clean rob

I think what Dames meant was that the figure 4 was applied to the same leg HHH had been working on just prior to that, so that it made sense.

Can't say I agree with that much at all. Whilst he's not the most talented on the roster on the mat or the mic, he hasn't got to where he is today just because of his massive push. He's put on good matches (for a hoss, and considering his allocated style is 'powerhouse'), his promos have gotten better and better - they still need lots of work, but they're already as good as most of the roster's (worse than Sid's? Pffft.), and he's got plenty of years still ahead of him. He went through a period of getting massive pops as a face and since turning heel he's toadied up to McMahon, picked on a cripple and slung him down some stairs and cheated his way to the title. How is that not giving the fans something to boo him for? WWE screw up a lot of opportunities but Brock is one of their few recent successes, how does he deserve the blame exactly? The only thing SD is really lacking is fresh, well written feuds. It's the writers and bookers (and, sadly, the fans...many of whom would rather watch Goldberg hand out another squash over Rodney Mack than a match involving cruiserweights) that is causing low ratings.

Smackdown is by no means perfect, and not as good as it was this time last year, but it is leaps and bounds ahead of Raw, which is just plain bad.

Lets face it, it's been better than Raw pretty much since it began existence.

As already mentioned, Cena and Eddie have done pretty well out of it. Big Show, A-Train, Chavo, Matt Hardy, Tajiri and Nowinski have all been in the limelight to an extent they probably wouldn't have been without the split, IMO. Mysterio, Spanky, TWGTT, Gowen, La Resistance and Rodney Mack have all been hired and have gotten at least a decent amount of TV time (whether they've been entertaining at all is a seperate matter, of course). Not to mention without the split they wouldn't have been able to build up Lesnar to the extent they did on SD, he would never have been allowed to be sole 'top guy' over HHH. I agree with you about limiting the amount of feuds though, it would be nice if they had an annual 'season end' or something where there's a period of brand swapping to keep things fresh.

Don't pretty much everyone's? If you ask me the Swandive Headbutt makes way less sense than anything RVD does. Bottom line as I see it is that whilst RVD's matches tend to be spotty and somewhat badly put together, HHH's are often tedious pseudo-squashes with little depth. Both bad, just in different ways. Personally, I'd rather watch a stupid but fun RVD match than HHH doing the old slow methodical schtick - but that's not the point. The point is that HHH and RVD are on a pretty similar level in terms of crowd reaction, despit the fact that Rob has never been given a decent feud that he's looked strong in, or a sustained main event push, whereas HHH - well you know. The ratings are in the shitter anyway, why Vince won't just take a chance and give RVD a decent push is beyond me. It might utterly bomb, if it does then it's back to the midcard for Rob. BUT there's a chance that it might make Vince some money, and that's what he's all about right?

Pffft. Don't lie, RVD has never acted angry (possibly because he can't) - I remember his reaction to Kane, what little of it there was, being along the lines of "Woah, dude...chill. Setting fire to people is WAY uncool." To be fair to RVD, he does so very few promos that it seems like he isn't given much chance to show off/improve his mic skills. Of what I have seen, most of them were at least not offensively bad (ala Kidman), and his promo before facing Flair was GOLD.

Couldn't agree more. Cole and Tazz have come on in leaps and bounds and are now so far superior to JR and King it isn't even funny. Vince's facial expressions still get me even though he repeats the same ones ad nauseum. Sean O'Haire, especially in that APA Invitational @ Vengeance when he was waving pool cues about with a 'fucking come on then ya bastards' look on his face. Hogan's point & YOOOUUU!, it just cracks me up.

Oh, JR ALWAYS goes totally over the top. Bless, he's so excitable. It would have been weird if he hadn't sold it to such a degree, although I agree it was annoying that the previous bumps weren't mentioned at all, just "Bah gawd, we have seen Shane do this before, surely he wouldn't again!" or something to that effect would have done. It's to be expected though, WWE are forever ignoring things that happened just a few scant years back.

If he is really over then why the anti-climatic feeling last night after he won the belt or those Goldberg Sucks!!! chants during the match? As long as Goldberg drops the title to Kane instead of HHH, then it will be fine for me, but as of now any little chance they had to get Goldberg over was lost back @ Summerslam. Well, I didn't hear any Goldberg Sucks chants but I'll assume you're right as I was pretty tired during the end of the show. I did, however, definitely hear GOOOOLDBERG chants breaking out several times during Heat and the PPV including every time they ran the promo and prior to the match. You are bound to get Goldberg Sucks chants to some degree because, well, he does suck. But he is also getting a lot of pro-Goldberg chants off the fans, and in my eyes that makes him over, or at least more over than 95% of the rest of the Raw roster.

They aren't going to be giving Orton any promos longer than a couple of minutes if they have any sense (debatable, I know) and if anyone on Raw is going to be delivering a long promo, Flair is just fine and dandy by me.

...most likely because the announcers are trained to wet their pants whenever Shane attempts his Bump Of The Month. It was a big bump. JR and King were selling it as such, what else could they have done? (Shane climbs scaffolding) JR: looks like Shane's going for a big elbow drop drop off the set, just like at Backlash 3 years ago! King: Not quite as high, is it though JR? JR: Well no, I don't think it is King. And why Shane doesn't just spend this time kicking Kane in the head is beyond me. King: Hasn't Kane been prone for over 10 seconds now anyway? What's the ref doing? JR: Good point King, in fact the more I think about it the stupider it seems...oh look there he goes. (Shane flies off the top) King: Pffft. I could do that. JR: This match sucks. I'm off to watch my Best of Jamie Noble videos.

Positive things about Goldberg: i) His surname is not McMahon. ii) He is likely to be booked in squash matches i.e. short ones iii) He won't be doing long, rambling, promos that take up way more time than needed. He'll just point at someone, shout "You're next!" and snarl a bit, then sod off. iv) He is over. This is a good reason to put the belt on him, no?

Dudleys vs. La Reistance : ** - Conway's table bump looked nearly as bad as Spikes, IMO...ooh, that was clever! Test vs. Steiner : ** - for good booking but another pretty bad match. Orton vs. HBK : ***1/2 - despite not liking either HBK or Orton, this was the match I got most into during the PPV, I didn't know who was going to go over and the wrestling was solid. 1/2* knocked off for the ending. Kim/Molly vs. Trish/Lita : 1/2* - even worse than I was expecting. I was hoping Lita would be less sloppy, instead she has gotten even worse. Shane vs. Kane : **1/2 - mildy exciting spotfest, did exactly what it set out to do. Y2J vs. Christian vs. RVD : **1/2 - I was expecting more really, match didn't seem to flow too well to me, although picked up in the last quarter and I marked out loads for the electric chair/powerbomb spot. JR/King vs. Coach/Snow : 1/2* for the piledriver spot and Y2J's promo. HHH vs. Goldberg : * - at least it was reasonably short. Wow, RRR really doesn't like WWE much, does he? Err, why are you even bothering to be in this forum?

I've always thought of a suplex as any manouvre where the opponent is physically lifted (as opposed to being tipped) over the attackers centre of balance. Does that rule anything out? Also, could somebody give me a brief description of the uranage? Only the Ura Nage (back throw) that I have seen practised in judo and jiu jitsu bears no relation whatsoever to the Rock Bottom.

I'm with NoCalMike, if Benjamin was REALLY that heated up about some shit that Bradshaw had pulled backstage, he would have: a) hit him with something STIFF at the end of the match. and b) NOT picked up a mic to yell his piece of mind at him in front of a live audience. Assuming, of course, he values his job. Smells like a work to me, or maybe a part of some rib or something...maybe it'll become clearer next SD!

I believe HHH's words were akin to 'Steph, even a Boeing 747 looks small when you fly it into the Grand Canyon!' - clearly referring to her bucket-like fadge. I found this hilarious, if somewhat childish...but then who watches wrestling for sophisticated humour? Raven Effect, maybe it's the drink, but I didn't notice any of the workers you mentioned lose a significant part of their moveset upon turning face. Please feel free to quote some examples and make me look foolish. And the example of the RVD/Jericho match is not a good one IMO. Y2J was still getting sizeable pops in that match, they were just outweighed by those of a red-hot RVD.

I'd say Bret/Bulldog was definitely a 4*1/2 match that was mostly a Bret carry. This argument is so dependent on what you term a carry, not to mention what you'd define a 5* match to be (incidentally, I HATE the 5* ratings 'system', but like I said that's incidental) that it is potentially never-ending. Angle regularly carries poor workers to 2*-3* matches, but has trouble going above that even with good to great talent. But that's what makes him a good champ, he very rarely has a shit match. DISCLAIMER: all my opinion, OK? (as this seems to be a bit of a minefield )

That isn't a clear indication of a reduced moveset after turning face, it's a clear indication that yet another pointless attempt at pushing Billy Gunn is in progress. Seriously, what moves can be done by heels but not faces? Anything that involves restholds for an extended period of time is obviously classic heel stuff, but other than that, pretty much nothing. Turning face is more likely to expand a moveset, IMO.

You're quite right, I haven't...some of it does sound excellent from what I've heard, but all my favourite Y2J promos have been delivered during his face run...personal preference, I s'pose. I just think there's more potential for comedy gold Jericho moments when he's a face, it's not like he can't still be arrogant and cocky (and have his beloved Jeritron 5000). I just can't help but feel that both his mat work and promos are more naturally suited to being a face, I reckon Y2J could be a potential goldmine for WWE with the correct push...ha ha ha! Like that would happen! Oh well.

Y2J (and many other wrestlers) played face at house shows during heel runs before, this doesn't mean a face turn for Jericho is set in stone. I hope a turn does happen in the near future though, Jericho's heel promos are very good, but some of his face work was CLASSIC. Not sure what it'd mean for the Highlight Reel though.

They'll have to, the match will be a drag if they just use their usual spots and transitions. I'm pretty confident they will, though...look at the last match, Brock's Fishermans Buster was cool, and that weird figure four choke thing Angle did was certainly something new. And reversing the F5 into a tornado DDT was pretty sweet, when they did it right! Hopefully as they've got plenty of time to prepare the match, they can come up with something very good.

Good point. Although, doesn't an Iron Man match go into sudden death if there's no victor after 60 minutes, ala Bret/Shawn? Although I suppose it doesn't matter as this is WWE and all the fans are stupid and will have forgotten, right?

I'm with most everyone else, I was in and out of my seat almost constantly during the RR '03 match, and it was the first time in ages I changed my mind more than once during a match as to who I thought was 'definitely' going to win. But I've enjoyed every single one of their encounters, they DO have great chemistry together (and admit it, their feuds are usually booked pretty well). Incidentally, it is quite possible to run fast with an injured knee, it just hurts and you risk causing it some serious damage. So Angle doing his top-rope belly-to-belly suplex spot after knee work makes him look like he's willing to take the risk and the pain in order to get a chance to finish off his opponent. In my opinion.

Anyone else think Lesnar is in with a good chance of winning? Cole is always putting over in Angle's matches how 'the longer the match goes on, the more it is to Angle's advantage', which would seem to stack the deck in Kurt's favour...which makes me think Brock will take the surprise win (opinion formulated using McMahonologic TM). Oh, and there will definely be a fair few falls. It won't work otherwise.