there are some in Germany who resent the Jewish. But there are biggots and nationallists in all countries. I spent a couple of weeks travelling through Germany this year and last, and got no resentment for being British. Damn, these types of posts are the reason why so many Europeans dislike the Americans.

Oh, that makes it so much better. Anyone who think that the U.S. Govt. could possibly be behind or related to 9/11 is plain foolish. Causing thousands of American deaths doesn't lead one to victory come election time, and the info WOULD come out. 9/11 and it's aftermath has greatly improved Bush's hopes of re-election, no? I don't agree with the conspiracists, but saying that they are just plain foolish for considering it possible is naive...

No. You have your place. You are the Golum of this trek: always staying in the shadows, keeping an eye on the proceedings. Why? We may never know, untill it's too late...

Hello. As far as I'm concerned, I think that the Lib Dem's could overtake the Tories as the opposition at the next General Election. I think that they're doing the right thing by just stepping back and letting Labour and the Tories shoot themselves in the foot, before (hopefully) stepping up next year as a legitimate alternative to the main two. The problem they have over the war in Iraq is that it is a "Yess or No" situation in that people are either for or against war in Iraq. If they took a stand either way, they could potentially isolate voters, whereas stepping back and making a move later on more universal topics could give them more support. As for the Dr. Kelly saga, I'm not touching that with a 10 foot barge pole. Suffice to say that Blair has enough people to take the blame for him so that he stays in power. However, the longer this goes on (and the more he goes up against the media) the less popular he will get, and the more likely we will get PM Brown or PM Presscott in the near future...

I'm pretty damn sure that the US have caused and will cause more pain, suffering and civillian deaths than Al-Queda(sp?), no? It's not a huge leap of faith to think the US government is the more dangerous of the two...

::The B Team enter Canadian Chick's house:: chave: The A-Team are getting away! What are we doing here? Caboose: They may have left clues. If Sherlock Holmes was here, he'd look for clues. chave: Thats your answer to everything Caboose. It never works! Caboose: Shut up, Watson-chave. I'll search the basement. You search the bedrooms. chave: Snooping round a girls bedroom? Now that's what I joined the B Team for! ::Caboose wanders into the dark basement, and trips over something. He turns on a conveniently placed light switch:: Caboose: What the deuce! Anglesault? Tied and gagged? Naked? Wearing a Scott Kieth mask? So it was him in the pictures! Those dastardly A Teamers. Who on Earth could of thought up something so outrageously disgusting? chave: Yeah, that's my bad. Anyway, I found a note CHOSUN left saying where they were going. Caboose: Why would he leave a note for us? chave: That, my friend, is a plot twist for annother post. To the B Team-mobile! Caboose: 'kay. ::chave and Caboose run to the B Team-mobile, leaving AS in the basement alone, naked, tied and gagged wearing a Scott Kieth mask:: AS: (thinks) This is the best fun I've had in years...