Just John

I'd argue for the 02 class just because they were all 100% home-grown and all turned into good wrestlers/viable draws fairly quickly. Hell, they even produced a UFC champ in that bunch. The others have a lot of big names, but it's mostly guys who were already well-established elsewhere and just jumped ship. Austin was a midcard guy they turned into greatness, so I'll give them credit for that, but Foley, Vader, the Radicalz, and the Invasion guys were all developed elsewhere. You could still argue for 96 on the strength of Austin and The Rock alone, though.

This is true. Payton following Shaq around the league looking for a ring was pathetic. Even Karl Malone retired with some dignity after the All-Star Laker Experiment came up short. Payton went on to kill some time in Boston, refuse to play for Atlanta, and not contribute much of anything except a warm body to Miami as I recall. The 06 Heat were a confusing team because D-Wade was awesome and I wanted to cheer for him, but there were so many other unlikeable guys there that I didn't want to win the title.

Except for that small detail of... that Marino had ZERO run game to complement his passing attack. Peyton had Edgerrin James and Joseph Addai to take the slack off him. 2008 vs. Chargers Addai: 16 carries, 44 yds, 1 TD Manning: 25/43, 1 TD, 0 INT 2007 vs. Chargers Addai: 13/43, 0 TD Manning: 33/48, 3 TD, 2 INT We'll skip 06 because there were no losses to be responsible for that season. Both the passing and rushing numbers are good as you'd expect, although it's clear Peyton's still the best player on the team. 2005 vs. Steelers James: 13/56, 1 TD Manning: 22/38, 1 TD 2004 vs. Patriots James: 14/39, 0 TD Manning 27/42, 0 TD, 1 INT 2003 vs. Patriots James: 19/78, 1 TD Manning: 23/47, 1 TD, 4 INT 2002 vs. Jets James: 9/14, 0 TD Manning 14/31, 0 TD, 2 INT 2001 vs. Dolphins James: 21/107, 0 TD Manning: 19/32, 1 TD 2000 vs. Titans James: 20/56, 0 TD Manning: 19/43, 1 TD, 0 INT So, in all of Peyton's 8 playoff losses, he's played worse than his running game once (03), and comparable twice (01 and 02), and played slightly to considerably better than his running game in all the others. I'm sure Marino's playoff story plays out pretty similarly, but it still comes back to my original question of why Peyton "choked" and why Marino's "teammates let him down."

On Marino: I know he didn't have Taylor and Thomas for very long (although I did think it was more than two seasons), but I still don't get the parallel that all of Marino's teams sucked which is why he couldn't win as opposed to Peyton choking in every playoff loss when there were obvious problems on his teams as well. On T-Mac: I don't even know if you can consider last year's loss to the Jazz as a strike against him. Without Yao, he was doubled a lot and no one else on the team was a consistent scoring threat. That Rockets team was 8-seed quality at best without Yao. And it's a wonder that he even got that Magic team up 3-1 on the Pistons to begin with. I can see the point he didn't perform well in the last three games, but he was going against the #1 seed in the East which was clearly putting a better all-around team (esp. defense) on the floor. I actually think if the Magic had gotten swept, no one would really consider it a problem because they were so overmatched on paper. His interview was probably the biggest detriment to his case here, but I look at him leading that Magic team to three wins against the Pistons as a positive more than worrying about the Pistons shutting him down in the last three games (which they probably should've done sooner).

I think I'll take this one now, since it seems like one someone might like to take as "last round" pick. There's still some bands I like out there I doubt anyone will take. Tenacious D

I agree to a point, but Marino never had had Harrison, Stokley, Wayne, and James. Peyton didn't have the luxury of defenses with the likes of Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas for his "choker" years either. Luckily, he had Bob Sanders finally step up for him in 06, but based on the last two years, it looks like it's back to the same old same old for the Colts D, and it's Peyton who's getting the blame. Another interesting guy is Tracy McGrady. Since none of his teams have ever made it out of the first round, he gets the "choker" label despite generally putting up better numbers than he does in the regular season. Every playoff series he's been on losing side of has been because his team as a whole was inferior to the team they were playing, not because T-Mac was doing anything wrong. I think he's unfairly judged as an individual based on his teams.

I think this is one of the better points in the thread. The blurring between a "loss" and a "choke" is a big problem. Fact is, when you get to the playoffs in any sport, you're going to be playing good teams, so anyone's stats are likely to dip a little. But losing to the best (or better) team doesn't make you a choker. If your team has glaring weaknesses at other positions, it doesn't make the good players chokers. Peyton Manning's the classic case here. I have no idea how he got stuck with a choker label while Marino gets the "Well, the rest of his team wasn't very good" excuse. Peyton's been saddled with a mediocre defense for pretty much his whole career. Most of their playoff losses can be attributed to the D not making any critical stops (this year's OT loss to San Diego being a prime example). Peyton's had his own struggles, but it seems like people are quicker to bring up Peyton not being able to get anything done against New England than things like Marino losing 62-7 at Jacksonville and all his other early playoff exits.

The last two picks have been missed, so I'll take:

Finally beat BYOB to discover they put "Pull Me Under" by Dream Theater in the game and I didn't even know it. That made my day, although now I'm having some trouble with Satch Boogie.

I really like Poison. I think Fallen Angel is my favorite song of theirs. What about Bon Jovi?

I was playing through career on expert with no problems until BYOB. I can't get to 20% on that song to save my life.

Zalmoxes Wonder how many points you could get out of that in scrabble.

I'm pretty sure he quit the board or something. He made a post in the Porter thread and hasn't updated any of his drafts since, so I assume he's gone. If he comes back, I'll just unstrike him.

Camarasaurus

Are Bristol and Levi really still getting married? I thought they would end the charade once the election was over.

I didn't watch in '91-'92, and wasn't familiar with Razor Ramon or The Undertaker, but the buzz about them got my attention and I started watching again. I didn't watch in '96, and wasn't familiar with Steve Austin, but his persona immediately got my attention and I started watching again. Some guys are legitimately marketable...some will sell a few "trinkets", as Venkman says. Lose the dead weight and give me 4 hours of nothing but Edge, Jericho, Taker, JBL, HBK, Orton & the 2nd Gen'ers, HHH, Cena, Show, Santino, Shelton, Regal, etc. and you might have a fan again. Yeah, except you're not proposing to cut the 09 equivalents of Steve Austin and the Undertaker like John Cena, and well, the Undertaker. You're listing guys like Duke Droese and Phineas Godwin. Not everyone on the card is a cash cow, and I guarantee if you look at the rosters from 99-02, you'll find a bunch of shitty wrestlers. Hell, if you did your list of "beneficial cuts" back in 96, you probably would've listed HHH.

Aw, sounds like you need to spend five minutes with Tim Tebow. Seriously, was it just me, or was that like the worst-announced game ever? So many wrong down/yardage calls, pretty much every prediction the color guy made was wrong (They're gonna rush him here... Nope. Ok, this time they'll rush him... Oh, I guess not...), and then the never-ending verbal BJ of Tebow to top it off. I actually didn't mind my Fox audio feed cutting out from time to time.

Dryptosaurus

Parasaurolophus

Am I the only one who saw Miracle at St. Anna? I haven't seen it on anyone's best or worst lists. It would place in my top 10, although the order is yet to be determined since I haven't seen films with limited release yet (Gran Torino, The Wrestler, etc). Also, I'm disappointed by the lack of 10000 BC and Prom Night on the "worst of" lists, although maybe I'm the only one who (stupidly) saw those too.

Not all dinos need to be huge to be cool. Compsognathus

Except the week Pittsburgh held them under 10 at home. Miami's D is no Pittsburgh, but I wouldn't expect Baltimore to run up the score on them. They've been playing a lot harder than Dallas and Jacksonville down the stretch, that's for sure. That said, Baltimore's D isn't likely to have too much trouble containing Miami's offense, so 20 points could still win the game for them fairly easily.