World's Worst Man

I'd have to take Dynamite over Benoit. I guess comparing them directly, they're pretty equal. But relative to each guy's time period, Dynamite was better compared to the typical trend at the time he wrestled. To me, him doing the things he did in 1982 is more impressive than Benoit doing more or less the same things in 1992. As for Danielson, I'd say he's too young to be talked about in that same class. He certainly has the talent, and unless something happens to ruin his body of work (ie. stagnating in the E), I believe he'll equal Dynamite and Benoit before it's all said and done.

Why does every "worker? who was better?" only revolve around Flair, Hart and Shawn? Here's a MORE fun diccusion, Who has a better body of work? Chris Benoit, Dynamite Kid or Bryan Danielson? Let's stop debating endlessly about Flair/Hart/Shawn and open our minds and examine other equally good workers who always get neglected for those three egomanaics when it comes to their "work" ability. To answer the question however, I have to say Bret Hart is the slight winner if only because not every match with Bret felt the same, While Flair more times then not, felt like a repeat. That's not to slight Flair because Flair has an incredibly strong body of work equal to Bret's body of work. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But but, Flair is the best in-ring worker of all time! Dave Meltzer says so, so it must be true But yea, I definitely get annoyed by Flair and HBK constantly being brought up, considering there's a truckload of a guys who were better.

1993- vs Marty Jannety 1994- Ladder match with Ramon 1995- vs Jeff Jarret 1996- vs Bret Hart, vs Mankind (both were big contenders) 1997- vs Undertaker (Bad Blood), vs Austin (king of the ring) 2004- vs Benoit/HHH 2005- vs Kurt Angle, vs Benjammin You don't think those are arguable? Please list your MOTYs for those years. I know PWI voters at the time had him win in 93/94/96/97 <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 1993 - Shinobu Kandori vs. Akira Hokuto (04/02) or Kenta Kobashi vs. Stan Hansen (07/29) Both of these in a compete walk. The Jannetty match isn't even in the same universe. 1994 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada (06/03) This might be the best match ever. Again, this kills the ladder match. Absolutely kills it. 1995 - Misawa & Kobashi vs. Kawada & Taue (06/09) 1996 - Misawa & Akiyama vs. Kawada & Taue (12/06) 1997 - Misawa vs. Kobashi (01/20) 2004 - Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk (12/04) 2005 - Angle vs. HBK would be at or near the top of my list. The Benjamin match wasn't even as good as Angle-Jannetty or Angle-Benjamin. Now, it's not meant to be a slight against HBK. The 1993-1997 matches are probably 6 of the top 10 matches ever, so it's pretty tough competition. But based on the criteria I use, none of HBKs matches are even arguable from 1994-2004. That criteria being selling/stiffness/execution/story(which includes build, body-part work, etc). Then again, I'd imagine you and I have different criteria for what makes a match good, so it might not even be worth arguing (and that isn't meant to be insulting). Angle/HBK doesn't even rank in the top ten North American matches this year already and it's only September. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I wouldn't doubt it. It's probably #4 on my US list right now, and as for ROH, I've yet to see past their May 7th show. And there's supposed to be a bunch of real good stuff after that. Any recommendations on what WWE stuff was better? I've seen HBK/Benjamin, Angle/Benjamin and Angle/Jannetty and didn't think any were quite as good.

Well actually I was just talking about America since I pretty much lack any extensive knowledge on Puro and all non North American wrestling. I'd like to see your list for just American matches. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 1993 - Henning vs. Bret at KOTR 1994 - Bret vs. Owen at WMX 1995 - This year was so bad, I don't even know. I guess the previously mentioned Bret Hart vs. Diesel match was as good as any. 1996 - Bret vs. Austin SurvivorSeries 1997 - Bret vs. Austin WMXIII 2004 - Joe vs. Punk III Eddy vs. Brock for WWE. I would say HBK vs. Vader in 1996 would be a good candidate. I suppose HBK vs. UT in 97 too perhaps, although Bret vs. Austin is pretty tough competition. The WMXX 3-way wasn't too far behind Eddy vs. Brock, although for my money, neither match holds a candle to the 2nd and 3rd Joe-Punk matches.

1993- vs Marty Jannety 1994- Ladder match with Ramon 1995- vs Jeff Jarret 1996- vs Bret Hart, vs Mankind (both were big contenders) 1997- vs Undertaker (Bad Blood), vs Austin (king of the ring) 2004- vs Benoit/HHH 2005- vs Kurt Angle, vs Benjammin You don't think those are arguable? Please list your MOTYs for those years. I know PWI voters at the time had him win in 93/94/96/97 <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 1993 - Shinobu Kandori vs. Akira Hokuto (04/02) or Kenta Kobashi vs. Stan Hansen (07/29) Both of these in a compete walk. The Jannetty match isn't even in the same universe. 1994 - Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada (06/03) This might be the best match ever. Again, this kills the ladder match. Absolutely kills it. 1995 - Misawa & Kobashi vs. Kawada & Taue (06/09) 1996 - Misawa & Akiyama vs. Kawada & Taue (12/06) 1997 - Misawa vs. Kobashi (01/20) 2004 - Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk (12/04) 2005 - Angle vs. HBK would be at or near the top of my list. The Benjamin match wasn't even as good as Angle-Jannetty or Angle-Benjamin. Now, it's not meant to be a slight against HBK. The 1993-1997 matches are probably 6 of the top 10 matches ever, so it's pretty tough competition. But based on the criteria I use, none of HBKs matches are even arguable from 1994-2004. That criteria being selling/stiffness/execution/story(which includes build, body-part work, etc). Then again, I'd imagine you and I have different criteria for what makes a match good, so it might not even be worth arguing (and that isn't meant to be insulting). I didn't say my opinion was more valid than theirs. Because it proves nothing. If a bunch of wrestlers say "HBK is a great worker" then provide no points to back that up, what does it really prove? In general, I tend to think an opinion with supportable points is more valid than an opinion with no support at all. It doesn't matter how qualified someone might be. If they don't support their opinion, it's not worth a whole lot. And even if they did, using their opinion to prove your own opinion is not a valid argument.

This is just too nonsensical to even address. I would suggest going through the years you mentioned and comparing matches, then tell me if HBK was involved in the MOTYs in each of those years. No-selling isn't the same as making a comeback. Comebacks can be made while still selling the damage of the previous part of the match. But HBK makes his comebacks like it's only 5 minutes into the match, instead of 20 minutes in. He doesn't put over the previous 20 minutes of damage/fatigue at all. He's the same as Kurt Angle, neither guy has any idea what long-term selling is. Or they maybe they do know, but they just refuse to do it. Either way, the result is the same. Completely irrelevant. Completely. This is the oldest fallacy in the book. Just because other's think HBK is a great worker, doesn't mean he is. Doesn't matter who they are. Besides, even the most hardcore anti-HBK people will likely concede that he's at least a good worker, while many, including people who are accused of being biased, view him as a very good worker.

Far and away, really? I'd bet that HDA and MVC had more great matches than that whole list combined. Of course, ignoring any hyperbole, HDA and MVC likely had a larger quantity of high quality matches than any individual team on that list. And comparing best vs. best is no contest. Granted, you might prefer those other teams, but calling them "far and away the best" is different than "far and away my favourites".

I've only seen up to May. Now that that's out of the way, I'd say Aries vs. Gibson from 4/16 was the best ROH match I've seen this year, with Punk/Spanky vs. Lethal/Joe a close second. Ironically, neither of those matches would crack ROH's top 5 from 2004.

I have to disagree, that honor clearly goes to Kurt Angle I don't know about HBK. Flair was certainly overrated by both workrate fans and others for many years, and now people are starting to realize he really wasn't an elite in-ring worker. I don't think HBK's ever been generally looked at as a super great worker by those who are workrate fans. Other than one's who were also fanboys of course. And overall, I'd say it's more ridiculous to claim Flair is THE best in-ring worker of all time compared to saying that HBK is ONE of the best of all time. But that's just me.

I think this whole thread was lost when it was suggested that WWF in 1999 was better than ECW in 1999. I mean really. ECW in 1999 was certainly not fantastic, but compared to a promotion that produced one of the worst years for match quality in wrestling history, it would certainly seem like it was.

Holy Demon Army Miracle Violence Connection The Funks The Hart Foundation The British Bulldogs TenKoji The Steiners The Midnight Express That should be a nice mish-mash of teams.

If one wanted to factor in both in-ring ability and accomplishments, I would imagine that Kojima would be #1. You know, that whole 4-crown thing. But then one has to remember that it's PWI and chuckle a bit. It's essentially for WWE fanboys, and they throw in guys like Kojima or Tenzan to make it appear like they know what they're talking about.

You mean Awesome vs. Tanaka at ONS wasn't ****1/4? Who knows, maybe Dave's ratings are based off a 10 star system these days.

Is WWE intentionally trying to kill their tag division? Their tag champs have been jobbing in singles matches, jobbing in handicap matches and jobbing to the masterlock. This is like WCW-level booking.

Now _that_ would have been contrived...I liked how they did it. It seemed more real (well, as real as a fall of a stage in wrestling can...) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, it would have made perfect sense given his promo. You know, logic and all that. It's as simple as having Hardy realize where they were and that he was in a position to seriously fuck up Edge. But hey, why follow up on a promo the guy did 5 minutes before the match?

The bump was done poorly. They should have done some sort of dramatic pause, with Hardy yelling something about "taking Edge to hell with him". That bump has been played already, so just doing the bump itself doesn't mean a whole lot.

Assuming it counts as pro-wrestling and is including overall fame, Ali vs. Inoki. If Ali vs. Inoki doesn't count and is including overall fame, Hogan vs. Andre WMIII. If we're talking fame among people who are actually wrestling fans, HBK vs. Hart Survivor Series 97.

Can't go wrong with Champion Carnival 1993. Misawa-Kawada, Misawa-Hansen, Kawada-Taue, Misawa-Kobashi, Kawada-Kobashi, Misawa-Gordy were all ****+ for my money. Kawada-Williams was supposed to be up there too, but I haven't seen it yet. That's 6, possibly 7 matches that would stand as MOTYCs in this day and age. Of course, 1995 had 7 too. Kawada-Akiyama, Taue-Kobashi, Misawa-Kobashi, Kawada-Taue, Misawa-Kawada, Misawa-Taue and Misawa-Taue in the finals. As for G-1's, it's been so long since I've seen any of the older ones. 1991 had the great finals and 1998 was an all around solid tournament, but I don't really remember anything more specific.

Balrog is the original (and true) name of the Spanish bullfighter in Street Fighter II. Me and DrVenkman are buds, so I was just teasing him about using the American name.

You mean Balrog. Jerk.

So they are throwing kayfabe out the window for this one match. Hey, fine by me.

Yep, I pretty much agree. New Japan screwed themselves by sending Tanahashi over to be fodder for Rikio. Tanahashi winning both the New Japan Cup and the G1 would have been huge, but alas, New Japan messed it up again. If that's the case, then I guess not having Nakamura win is for the best. If New Japan knew this (which would mean Nakamura wasn't an option), it makes the move to send Tanahashi to NOAH even more puzzling. If Kawada is gonna be around for a while, then him winning the G1 would have been a fairly good mid-term move for New Japan. Getting 2-3 Dome Shows out of Kawada and an IWGP title reign certainly seems worth it. One thing is for sure. All of our hypothetical scenarios leave New Japan in much better shape than they are now

Even if Kobashi won the title and they did a joint show down the line, who would Kobashi really job the title to? He's only jobbed clean in a singles match once in the past what, 3 years? And Joe is the only guy who could really beat Kobashi without it seeming completely ridiculous. But even so, I can't imagine Misawa would ever let Kobashi job to a US indy guy (no matter how great or credible he is). It's gotta be non-title. As for the tag match, I wonder if they're just gonna throw kayfabe out the window for this one and just do a straight up tag-team dream match. With those teams, they kind of have to right? Kobashi/Homicide is no problem, but Joe and Low Ki working as a team would never fly if they were still keeping to the storylines. With ROH's audience, I don't think throwing kayfabe out for one match is gonna be a problem. Hell, it already happened with Punk vs. Cabana.

I'm not sure about having an outsider win the G1. If it was me booking, I'd firstly never have let Tanahashi go to NOAH to face Rikio. Then I'd have Tanahashi win the G1 against an undefeated Fujita in the finals to setup Tanahashi vs. Fujita for the October Dome Show. New Japan has to pull the trigger on Tanahashi soon, or else he'll never have the credibility to draw. With Fujita as champ, now would have been the perfect time to give Tanahashi a big rub against a monster champion. And failing that, I would have used Nakamura instead. Even if it doesn't draw great in October, it still puts one of their young guys over huge. I don't think there's any doubt that Tanahashi and Nakamura are going to be the top 2 guys 3 years from now. The only question is will they be credible draws, or just guys who are over with the hardcore crowd, but will never put any asses in the seats.

Fair enough. As an aside, I just watched Cena-Jericho. And well, Jericho is awesome for dragging Cena to a decent match. Jericho being way over also made me happy. I hope he doesn't get buried after this.