Some Guy

He's been wrestling Snitsky and Kane. Your not getting to show alot against them, especially in a godawful gimmick match like a Lumberjack match. I've seen him against HBK and Benoit and he didn't exactly shine in either match. He was really bad at WM 20 in there with Foley and Rock. That's 3 matches with 4 good workers and he did nothing to impress me. His wrestling style is "Generic Hoss verison 1.0." He does nothing that I haven't seen a million times from a million guys. Nothing he does looks devastating, his offense is plodding and pedestrian. The guy is just not a good worker. I hope he turns into a big star and brings the company back to it's 2000 heights but I don't see it with or without HHH around to steal his spotlight. Why do so many people defend this guy? He did a few cool backstage segments with HHH and looks cool in a suit? I don't get it.

In fairness to JJ that is only because WWE's fanbase is not soley made up of the IWC. If TNA had a similar fan base WWE (mostly marks and a relatively small amount of Smarks) then JJ would probably be getting a similar reaction to that of HHH's. Although HHH is smarter than JJ in that he has never been acknoweldged as being the a main power behind the company on TV, where as JJ has, at least through the association of his father and HHH does periodically drop the strap to someone the fans want to see win it and has consistantly good matches (I can't really speak for JJ's match quality though as I haven't seen him wrestle in probably two years since he doesn't work on Impact!). The only difference I can see between the guys HHH has beaten and the guys JJ has beaten is how far down the card they are pushed. WWE has HHH beat a guy and he is then pushed back to the midcard where he'll trade losses with all the other guys who HHH has beaten so that they'll maintain a certain level of overness, but not enough to be a threat to HHH at the top. With JJ it seems like after you job to him once or twice your "brush with greatness" is over for good, HHH will periodically bring them back up so that he can beat them again or in Benoit's case last week for the "first time." If anything HHH is worse because people actually watch his company and get emotionally invested into the guys he buries. No one to speak of really gave a shit when Monty Brown didn't win the title. The 400 people who ordered the PPV probably expected it or at least should have.

losing to the Hemme. She might wanna go back to posing in pics with Bob. No, going by that pic she'd be better off doing jobs to Hemme.

I have no problem with Batista as a person, from what I've read he is a great guy who loves his wive adn took care of her when she was sick. He wears his wedding ring when he wrestles. But that doen't mean I have to enjoy his crappy ring work.

Lane used to call the Torture Rack the "Rebel Rack" during Luger matches on CHVs. I can understand not wanting to call teh all American babyface's finisher "Torture" but calling it "rebel" to me makes me think of the Confederacy. I don't think Luger's character wished the South won the Civil War. Maybe I'm missing something or looking too deeply. Either way it was a lame name and "Human Torture Rack" or just "The Rack" was a much cooler name.

I understand that, but who is the last guy that Taker put over like that? I can't think of a single one. Very, very few guys get over like you decribed. Both participants generally have to be great workers (like Bret and Austin) and Orton and Taker are not great workers by any strech. I don't think Taker is capable of doing it.

I think he is capable of showing more charisma than he does based on the RNN deal. He came across as such a disingenous prick in those and I saw a little of that coming back on Raw. If he can get back to that type of personality he'll be a big star. In this thread I've heard him described as goofy looking and loved by 18 year old girls. Outside of Jeff Hardy I can't think of a goody looking guy who got big pops from the girls. He is obviously capable of getting over as that was sort of his downfall. He made the "mistake" of getting over so they jumped the gun and turned him face. He has a good chance of getting over with Legend Killer Version 2.0. I am not a big fan of his ringwork, it is really boring outside of that cool backbreaker that he does. His mic skills are passable but he comes off like he's forcing it. It doesn't sound natural and that's probably because they aren't his words. He also needs to learn how to pronounce his own last last name it is "Orton" not "Or-TON". That being said he has the best chance out of any of the guys on Raw who are close to the top (so basically he has a better chance than Batista) to get over and stay that way. They can protect Orton by putting him in there with good workers and he can get by with average workers. Batista needs to be against guys of Benoit's caliber to have a decent match.

That sort of reminds me of a lot of Taker's promos, who like HHH can say just about anything he wants to bury his opponents but they have to preface everything they say with how much respect they have for him and how great he is and God forbid they say anything to actually get over on a 42 year old who really should have no other place on the show but putting young guys over. This guy has squashed or cleanly defeated just about everybody on the roster in the last 15 years, you think it might, just maybe getting to be about that time for him to start giving something back? He's almost as bad as Hogan in terms of putting people over. Who is the last guy Taker put over? Brock? BTW, there is a huge differance between doing a job and putting someone over. EDIT: For more typos than usual for me, which is saying something.

Andre was turned heel specifically for WM 3. I think was he was getting at was not not do it when Andre was a little younger and more mobile? My guess would be that Vince was holding it off for a huge show and he delivered with WM 3 in the Silverdome. I wonder if they'll ever go back to that building for a WM?

Cena has been on the active roster for 3 years now and has actually gotten worse with his reliance on his goofy spots like the "5 Knuckle Shuffle" and the sloppy looking "Throwback". He seems to build his matches around three or four unrelated spots and has no idea how to incorporate them into the match. If you watch him, he'll pretty much just punch and kick and then he'll just do one of his signature spots and go back to punching and kicking. I can't fiure out how he could not have improved considering he has worked a lot with Eddy, Benoit, adn Angle. I don't think he cares enough, there is no other explanation, that I can come up with.

It was actually around December when everyone seemed to be jumping on the "Pimpista~!" bandwagon. Notice most are jumping of after they've realized that he is nothing more than a roid freak in a nice suit? Poeple here were jerking off over him and got delusional enough to say that he was a good worker or a good big man and he is neither. He's actually a poor worker and shitty big man. The reaction wasn't just a ho hum, "maybe they should have pushed him instead." It was "OMG~! PIMPISTA~! IS THE MAN AND HE RULZ 4 LIFE." All of the sudden 3/4 of the board turned into 5 year old marks. Orton has been pretty consistantly hated on for as long as I can remember, but of the two I'd much rather have Orton in the main events than Batista. Orton failing wasn't really all his fault. The booking was horrible.

Once again this according to Jannetty but he claims that he was not brought back as quickly as planned after the Barber Shop incident because he got arrested for assaulting an officer after the cop threw his date on the ground and he got 6 months house arrest. I know that he had drug issues as well and coke was involved in the arrest story as his date, who was under age was being removed from the club they were in after an altercation had put her coke in Marty's pocket so she wouldn't be caught with it. After Marty grabbed the cop adn got arrested he was searched and they found it but th egirl admitted that it was hers. Fair enough.

So did I. That was pretty bad. Making Tony Atlas into a "spear chucker" was a little bit over the top or more acurately way over the top. Once again, I'm not saying that their is no racism in WWE, I'm just defending their lack of black world champs. Maybe, but he as way over and didn't really need it, much like Roddy Piper. I said other than Booker, who was completely buried in that feud and was more than over enough and really deserved the title. Although technically the WWF did book him to win the WCW title twice (from Steiner and Angle), not that it's an excuse for not having him beat HHH at WM but it is something. Simmons failed as WCW champ (they mercy killed his reign ata house show) and KotR 97 didn't set the world on fire with he and Taker in the title match. Simmons was very good in his role as half of the APA but not a world title level performer IMO. K-Kwick, Coach, Rocky Johnson, Tony Atlas, Elix Skipper, Johnny Rodz, and D-Von are a few more possible guys for you yo make an arguemnet for. It's kind of funny, I'm having trouble coming up with black guys because I really don't pay much attention to their race. I look at their performances and judge them on that.

Old School with Flair's name on it. BTW, what do you do with them? I thought about buying a replica Winged WWF title belt but couldn't justify spending $250 or $300 on something that would just collect dust.

I won't argue that WWE has done some really stupid shit when it comes to race, mainly exploiting it (as they did in the examples you mentioned). I hate that they even bring up that so and so is black or whatever. Guys should be pushed or not pushed based on talent and/or ability to get over and draw money, not whether they are black, white, Hispanic, whatever. I absolutely could not stand Lawler during the Booker feud and hate that he says shit about Shelton. If all you are going to do is mock a guys youth then don't bring it up in the first place. What race card did Orton pull? I'm not saying he didn't, I just don't remember. I'm assuming it was with Shelton. But either way name a black guy other than Booker (which I think was less about racism and more about HHH's raging insecurity) who deserved the world title and didn't get it in WWE? Ron Simmons? Flash Funk? JYD? Ahmed? Mark Henry?

You're spot on about Batista. I could not for the life of me figure out why everybody here was spooging in their pants over a roid freak in a designer suit and sunglasses. The guy sucks. I've asked before for someone to name a good match that he's had without someone named Benoit or Michaels as his opponet and nobody answered. I asked for someone to name good promo he's cut and no one answered. The gut is boring. Watch his match at WM 20. He gets the tag when Rock is down adn waht does he do? He hits him a couple of weak lookig punches and then starts shoulder blocking him in the corner. Batista was a shitty monster heel and is a shitty monster face. He's imobile in the ring and wrestles exactly like Tomko, Masters, and every other shitty hoss who OVW was forced to turn out. That beign said he still needs to win the belt at WM if for no other reason than to transition it to someone else not name HHH. Maybe if Batista cycled downa little bit and worked on flexibility and being slightly explosive in his matches I'd find him entertaining. I liked Goldberg because of those reasons and he used original moves. Batista sucks and has no redeeming wrestling value other than looking good in a suit. Sorry for the tagent. Orton should still win at WM. He has some in ring talent and will get better (he's only 24) and will also improve his delivery of promos. Taker is old, washed up, and played out. It's past time for some new blood at the top of the card. I'm not even really a fan of Orton, but looking at the state of WWE right now he absolutely needs to go over clean.

Sounds like Lawler. Hogan?

Does HBK included double crossing his partnner and friend in his version? Looney Tune, if you enjoy most of his matches why do you bitch about them so much?

Because no one comes out of a long program with Taker more over. Taker will dominate the feud and make Orton look like a pile of shit until Summerslam and then say that since he's not over that he shouldn't lose to the guy. They need to do the win for Orton at WM. Orton losign does way more to hurt him than a loss would Taker. Taker is 42 years old and presumably won't be active all that much longer. Orton is 24 and has years and years left in him. They have to bite the bullet and give Orton the big push and keep him heel. Having the fans decide who wins the match in a face/heel match is not a good idea. They're going to go with the face. Having the fans (who are generally not looking at the long term) dictate the finish of a match where one guy has been pushed to the moon for 15 years and never loses at the biggest PPV of the year and the other has been victimize by bad booking and being on the same show as HHH is not really fair to Orton. If they have a good match with a clean finish the crowd won't care that Taker lost. If it's a fluke or filled with ref bumps and other horseshit then they'll shit on it. It's all about the booking. HHH beat Foley clean at 2 straight PPVs in early 2000 and the fans didn't shit on the outcome because the matches were good, weren't overbooked and had clean finishes. If they book the match to make Taker look way better than Orton and have Orton get the win somehow no one gains from it and both are hurt, especially Orton.

In fairness to Marty the only time I remember him being a heel was in 96 with Al Snow as teh New Rockers and his character, along with Al's was in fact a joke. We'll never really know whether Marty would have made a good serious heel because he was never given the chance. I'd be willing to bet that Shawn had some doubters in 92 after playing the bouncing babyface for his whole career up to that point. Shawn progressed and changed his style, Marty never did because he wasn't allowed to, at least in WWF. He had the pretty much the same character/gimmick from his debut in 88 till he left in 97. Other than that I pretty much agree with you about Shawn. I truely think that a alot people here don't like him because he was a prick backstage and refuse to acknowledge that he was and still is a great performer in the ring. He's not perect by any strecth but he consistantly puts on quality performances.

So what? He is still half black. What does him being half Samoan have to do with anything, does that somehow make him not half black? I realize that WWE hasn't had a whole lot of black World Champions but other than Booker who deserved the title and didn't get it? Bad News, maybe?

I didn't read the whole thread at it seemed more like "he should win!" "No he shouldn't" for the first few pages with nothing more. So, if I;m repeating anyone, it's not intentional. I think he needs to work on his promo skills but he got over as a heel last night and it was done almost right. Orton should have grabbed the mic after the RKO and said the line about "If I did this to my girlfriend..." and he should have shown no remorse for it on the way back to locker room. He should have been posing on the ropes while they carted the bitch off. He should not care about or respect anything but himself and Stacy should come back to him. I think they can build a Savge/Liz type deal out of them with Stacy being the devoted love slave and Orton treating her like shit. As long as JR doesn't kick it into hyperdrive the first week of the angle and go on and on about how she should leave him it could work. They could play it up for months with maybe a few of the divas tlaking to her about him being a prick and build it up to her eventually leaving him and taking on another guy to gain her revenge. This would actually give Orton and Stacy defied characters, which is a novel concept in WWE these days. Orton needs to be a total dick next week and really turn up the volume on his heel turn and then go over Taker at WM. A DQ win is bullshit and does nothing for either guy. If Taker's streak is ended by a DQ it's a huge waste. Taker needs to lose clean to the RKO in a evenly fought match. None of this total Taker domination bullshit before a fluke roll up. They need to put Orton over strong and move him to SD! to feud with Cena over the title and tell HHH that under no circumstances are the words "Randy Orton" to come out of his mouth during a promo for any reason.

I can't believe that Waltman is only 33. He's actually 32 according to PWI (7/13/72) but it seems like he's been around forever. Plus, he hangs around with guys 13 years older than he, maybe that's why he seems older to me. It's kind of sad when you see how old some of the TNA and WWE guys and realize what gimmicks they're playing. Teddy ong is 49 and doing the "Holla Holla" bullshit, Konnan at 40 doing his "let me speak on dis" deal, Billy Gunn trying to be a pretty boy at 41, Raven playing the same spoiled brat who is rebeling against society gimmick at 41, HBK playing the "boy toy" at 39, and Hall being his normal sohomoric self at 46. I think it's time for some of these guys to grow up.

Notice that I didn't mention Buff in my hypothetical of that Raw match should have gone?

Goldberg vs. Sting with Flair, Bischoff, Steiner, Booker, DDP, and other top WCW guys guarding the ring from WWF guys should have been done that night, but yes JJ and Booker would have had a better match than Booker and Buff.