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Nina – Breath of Fire (Series) Celes – Final Fantasy 6 Citan Uzuki – Xenogears Kain – Final Fantasy 4 Terra – Final Fantasy 6 Locke – Final Fantasy 6 Cloud – Final Fantasy 7 Tir – Suikoden

Death – Castlevania (Series) Grahf – Xenogears Luca Blight – Suikoden 2 Jowy Blight - Suikoden 2 Queen Zeal - Chrono Trigger Seymour- Final Fantasy 10 Ozzie - Chrono Trigger Magus - Chrono Trigger

FF7 gets more backlash than it deserves. The fact that it inspired a bunch of cinematic crap with no substance and introduced a bunch of stupid fanboys to RPGs doesn't make it a bad game. It's still a good RPG with good gameplay, fairly compelling characters and a good, if somewhat flawed story. The graphics are dated, but there's not much else wrong with it. It doesn't deserve to win best game ever in my opinion, but I don't see anything wrong with loving it. It's still one of my favorite games, even if I'm not quite as high on it as I once was.

Death – Castlevania (Series) Miang – Xenogears Grahf – Xenogears Dracula – Castlevania (Series) Luca Blight - Suikoden 2 Zoma - Dragon Warrior 3 Jowy Blight - Suikoden 2 Barbarosa – Suikoden Sydney - Vagrant Story Sin – Final Fantasy 10 Seymour- Final Fantasy 10 Kahran Ramsus – Xenogears Wendy – Suikoden Gilgamesh - Final Fantasy 5 Magus - Chrono Trigger Golbez – Final Fantasy 4

Hopefully the number of *s will go down a bit... * Rena – Star Ocean: The Second Story - Bad start, lol. Tidus – Final Fantasy 10 Celes – Final Fantasy 6 * Alex – Lunar: The Silver Star Story * Celine – Star Ocean: The Second Story Citan Uzuki – Xenogears Kain – Final Fantasy 4 Cecil – Final Fantasy 4 Terra – Final Fantasy 6 Riou – Suikoden 2 - Ack, Crono's so going to win, but Riou's a better character. Fei Fong Wong – Xenogears Locke – Final Fantasy 6 Serge – Chrono Cross Cloud – Final Fantasy 7 Rudy – Wild Arms Tir – Suikoden

I predicted SMRPG over SF2. You just have to get inside these people's heads, hehe. I'm a little worried about the latter rounds though, when the Square games go up against the Nintendo games. Those matches are hard to call, since there are so many fanboys for both. I've got SMB3, FF6, FF7 and SSBM in the final four, FF6 vs FF7 in the finals with FF7 winning. Yeah it's stupid, but FF7 is just insanely over with the fanboys.

Leon - Final Fantasy 2 Kuja – Final Fantasy 9 Miang – Xenogears Emerald - Final Fantasy 7 Yuber - Suikoden (Series) Dragonlord - Dragon Warrior Dracula – Castlevania (Series) Rufus Shinra – Final Fantasy 7 Sephiroth - Final Fantasy 7 Harken - Wild Arms Zoma - Dragon Warrior 3 Behemoth – Final Fantasy Series Jowy Blight - Suikoden 2 Romeo Gildensturn - Vagrant Story Barbarosa – Suikoden Kain – Final Fantasy 4 Queen Zeal - Chrono Trigger Sydney - Vagrant Story Sin – Final Fantasy 10 Mother - Wild Arms Chaos – Final Fantasy I Seymour- Final Fantasy 10 Azala - Chrono Trigger Necrosaro - Dragon Warrior 4 Ozzie - Chrono Trigger Wendy – Suikoden Gilgamesh - Final Fantasy 5 Lynx - Chrono Cross Magus - Chrono Trigger Don Corneo – Final Fantasy 7 Tiamat - Final Fantasy 1 Golbez – Final Fantasy 4

Wow, second round and I still don't know who a bunch of these people are. Oh well. For some reason I know a lot more of the villians. Shrug. * Rena – Star Ocean: The Second Story * Selan – Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals Juest Belmont – Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance Tidus – Final Fantasy 10 Celes – Final Fantasy 6 Ryu – Breath of Fire (Series) * Lucia – Lunar 2: The Eternal Blue Frionel – Final Fantasy 2 * Celine – Star Ocean: The Second Story * Yuterald – Evergrace Mega Man – Mega Man Battle Network Citan Uzuki – Xenogears Kain – Final Fantasy 4 * Lharl – Disgaea: Hour of Darkness Link – Legend of Zelda (Series) Cecil – Final Fantasy 4 Sora – Kingdom Hearts Terra – Final Fantasy 6 Riou – Suikoden 2 Crono – Chrono Trigger * Luna – Lunar: The Silver Star Story Fei Fong Wong – Xenogears Locke – Final Fantasy 6 Ramza – Final Fantasy Tactics Serge – Chrono Cross * Kite - .hack Rinoa – Final Fantasy 8 Cloud – Final Fantasy 7 * Toan – Dark Cloud Rudy – Wild Arms * Rolf – Phantasy Star 2 Tir – Suikoden

Kefka versus Sephiroth first round is hilarious, heh. Boomerang - Wild Arms Biggs - Final Fantasy 8 Death – Castlevania (Series) Kuja – Final Fantasy 9 Miang - Xenogears Luc - Suikoden 3 Emerald - Final Fantasy 7 Ganondorf -- Legend of Zelda (Series) Yuber - Suikoden (Series) Grahf - Xenogears * Piastol - Skies of Arcadia: Legends Dragonlord - Dragon Warrior Neclord – Suikoden (Series) Zeromus – Final Fantasy 4 Albedo - Xenosaga Harle - Crono Cross Sephiroth - Final Fantasy 7 Luca Blight - Suikoden 2 Harken - Wild Arms Ultros - Final Fantasy 6 Id - Xenogears Zoma - Dragon Warrior 3 Behemoth – Final Fantasy Series * Loki - Valkyrie Profile - Unknown beats Peppor, heh. Jowy Blight - Suikoden 2 Hargon - Dragon Warrior 2 Romeo Gildensturn - Vagrant Story Garland - Final Fantasy 9 Diablo - Diablo Barbarosa - Suikoden Ruby - Final Fantasy 7 Kain – Final Fantasy 4 Queen Zeal - Chrono Trigger Delita - Final Fantasy Tactics Kraken - Final Fantasy 1 Sydney - Vagrant Story Lich - Final Fantasy 1 Sin – Final Fantasy 10 Yunalesca – Final Fantasy 10 Baramos - Dragon Warrior 3 Altima - Final Fantasy Tactics Chaos – Final Fantasy I Cactuar – Final Fantasy (Series) Seymour- Final Fantasy 10 Kahran Ramsus - Xenogears Azala - Chrono Trigger Necrosaro - Dragon Warrior 4 Fuujin and Raijin – Final Fantasy 8 Slime - Dragon Warrior Series Tonberry – Final Fantasy Series Wendy - Suikoden Vicks - Final Fantasy 6 Wedge – Final Fantasy 6 Gilgamesh - Final Fantasy 5 * Ghaleon - Lunar (Series) Lynx - Chrono Cross Deus – Xenogears Magus - Chrono Trigger Seifer Almasy – Final Fantasy 8 Don Corneo – Final Fantasy 7 * Leo - Lunar 2 Tiamat - Final Fantasy 1 Emporer Gestahl - Final Fantasy 6 Bowyer – Super Mario RPG

You can still just duck the throw. T2 had strong stuff all over the place, everything did much more damage. You had to deal with true mid WGFs that could do 80% on hit, hell sweeps with no trip stun, deathfists that did 60% on counter. It was just a different environment. Namco realized how hard to deal with some of that stuff was and nerfed a lot of it, but within the context of the game King's multiparts weren't broke.

Agreed, I don't think T4 is balanced. I was just using that as an example, because King is so bad in T4 and yet lots of people still used him as an example of why the game is broke. T4's getting better though. Miharu and Steve apparently are supposed to have an advantage on Jin, so he's not as unstoppable as he used to be. Too bad the game's already dead here.

Most of those people are still scrubs, and the very same people that get so pissed if you beat them. Just because you post on a forum about a game doesn't mean you're good at it. Most truly top players I've met have been very humble and are nice guys. But I can only really speak for the SC2 community, admittedly. Well, but the things you're using as examples don't fall into that category. King's multiparts have any easy defense, just duck and punish. That means there's risk, if you throw it out and you get ducked, you're at major disadvantage. The throw can also be broken when it hits, or at several points thereafter. Throws were your big example, but they're breakable and punishable on whiff in almost every game, so there's risk, defense and a chance of being countered. How, then, are they cheap? Really, there are very few moves in any tourney game that fit your definition of cheap as you put it above. Maybe some shit in Marvel, but that's about it. If it was indeed true that games routinely featured auto-win moves, then they would indeed be cheap, but very few games have stuff like that. Just because some people might think something is auto-win doesn't necessarily mean it is. See, now this is a perfect example. Apparently, unbeknownst to me and the entire SC2 tourney community, the game is full of instant-win techniques! Or, maybe it's not, and the people this guy is playing against just have no idea how to stand up correctly after knockdown. I've seen people lose to Nightmare's 3B over and over again because they keep getting hit with it on wakeup, but that doesn't mean it's an infinate. Those guys whined that it's "cheap", but all they need to do is hold guard after getting knocked down. Well, in short, yeah. I mean, who is more qualified to determine if a game is broke, the people who play it for hundreds of hours against top level competition and know it inside out, or some guy who messes with it for a few hours in casual? You're saying that when magazines call T4 King, who is bottom tier and has had little to no tourney success, broke, because they still can't deal with his multiparts even with the simplified breaks, that they're qualified to do so? I would certainly disagree. They're losing to King only because they don't have a decent understanding of the game, and until they get that understanding, anything they say is just useless whining. You don't have to be a national champion to criticize a game based on balance, but you certainly have to be more than just a casual player. I'm not as much of a purist as some people. I do think banning obvious, detrimental glitches like Lizardman's 214B+K throw is good for the game, and I do think games like MvC2, where out of 50+ characters you only see about 7 getting any play, are kind of lame. But in general, I think most whining about cheapness is unjustified, and in general, you're not qualified to whine about cheapness until you're fairly good at a game.

Meh, most of us fighting nerds are perfectly happy to just play with friends, and it's other people that start fights with us. We're the quiet humble ones, who have to constantly deal with people coming up, bragging about how good they are, and then pitching a fit when they get crushed. That's why I'm so down on "cheap", because it's almost always used in the midst of an angry, whiny rant about how I only won because I was "cheap". After dealing with that for years, it gets a little tiresome. Although by now, I'm so used to it that it's just kind of funny. I almost go out of my way to make scrubs mad, although it's still without ever saying anything.

Your definition of cheap is just an arbitrary mess. Any efficient move is going to be easier to do than it is to deal with, otherwise what's the point? Are you saying people should only use slow, telegraphed moves that are hard to do? How incredibly, stupidly limiting. People, using your definition, have called pretty much everything I've ever done in SC2 "cheap" at some point. I use X, and AAB, 3A, 1A, 3B, 22B are all cheap. So I get sick of them whining and use Mitsu. Now kB2, 2KB, 66K, anything out of mist, relic B are all cheap. So I use Sophie, and 236B, 11A, 44B, 33B, 66B+KAB are all cheap. So in short, anything that's good is cheap. Which is just stupid. So I'm only supposed to do moves that aren't good? Even then, some moves will always be better than others. Where do you draw the line? With your definition, you can't, it's just totally subjective and generally based on the definition that if it wins, it's cheap.

I can't comment in particular about original SF2 because I never played it at a good level, but in general, "throws are cheap" is the most common and most wrong statement that you see in threads like this. It's possible they actually are cheap in SF2 (high and low, unbreakable for 20% does indeed sound strong), but you also said throws were lame in Tekken and Soul Calibur the last time we argued, so you lose some credibility with me there. If a game is designed so that turtling is actually overpowered, maybe you have a point. The problem is that a lot of people, like the original poster, equate any sort of evasive, safe play with turtling. "Omg he used 8wr to step my move, lame!". Um, that's what it's there for. Omg do horizontals instead of verticals! It's pretty safe to assume if it's some arcade guy he's not going to be step-guarding. Repeated AA equals win. Meh part of the fun is learning to play against people of all different skill levels and play styles. Using 8wr/step/step-guard all the time is just a strategy in SC2, knowing how to counter it and other strategies is just part of the game. Playing well with a defensive style is hard, just like playing well with an offensive style. I don't see why one is considered better than the other. Fights can just be just as interesting trying to get through a good defense as just rushing each other down.

Not sure if it's what you're thinking about PK, but this is good. http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/thread34747.php Anyway yeah, all the people whining about stupid little tricks that beat you should indeed just get over it and learn to deal with the trick. Scrub stuff is easy to beat if you're decent at a game. And stuff like turtling isn't "cheap" at all, it's a viable strategy that often is what's needed to win. I think the original poster mentioned SC, and especially if he's talking SC2, constant step and movement and turtling is pretty much a staple of high level play since step is so safe. Playing defensive with the lead is just smart, especially in a game like SC2 where it's so much easier to punish rushdown than it is to do damage with it.

Yeah, getting angry is pretty weak, especially if you slam the buttons or kick the machine. Hurting the machine because you suck is really pathetic. Anyone who says they "play for fun" to justify their lack of skill. Just annoys me, especially because those people tend to be the same ones kicking the machine. Yeah, certainly looks like you're enjoying all that losing! Those people that, right when a game comes out, look for the most abusable move and do it over and over. Yeah, that's so productive, way to help everyone get better! And then they quit as soon as their one move stops working, yay.

BoA - Be the One

From what I saw of it, it seemed extraordinarily tedious with a very limited amount of control options that make for a really crappy stealth experience. It really feels like it's getting by on a combination of violence and Rockstar's name. My friend that I was watching play sold the game after three days, and said it was one of the worst games he'd ever played.

Don't take this too seriously, sheesh, it's just for fun.

Dragonlord (Dragon Warrior) Hargon (Dragon Warrior 2) Baramos (Dragon Warrior 3) Zoma (Dragon Warrior 3) Lich (Final Fantasy 1) Kary (Final Fantasy 1) Kraken (Final Fantasy 1) Tiamat (Final Fantasy 1) Emporer Gestahl (Final Fantasy 6) Emerald (Final Fantasy 7) Ruby (Final Fantasy 7) Azala (Chrono Trigger) Ozzie (Chrono Trigger) Lynx (Chrono Cross) Garland (Final Fantasy 9) Boomerang (Wild Arms) Zeikfried (Wild Arms) Harken (Wild Arms) Alhazad (Wild Arms) Mother (Wild Arms) Hehe I like my quad-villian groups. Yeah, don't feel like you need to use all of these, just felt like throwing some out.

It seems like a really well made game that Nintendo obviously put a lot of time into, and it definitely has a lot more depth than the first one. Still not my style, but definitely a quality game. Edit: New Year's resolution: Spell definitely right.

Man, so many of these people I don't know. Yay for random guesses~! * = Random guess! * Orphen – Orphen: Scion of Sorcery * Sanzo – Saiyuki: Journey West * Magnus Gallant – Ogre Battle 64 * Selan – Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals Nina – Breath of Fire (Series) Jeust Belmont – Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance Tidus – Final Fantasy 10 Aya Brea – Parasite Eve (Series) Alucard – Castlevania: Symphony of the Night - Celes vs Alucard first round when there's like 30 battles of the nonames? Bah. * Shidou Hikaru – Magic Knight Rayearth * Alundra – Alundra Ryu – Breath of Fire (Series) * Alex – Lunar: The Silver Star Story * Lucia – Lunar 2: The Eternal Blue Jenna – Golden Sun: The Lost Age - Not sure who Jenna is, but she can't be worse than Tifa. Frionel – Final Fantasy 2 * Kharg – Arc The Lad: Twilight of Spirits * Celine – Star Ocean: The Second Story * Yuterald – Evergrace * Cless – Tales of Phantasia Garnet – Final Fantasy 9 Chocobo – Chocobo’s Mysterious Dungeon Citan Uzuki – Xenogears * Stahn Aileron – Tales of Destiny * Nathan Graves – Castlevania: Circle of the Moon Kain – Final Fantasy 4 * Ratix – Star Ocean * Lharl – Disgaea: Hour of Darkness * Vyse – Skies of Arcadia Yuna – Final Fantasy 10-2 Cecil – Final Fantasy 4 * Shion Uzuki – Xenosaga (Series) * Arc – Arc The Lad Sora – Kingdom Hearts Terra – Final Fantasy 6 * Lyndis – Fire Emblem * Soma Cruz – Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow Riou – Suikoden 2 - Ugh, Riou needs to win this. * Joseph – Summoner Crono – Chrono Trigger * Bowie – Shining Force 2 * Eiyu – Dragon Warrior 5 Fei Fong Wong – Xenogears * Akia – Skies of Arcadia * Ryudo – Grandia 2 Locke – Final Fantasy 6 Aeris – Final Fantasy 7 Vivi – Final Fantasy 9 KOS-MOS – Xenosaga (Series) Serge – Chrono Cross * Kite - .hack * Fina – Skies of Arcadia Rinoa – Final Fantasy 8 * Mia – Golden Sun Cloud – Final Fantasy 7 * Flint – Alundra 2 * Yuris – Dark Cloud 2 * Toan – Dark Cloud Mario – Super Mario RPG Rudy – Wild Arms * Rolf – Phantasy Star 2 * Feena – Grandia * Yuri – Shadow Hearts Tir – Suikoden

When I hate a game, it's hardly ever because of the game itself, it's almost always because the game is thrown in my face for months and months, either by friends or by the press. Examples: GTA3/GTA:VC: They're not that bad of games, although I thought the gameplay was greatly overrated, but my God, after hearing about how they're the greatest thing ever for years by the press and a bunch of my casual gamer friends, I wanted to throw a hammer at the TV screen every time I saw a commercial for them. Soo overexposed, argh. Goldeneye: Same deal here, except even more so, since people would want to play the damn thing like five years later. I was tired of it by 1997, and people were playing it at parties and taking a TV that could be used for anything else in like 2001. And by then, everyone had memorized everything, so I'm like wandering around aimlessly and getting killed before I can see anyone. Blech. Hate it. FPS games in general are no fun if you're bad at them, and Goldeneye is like below average for an FPS game. Super Smash Brothers: Ugh, just stupid substanceless Nintendo fanboy stupidity. I don't mind SSBM so much since it's actually a decent game, but SSB was shallow and terrible and boring, and we played it for *years*, when TK3 and SC were available. Argh. Mario Kart 64: It wasn't even as good as the original! Heh, I'm starting to think there's a trend here with N64 games. Like, the four player gimmick made people think the games were good party games no matter how bad they were. MK64 had long and boring courses and a lame, unbalanced battle mode with boring stages. After one day, I wanted to go back to SNES Mario Kart and never play MK64 again, and yet, again, it got played for years. Blech. Bomberman 64, Starfox 64, Anything 64... Heh. Dead or Alive: It sucks, it's always sucked, the reversal system kills any chance of decent gameplay, and yet it's "OMG THE BEST FIGHTER EVER!" because it has pretty graphics. And games that use T&A as their major selling point also annoy me.

Barbarosa - Suikoden Wendy - Suikoden Luca Blight - Suikoden 2 Jowy Blight - Suikoden 2 Luc - Suikoden 3 Yuber - Suikoden 1/2/3 Neclord - Suikoden 1/2 Kuja - FF9