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The obvious yes group = Hogan, Warrior, Sid, Chyna, Savage, Luger and pre back injury HBK. Rock - I'd say he tried 'em briefly but quit. Austin - Yes, but he didn't abuse them. Foley - If he did, he needs a refund from his supplier Sting - I'm gonna say no, just looked like a naturally big guy to me Bret Hart - see Sting Jericho - Off and on. When Jericho had a 6 pack, he was on 'em. When he didn't, he wasn't. He was always one of the easiest to tell when he was cycling. Owen Hart - I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, although there were times he looked bigger than his usual size. Steamboat - I'll say he was clean because The Dragon was never excessively big nor puffy looking.

Yes it is just your blind markism because Orton sucks. And while JBL/Lashley would likely be the second worst match you could headline Armageddon with, it just so happens that Orton/Taker HIAC is the worst because no one really wants to see that either and they're doing it anyway.

Orton may not be using now, but he definitely did before his shoulder surgery. He looked to be at least 20-30 pounds bigger before hand, and it was all muscle. The interaction he had with Vince where McMahon was picking on him when he wore a suit or a shirt that was at least two sizes two big even made my mother notice he'd lost a lot of mass.

Fire Marshall Kurt's voice with that mouthpiece is irritating the hell out of me.

How do you go about spelling "suck" wrong? Jesus.

The only prominent people who come to mind that could be clean that aren't sloppy (Big Show, Rosey, Viscera) are RVD, Benjamin, London (not necessarily a big name but one that fits my argument) and possibly Cena. Everyone else strikes me as someone who has used, or is still on 'roids.

They almost have to give Angle the belt next Sunday and figure out how to salvage Cena ASAP, even if the plan was to feed him to HHH later on this year, or early in '06. The longer they drag this out, the bigger the backlash is going to be, and as it is they're losing "top" guys left and right due to injury, contract issues, botched pushes and Eddie's sudden passing. If they can't eventually figure out how to make a top face without a 10-20 year career (Flair, HBK, 'Taker & Benoit may be the ONLY top notch faces they have right now) to build off of they are fucked in a major way.

In no way, shape, or form did JBL ever become a credible champion. He was always potrayed as chickenshit and, as far as I know, never won a match clean because he always had get to help from somebody ALL THE TIME. At least Orton can hold his own ground and put on a good match when paired with the right person, JBL can't. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I didn't say he became a credible champion. And are you really trying to argue that a guy who needs his daddy's help to win matches can hold his own ground?

Don't mix up Orton with JBL. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> As much as JBL's reign sucked he at least became a credible Main Eventer as a result of it. Orton lost whatever little credibility he had the last time they put the belt on him. I don't see him doing any better this time around since his character has been almost exactly the same for the last couple of years and he doesn't seem willing or able to add to it. For his few fans, that's great. For everyone else he won't shake the stigma of being a complete failure.

This is true. The kids here hate to admit that they enjoyed watching Orton earlier last year when he was just the cocky legend killer heel. Randall is a great heel, and he's leading WWE to the future. He's the whole package, yet even more. His look oozes superstar. WWE can easily make him a mainstream star, because women will just flock to him. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So what do you to please the other 80-90% of the audience?

Why does Vince hate the fans so much? I can understand taking the belt off of Batista, but I have absolutely no interest in an Orton led SD especially with Eddie no longer being there to cancel out his ineptitude at the top of the card. I just hope it takes 10 cheapshots and run-ins from Cowboy Bob and someone else otherwise they'll kill off Batista's character in the process. I'm going out on a limb and predicting that an Orton/Undertaker led Armageddon a week before Christmas will do the worst buyrate in WWE history which is the only thing that would make me smile about an Orton reign.

How many Olympic gold medalists dropped dead due to steroids related activities less than a decade from their triumph? If you can't see how that would be an immense story, then you're just not paying attention.

They can build Monty back up if need be. They can't do the same for the buzz Christian's jump created. If they fuck it up now, they can't get it back. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oh, I know that ending would suck, but I'm trying to think with the TNA mindset for Jarrett's losses in mind. They almost need to have Christian take Monty to the limit by going 15-20 minutes, and then have either guy beat Jeff in half that time the following month. If Christian has to lose, then they need to have someone interfere and that be the primary reason he gets beat. He would then easily take out the guy who cost him the match the next month and challenge Monty for the title saying that he only won because of the interference. As you said, Monty can easily gain his heat back, whereas a clean Christian loss in his debut would put him in the same spot that he was in shortly after being treated like a jobber in the Cena/Jericho situation a couple of months ago.

My guess is that Monty/Christian ends in a double CO/DQ type situation and they end up putting on a 3 way where Jarrett loses the title the following month, but not the match as one guy (likely Christian) pins the other (likely Monty) after Jarrett uses the guitar on the loser to pay off the title change that's needed and give everyone an outcome from the match they didn't get this month. I'm not saying I like it, but it's where I see them going, especially because it would extend Monty/Jarrett to another PPV.

But Rulon Gardner never did anything outside of amateur wrestling. Kurt Angle is a prominent person in an internationally known wrestling company. Trying to compare the two is laughable. We're not trying to say that if a luge gold medalist died it would be a big deal, but because Angle was a legit athlete who is on TV every week, if he died from steroid related activities it would be, because he clearly never failed a test in his amateur days. For him to die from complications related to steroids or something along those lines would firmly point the finger at his pro wrestling days and that would be a major story.

That's all well and good, but there's nothing about Flair's lifestyle that would indicate that he's at risk for dying and needs to be watched over. Angle opted to have that alternative neck surgery so he wouldn't miss time. We already know he has some nerve damage because you can see it when he starts trying to feel his hands after taking big bumps. It's more than likely he's juiced up since turning pro, and again he is a legitimate athlete who was winning a gold medal less than 10 years ago. I really don't see why anyone would think it could be anyone else. Don't think in terms of a wrestling fan, but as a news reporter and you'll see if Angle drops dead anytime soon with an enlarged heart and/or any other obvious signs of recent steroid (ab)use that that would be an IMMENSE news story, so much so that it would easily be bigger than the steroid scandal in baseball.

The point is that Angle won't be 37 until December 9th and won a Gold Medal less than a decade ago. For him to go from world class athlete potentially to the grave in less than 10 years would be far more stunning than a man in his 50's passing away suddenly, regardless of how famous he is.

It would have to be Angle because he is an Olympic Gold medalist, which instantly makes him a national story. Flair dying tomorrow wouldn't suprise anyone since he'd in his mid to late 50's, and has been a pro for over 30 years. Add Hogan into that mix, even though he's a little bit younger. Austin doesn't wrestle anymore, and I think it's pretty obvious that Angle is the only one who makes sense here. I fail to see how HHH would garner enough national significance to dwarf the coverage Eddie got.

I think the Dean/Eugene match had to be in character. There were a lot of kids there (and watching tonight), and if being able to laugh at Eugene's stupidity and Dean's bump at the end helped them get through the show so be it.

I'd like a link as well since I now have to find ways to watch shows I used to get all the time before my cable lineup changed. Thanks in advance.

It's not something that I would assume Orton demanded. I wouldn't criticize him for that decision that was likely WWE's decision. Why did they even do Orton/Cena to begin with? The other matches made some sense, the tag champions against each other, Angle/Shelton, Regal/Flair and Shawn/Rey were "wrestling matches", the diva battle royal was for light entertainment... Orton/Cena was just senseless. Should've done Chavo/JBL or HHH/Benoit for Raw main event instead but I'm guessing WWE wanted Raw's #1 face to close the show. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'll give them a pass on the ME simply because the final image of the show was far more important than anything that went on from bell to bell. No one will remember that Orton/Cena match, but no one will forget the visual.

So is posting a comment, but that didn't stop you from doing it three times in a row

I have TWDC and it's working just fine. You likely didnt pay a bill or something. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't have digital cable, and the bill is paid because every other channel is working but the one I used to receive PPV on. I guess they pulled it from the lineup sometime between the end of last month and today without any warning Does anyone know how I can watch this show after it's over without waiting for the DVD? I wouldn't ask but it's been over 10 years since I had to worry about missing PPVs while I was home in time to watch them.

Does anybody here happen to have Time Warner Cable? If so, are you not getting the show either? I was able to watch every PPV before this one, so I'm kind of confused why my channel is blank.

What he said.