What if the WWE fans...

[Guest RickyChosyu]

If you think ECW-style fans would cheer a highly technical match or anything OTHER than a "holy shit!" spot, you're dreaming.

You didn't see the Malenko vs. Guerrero 2/3 falls match, did you?

That's because both men were leaving for WCW. Even then, Eddy could barely even get through his fairwell speech because some ignorant motherfucker in the audience was accusing him of "selling out" and what-not.

 

That kind of shit makes me nauseous. Fuck ECW.

[Guest Brian]

And Benoit, Guerrero, and Malenko weren't really going to ECW to make a name for them self, they were using it as a stepping stone back into the US. They had mainly been wrestling overseas for the last two years or so.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

And Flair, Guerrero, and Malenko weren't really going to ECW to make a name for them self, they were using it as a stepping stone back into the US. They had mainly been wrestling overseas for the last two years or so.

Don't you mean Benoit instead of Flair?

 

Actually, I would have loved to see the reaction of the ECW fans if Flair had ever walked into the arena one night. I'm guessing they would have automatically creamed themselves at the fact that it's RIC FLAIR, and then pissed on themselves in fear immediately after remembering how many times they made fun of him for not answering any of Douglas's "challenges."

[Guest Flyboy]

No...I think he means Flair. I have a clip of ECW Finishers that shows Flair giving Lance Storm a top rope powerbomb, I THINK...

[Guest RickyChosyu]

No...I think he means Flair. I have a clip of ECW Finishers that shows Flair giving Lance Storm a top rope powerbomb, I THINK...

That was Chris Candido doing his "Blond Bombshell" finisher. Flair would never lower himself to actually answering the challenge of Shane "don't call me Dean" Douglas.

[Guest Your Olympic Hero]

Can you imagine all the shit Tazz would get for becoming what he's become?

[Guest Flyboy]

No...I think he means Flair.  I have a clip of ECW Finishers that shows Flair giving Lance Storm a top rope powerbomb, I THINK...

That was Chris Candido doing his "Blond Bombshell" finisher. Flair would never lower himself to actually answering the challenge of Shane "don't call me Dean" Douglas.

Ahhh... I stand corrected, then.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

I don't think WWE fans are capable of the ammount of "rabid-osity" </e&c> that ECW fans had. Granted, in the early going they were alive for good wrestling..but toward the end they were just blood-hungry.

[Guest Nezbyte]

No...I think he means Flair.  I have a clip of ECW Finishers that shows Flair giving Lance Storm a top rope powerbomb, I THINK...

That was Chris Candido doing his "Blond Bombshell" finisher. Flair would never lower himself to actually answering the challenge of Shane "don't call me Dean" Douglas.

What the hell do you have against ECW? They were entertaining, very.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

What the hell do you have against ECW? They were entertaining, very.

Read any number of my responses durring this thread and I think you'll see reason enough. I don't feel like repeating myself when the explanation is literally posted all over this topic.

[Guest Nezbyte]

What the hell do you have against ECW? They were entertaining, very.

Read any number of my responses durring this thread and I think you'll see reason enough. I don't feel like repeating myself when the explanation is literally posted all over this topic.

Explain WHY not just some BS relative ranting.

[Guest griffinmills]

The last thing we need is a return of the mutants.

What's with that name? It's fucking retarded.

 

They're not Ninjas ... or turtles.

The nickname is quite old, check out google usenet archives if you are interested.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

Entertainment differs from people to people. Myself, I hate the 'hardcore' style of wrestling..if only because a handful of people can make it look good without doing something stupid. I'd rather see actual -wrestling- in the ring than somebody getting brained by a chair, or a cheese grater to the head, etc..

[Guest Nezbyte]

They were entertaining, i didnt say to everyone. But they had to have been or ECW wouldnt've lasted as long

 

All hail CZW, the next ECW (minus bankrupcy)~!

 

CZDub, CZDub, CZDub, CZDub, CZDub~!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest RickyChosyu]

What the hell do you have against ECW? They were entertaining, very.

Read any number of my responses durring this thread and I think you'll see reason enough. I don't feel like repeating myself when the explanation is literally posted all over this topic.

Explain WHY not just some BS relative ranting.

I already explained why I hated the way the mutants were brain-washed into not only hating Ric Flair but thinking that he was afraid of Shane Douglas, and also how they completely turned on Sabu on a whim, because they didn't know how to think for themselves on the matter. I also referenced how Eddy, Dean, and Lynn were treated the same way, and how the mutants were exposed as complete self righteous air-heads by the Pillman thing. I can't be bothered to recite my entire explanation of why the shit Paul E. passed off as "wrestling" got over, because I already tried to and obviously it didn't sink in for you. If you can't comprehend the complexities of something like that, then fine, but there's no need to try to generalize it into "relative ranting" or whatever you were trying to say there.

[Guest NoCalMike]

I think ECW fans got a bad rap, but it was because of the fans in the later days. If you back to shows from '94 to early '96, ECW would have maybe one "extreme" match on the card. Fans in those years were just as much into Benoit/Al Snow as they were into Axl/Ian deathmatches. The fans responded to a good product, whether it be good brawling, or good technical wrestling. When ecw started to expand, they had to advertise as something different from WWF/WCW, thus they had to resort to becoming more violent. Slowly, fans of the big two would show up to ECW shows solely because they saw a commercial/ad/flyer with a picture of someone going thru a table, hence the decline of the ECW fans. In the early days of ECW, you NEVER, and I mean, NEVER heard fans chanting, "we want a table" because quite frankly, they didn't care. If it was used, then so be it, but nothing lost if it wasn't used. Let's not forget that like many others mentioned, Benoit/Guererro/Malenko/Mysterio/Psicosis/Al Snow etc.....were all over in ECW, when no one "fans" from WWE/WCW gave a shit about workrate. They were over because they were GREAT wrestlers, and had Great matches.

[Guest Spaceman Spiff]

No...I think he means Flair.  I have a clip of ECW Finishers that shows Flair giving Lance Storm a top rope powerbomb, I THINK...

That was Chris Candido doing his "Blond Bombshell" finisher. Flair would never lower himself to actually answering the challenge of Shane "don't call me Dean" Douglas.

Ahhh... I stand corrected, then.

Not to be all high-and-mighty, but I think the top rope powerbomb alone would have tipped you off that it wasn't Flair.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I think ECW fans got a bad rap, but it was because of the fans in the later days. If you back to shows from '94 to early '96, ECW would have maybe one "extreme" match on the card. Fans in those years were just as much into Benoit/Al Snow as they were into Axl/Ian deathmatches. The fans responded to a good product, whether it be good brawling, or good technical wrestling. When ecw started to expand, they had to advertise as something different from WWF/WCW, thus they had to resort to becoming more violent. Slowly, fans of the big two would show up to ECW shows solely because they saw a commercial/ad/flyer with a picture of someone going thru a table, hence the decline of the ECW fans. In the early days of ECW, you NEVER, and I mean, NEVER heard fans chanting, "we want a table" because quite frankly, they didn't care. If it was used, then so be it, but nothing lost if it wasn't used. Let's not forget that like many others mentioned, Benoit/Guererro/Malenko/Mysterio/Psicosis/Al Snow etc.....were all over in ECW, when no one "fans" from WWE/WCW gave a shit about workrate. They were over because they were GREAT wrestlers, and had Great matches.

It depends what you mean by "extreme" because there certainly weren't many normal matches. Every tag match usualy had a major brawling enphasis, and the only singles matches that weren't total brawls were usually between jobbers, with a few exceptions. I mean, every main event was a garbage match, Raven and Dreamer were constantly having brawls with each other and everyone else they faced, and there was usually an Axl/Ian death match on every show.

 

Second, very little of it was "good" it was just taboo for the time period. Benoit/Malenko/Guererro did things no one had seen before, and the garbage brawling had rarely been done to that degree before. It wasn't a good product, it was an originial product in a period that the Big Two weren't providing one. Just because it was new diferent doesn't mean it was good.

 

They never chanted "we want a table", but they were still psychopaths. Like I said, when JT Smith went over the top rope and landed head first on the concrete, they actually taunted him with "you fucked up." Essentially, the more high-levle talent they lost and the more tired their ideas became, the more they started running things like brawling, tables, barbed wire, and blood into the ground. The fact that they continued doing this nearly four years after the entire thing had lost it's appeal speaks vollumes over how stubborn they all were about letting it die already.

 

Benoit/Guererro/Malenko and the Luchadores got over in ECW because the type of work they did had never been seen before in the U.S. and they got over because of it (Al Snow's biggest contribution in ECW was the Head gimick, which hardly contributes to work-rate). Even then, Benoit/Malenko were usually forced to partake in the garbagy crap that took place in the tag division constantly, and Benoit's most pimped ECW match is essentially just a glorified squash. Eddy/Dean had a great series, but it failed in many ways because unlike the Japanese crowds they were used to wrestling for, ECW fans just didn't know how to shut up and pay attention to subtleties. Even the luchadores had to add chair and table spots to their matches to appease the mutants (witness Rey/Juvi were Rey's post-match powerbomb through a table gets a bigger pop then the Splash Mountain/Ranna spot that ended the match). Besides, they were only trying to get their foot in the door to get to higher places, and after they left, there were simply no more great workers anymore.

[Guest gangsteruwa]

All hail CZW, the next ECW (minus bankrupcy)~!

 

I don't think you should call CZW the next ECW. They have differences and by saying that it makes CZW look like ECW wannabes. Anyone that has watched their stuff from 2001 and on would agree with me (ignore the "(M)ECW Invasion").

 

Personally I don't know if I would want the WWE fans to be like the ECW fans. Sure I would like for the WWE fans to pop for good wrestling like the ECW fans did on occasions. Sure I would love for the WWE fans to be hot for most of the show. However I would rather the wrestlers go out and give it their all and MAKE the fans get that rabid. If current WWE wrestlers (except the Bossman) says they are giving it their all, they are bullshitting you.

 

Yes the ECW fans were rabid and really into the group, but that is because the wrestlers raised the bar and got the people into it. Sure they used "High Spots", blood, and stupid stunts, but they also used great wrestling.

[Guest Goodear]

I don't know what you mean by BEST, I just chose two guys who worked a more slow-paced match. ECW fans weren't willing to sit through those, no matter who was wrestling.

 

I don't think thats a fair thing to say, since ECW didn't really deal in slow paced matches. The slowest one I can think of is the Tully-Shane match and as you noted later, it sucked. Even the matches that weren't crazy brawls generally had a load of movement and never really got into the roll around the mat for 10 minute feel.

 

And Jesus, ECW would be LUCKY to get guys like Albert and Bob Holly wrestling for them. The"burtal matches with awesome high spots" that you speak of never happened.

 

The thing is, if ECW had Albert or Bob, they wouldn't be working the same style they are working now. Albert would be booked as a total monster and Bob would be stiffing everyone in a 10 foot radius. The best examples of "Brutal matches with high spots" would be the Tanaka-Awesome series, Tajiri/Whipwreck v. FBI, and Cactus v. Mikey .

 

Simply put, Paul Heyman managed to train his audience to enjoy wrestlers like Sandman, the Public Enemy, Sabu, Mikey Whipreak, Mike Awesome, Shane Douglas, Tommy Dreamer, Taz, and the Dudley Boyz by conditioning them to enjoy chairs, tables, crowd brawling, and "high-spots." You see, despite the fact that none of them were good wrestlers (Rob would eventually get decent, but at the time he was pure shit), the fans would pop for them whenever they did something that had been branded as "extreme" and thus, their true ability (or lack, there of) was masked. This is why all those acts failed upon trying to make it in the big two: becaues those fans hadn't been conditioned to enjoy the things that all those guys were doing, and quickly caught on to the fact that none of them were really any good.

 

Thats like untrue. Public Enemy, Sabu, and The Sandman are the only cases where people got over purely due to hardcore brawling. Mikey got over because of his jobber-to-hero push, Awesome got over because of the Tanaka series, Douglas and The Dudleyz got over due to venomous promos, Dreamer got over from the Raven feud, and Taz from suplexing.

 

And all of their acts didn't fail in the Big Two because they weren't any good. Sabu's act was working in WCW before he got booted out. Mikey (who is a good worker) never had a chance in WCW since he never got put over anyone, wasn't given any gimmick, and never got within sniffing distance of a microphone. Sandman (who SUCKS) got totally buried when Eric Bischoff kicked his ass. The Dudleyz got over and aren't terrible. Awesome is in a bad spot since he can't physically dominate in the big leagues like he can in an indy, but that doesn't make him horrible.

[Guest NoCalMike]

<<<<I already explained why I hated the way the mutants were brain-washed into not only hating Ric Flair but thinking that he was afraid of Shane Douglas, and also how they completely turned on Sabu on a whim, because they didn't know how to think for themselves on the matter. >>>>

 

Brainwashed? Ermm....I think it is called working the crowd, and not cheaply like 90% of crowd heat in the WWE is gained. As far as hating Ric Flair, how do you know if anyone hated Ric Flair? Just because they acted a certain way during the show, doesn't mean they really hated the man, and even if so, I think Douglas had heat towards him for not giving younger guys a chance/push which many other wrestlers have said the same about Flair, so I wouldn't exactly say Shane Douglas "convinced" fans to hate Flair......

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Not to call it the exception to the rule, but I found that ECW in the Mike Awesome era-on to be some pretty damn good wrestling and a lot less of the gore and bore that plagued ECW in it's "heyday". I mean, there was the occasional new jack match and balcony dive, but other than that ECW put out a wrestling-oriented program.

 

Hell, Tanaka/Ballz from Hardcore Heaven 2000 is probably the closest America will get to seeing an All Japan match IMO. Sure, it had chairs, but DAMN did that match rock.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Even the matches that weren't crazy brawls generally had a load of movement and never really got into the roll around the mat for 10 minute feel.

 

You don't think that could have anything to do with Heyman catering to his audience? Like I said before, Eddy/Dean rarely got the respect they deserved in their series (accept the last one, and even then...) because the fans had absolutely no notion of what sitting down, shutting up, and appreciating the subtleties of what they were trying to do. Paul knew what the Mutants wanted and, for the most part, stuck to it.

 

The thing is, if ECW had Albert or Bob, they wouldn't be working the same style they are working now. Albert would be booked as a total monster and Bob would be stiffing everyone in a 10 foot radius. The best examples of "Brutal matches with high spots" would be the Tanaka-Awesome series, Tajiri/Whipwreck v. FBI, and Cactus v. Mikey.

 

Albert would probably be squashing jobbers inbetween being Raven's body guard, and if he stuck around long enough, being added to Spike Dudley's "hit list." Hardly anything to write home about. As for Holly "stifing" people, I'm not sure what you mean. More likely, he'd be put in a tag team with Scotty Anton for lack of anything better to do. The matches you listed were listless spot-fests with "extreme" aspects that got over because of that. The first two were fun, but run into the ground, and the latter one was Foley doing what does best.

 

Mikey got over because of his jobber-to-hero push, Awesome got over because of the Tanaka series, Douglas and The Dudleyz got over due to venomous promos, Dreamer got over from the Raven feud, and Taz from suplexing.

 

I fail to see the destinction in any of those cases. Mikey was the definitive jobber who bumped more than average, so he got over. Awesome put people through tables a lot, so he got over. Douglas, on top of being pushed to the moon and put over everyone, used to the brawling/garbage style just as much as everyone, mainly because he had no actual talent at that point. His promo heat was derived of swearing and putting down Flair. The Dudley Boyz used tables to get over just as much as Sabu did, if not more. Their matches were always horrible, but they got away with it for using weapons/tables and brawling. Really, the Public Enemy all over again, plus, more profantiy-laden promos than even Douglas. Dreamer's matches were pure garbage all the time, and so were Taz's, and both would prove to be totally exposed in normal matches. Taz is also the third person in this little group to get over with profanity-laden promos and the second person to get over by challenging people to matches that he knew would never answer. What a shock.

 

Sabu's act was working in WCW before he got booted out.

 

Sabu was so worthless and broken down by that point that using tables wouldn't have gotten him far. Sabu was an Indy guy for life, and any short-lived fame from using tables would have gotten over no better than Public Enemy's run.

 

Mikey (who is a good worker) never had a chance in WCW since he never got put over anyone, wasn't given any gimmick, and never got within sniffing distance of a microphone.

 

Mikey is, again, the definitive jobber. He looks like one, talks like one, and wrestles like one. It was this "scrub who wins world titles" appeal that got him over, along with Foley. It takes more than that to succeed in the big two.

 

The Dudleyz got over and aren't terrible.

 

The tables got over, not the Dudleyz. Not they don't have them, Bubba is a comedy wrestler being pushed, and D-Von is in gimick hell and already being over-shadowed by someone worth pushing.

 

Awesome is in a bad spot since he can't physically dominate in the big leagues like he can in an indy, but that doesn't make him horrible.

 

Awesome is a one-trick pony who owes all of his success to Tanaka and others bumping for him. Not only did his size decrease after leaving Philly, but his work-rate did too, and that's because Tanaka wasn't there to carry him anymore.

 

Brainwashed? Ermm....I think it is called working the crowd, and not cheaply like 90% of crowd heat in the WWE is gained. As far as hating Ric Flair, how do you know if anyone hated Ric Flair? Just because they acted a certain way during the show, doesn't mean they really hated the man, and even if so, I think Douglas had heat towards him for not giving younger guys a chance/push which many other wrestlers have said the same about Flair, so I wouldn't exactly say Shane Douglas "convinced" fans to hate Flair......

 

Oh God. 1) Douglas used more blatant cheap heat tactics to get over than anyone else I can name off the top of my head, barring the Dudleyz. 2) He convinced them that Flair was afraid of him, and that he was better than Flair. They turned on Flair because of Douglas, and that's plenty hatefull enough. Sure, other wrestlers had issues with Flair, but you don't hear Lex Luger cutting shoot promos on Flair in some obscure wrestling promotion in hopes of getting himself over, and Luger has way more reason to resent Flair than Douglas can even dream of. That's why Luger is sitting at home, financially secure, and Douglas is trying to figuer out when Rob Black is going to give him his pay check.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Not to call it the exception to the rule, but I found that ECW in the Mike Awesome era-on to be some pretty damn good wrestling and a lot less of the gore and bore that plagued ECW in it's "heyday". I mean, there was the occasional new jack match and balcony dive, but other than that ECW put out a wrestling-oriented program.

 

Hell, Tanaka/Ballz from Hardcore Heaven 2000 is probably the closest America will get to seeing an All Japan match IMO. Sure, it had chairs, but DAMN did that match rock.

None of it was any good, though. The over-booking always brought it down and the only main-stays they had were worthless, anyway. Plus, everything they had done in their heyday was old, so Heyman tried lots and lots of new things, all of which failed. He even tried to do the Raven/Dreamer redux, and managed to fuck that up.

 

I just don't understand the Ballz/Tanaka comparison at all. I like Tanaka, but aside from some of his "Misawa Jr." tendancies, I don't see his style being anywhere near that of AJPW heavyweights. I did enjoy that match, for what it was, though. Tanaka is the Deathmatch king, now that Honma is has been taken from us.

[Guest Goodear]

= Me

= You

 

Even the matches that weren't crazy brawls generally had a load of movement and never really got into the roll around the mat for 10 minute feel.

 

You don't think that could have anything to do with Heyman catering to his audience? Like I said before, Eddy/Dean rarely got the respect they deserved in their series (accept the last one, and even then...) because the fans had absolutely no notion of what sitting down, shutting up, and appreciating the subtleties of what they were trying to do. Paul knew what the Mutants wanted and, for the most part, stuck to it.

 

I don't think anyone in an entertainment medium really caters to a specific audience and fulfills all of their wants and desires. The entertainer produces its product and the audience decides wether or not they like it. I think Paul, given his talent roster, decided that most of them were best served in brawls, so that is what he booked. When I watch old ECW matches that weren't brawls, the fans generally did keep a little quiet unless they were appreciatively clapping after a sequence or chanting someone's name (Jerry Lynn, Super Crazy, Kid Kash, Luchadore matches, and the Michinoku Pro matches are good examples of this behavior).

 

Albert would probably be squashing jobbers inbetween being Raven's body guard, and if he stuck around long enough, being added to Spike Dudley's "hit list." Hardly anything to write home about.

 

I don't think so. Albert (who wouldn't be called Albert anymore) would have gotten more of a 911/Rhyno type thing except he would actually wrestle for more than 1 minute at a time.

 

As for Holly "stifing" people, I'm not sure what you mean. More likely, he'd be put in a tag team with Scotty Anton for lack of anything better to do.

 

Holly has a reputation for striking, thats what I meant by "stiffing." He'd probably be back to his "Big Shot"/actually Hardcore" days if Paul had a hold of him. Paul made a pretty good living making the best out of what he had. I figure he'd be able to use a Holly or Albert just fine.

 

The matches you listed were listless spot-fests with "extreme" aspects that got over because of that. The first two were fun, but run into the ground, and the latter one was Foley doing what he does best.

 

Mikey/Tajiri and FBI got over because Tony Mamaluke would bump like a pinball and Tajiri/Mikey would pump out new double team moves every two matches. "Extreme" was not what got that over. Foley doing what he does best is bumping. Foley/Whipwreck really wasn't like that.

 

I fail to see the destinction in any of those cases.

 

Huh? Okay, your premise was that those guys only got over primarily because they "extreme" brawled, I'm trying to show that while they may have brawled, that isn't what got them over.

 

Mikey was the definitive jobber who bumped more than average, so he got over.

 

That's not due to hardcore brawling though.

 

Douglas, on top of being pushed to the moon and put over everyone, used to the brawling/garbage style just as much as everyone, mainly because he had no actual talent at that point. His promo heat was derived of swearing and putting down Flair.

 

Douglas wasn't a brawler or garbage wrestler. He used more of a WCW style offence where he would do some punches, some weardowns, and a belly-to-belly. He was also the sneaky bastard who would cheat his ass off and talk shit, but he certainely didn't get over on his ability to swing a chair.

 

The Dudley Boyz used tables to get over just as much as Sabu did, if not more. Their matches were always horrible, but they got away with it for using weapons/tables and brawling. Really, the Public Enemy all over again, plus, more profantiy-laden promos than even Douglas.

 

Except they didn't just put people through tables and get over. The Dudleys existed a long while and really weren't over until they added something to their game. That thing turned out to be was promos where they ripped the crap out of the fans.

 

Dreamer's matches were pure garbage all the time, and so were Taz's, and both would prove to be totally exposed in normal matches. Taz is also the third person in this little group to get over with profanity-laden promos and the second person to get over by challenging people to matches that he knew would never answer. What a shock.

 

Dreamer bled like a pig forever before Cactus and Raven finally got him over as ECW's favorite son. It wasn't bleeding that got him over, but the angle in which he was involved. Taz wasn't a brawler, but a guy who would use wacky suplexes and a chokehold.

 

Mikey (who is a good worker) never had a chance in WCW since he never got put over anyone, wasn't given any gimmick, and never got within sniffing distance of a microphone.

 

Mikey is, again, the definitive jobber. He looks like one, talks like one, and wrestles like one. It was this "scrub who wins world titles" appeal that got him over, along with Foley. It takes more than that to succeed in the big two.

 

Mikey could work and showed it in his WCW debut against Kidman. But if you think anyone is going to get over when they are given absolutely nothing, you're wrong. If you think he wrestles like a jobber, I don't know what to tell you, but I think you are wrong.

 

The tables got over, not the Dudleyz. Not they don't have them, Bubba is a comedy wrestler being pushed, and D-Von is in gimick hell and already being over-shadowed by someone worth pushing.

 

They got over and they aren't bad wrestlers. That's all I was saying. That WWE can't figure out what to do with people they didn't grow isn't just extended to ECW you know what I am saying?

 

Awesome is a one-trick pony who owes all of his success to Tanaka and others bumping for him. Not only did his size decrease after leaving Philly, but his work-rate did too, and that's because Tanaka wasn't there to carry him anymore.

 

He's been injured and gets stuck with That 70s Guy and Canadian #3 and you think his workrate is the problem? He and Tanaka both bumped like champs by the way during their matches, it wasn't like Awesome didn't take his share.

[Guest Nezbyte]

Ricky, i still want to know why you hate ECW so much. Yeah, they're not All Japan and the wrestlers arnt Misawa, Kawada, or Kobashi; Paul took what he had (coal) and made some diamonds. He's a great thinker who had some money management problems. He provided his fans with what THEY wanted to see. If they wanted a 60 min match - he would've given it to them. There's no coincidence that many big stars passed through there.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I don't think anyone in an entertainment medium really caters to a specific audience and fulfills all of their wants and desires. The entertainer produces its product and the audience decides wether or not they like it. I think Paul, given his talent roster, decided that most of them were best served in brawls, so that is what he booked. When I watch old ECW matches that weren't brawls, the fans generally did keep a little quiet unless they were appreciatively clapping after a sequence or chanting someone's name (Jerry Lynn, Super Crazy, Kid Kash, Luchadore matches, and the Michinoku Pro matches are good examples of this behavior).

 

Yes, and once Paul knew what the fans wanted, he never strayed from that. That was part of his success in the beginning, but he lost that after all of his writers left him and the company didn't have what it took to be interesting after that. I think Paul decided that most of the guys on his roster weren't really good at all, but if he had them go out there and do things that weren't that common at the time, people would be able to ignore how bad they were. The match that was I was refering to (Eddy/Dean) was not like the spoty Lucha, M Pro, or standard ECW Spotfest matches, which is why they couldn't appreciate it. The mutants' lack of attention span wouldn't let them.

 

The Holly/Albert thing was just imagination, but I doubt somehow they would be more entertaining than if they were in the WWE, which seemed to be where you were going with that.

 

Mikey/Tajiri and FBI got over because Tony Mamaluke would bump like a pinball and Tajiri/Mikey would pump out new double team moves every two matches. "Extreme" was not what got that over. Foley doing what he does best is bumping. Foley/Whipwreck really wasn't like that.

 

The double teams usually involved chairs, tables, or other garbage elements, and Momaluke's bumps were always sick. That was the pinacle of the "extreme" that Paul was going for at the time. Foley's best skill was carrying anyone to a good brawl, and his character portrayal. That was a valid example of that, if not the definitive one.

 

You fail to see that all the things the ECW wrestlers did to get over is the same as the things they used to get by in their matches. They got over due to booking, and the conditioning of ECW fans to pop for tables, blood, and chairs. Mikey and Douglas are just as guilty of that as anyone. Taz put people through tables for years, and along with Douglas was booked to look like a monster from day one and "worked the mic" by swearing constantly. The point I'm trying to make is that none of this applies to wrestling on a national levle, evident in how poorly ECW did once they tried to be more than a fairly successfull indy league.

 

Mikey could work and showed it in his WCW debut against Kidman. But if you think anyone is going to get over when they are given absolutely nothing, you're wrong. If you think he wrestles like a jobber, I don't know what to tell you, but I think you are wrong.

 

Mikey had some moves that were border-line business exposing. Aside from his ranas, body presses and arm drags, what did he have to get over? Knowing when to do your moves and how to make them meaningfull was something everyone in ECW needed to learn more about, and seeing as Mikey was taught by all of them, it's easy to see why he ended up such a ridiculously bland worker.

 

The Dudleyz are decent, at best. Without the tables, they proved all but worthless, and their second heel run proved how much of a fluke the first one was. Bubba is over based on comedy right now, and D-Von is currently trying to achieve the same status, but failing. They weren't the worst workers to ever come out of Philly, but they were hardly worth more than their table gimick.

 

Awesome has never been good. He could powerbomb like a mother, and was quite agile too, so I guess that makes him a two trick pony. Beyond that, what did he have to offer? Again, his knowledge of when to hit his big moves, when to give the other guy offense, and his ability to work the crowd was never up to what it appeared to be, and this became obvious whenever he faced someone besides Tanaka. Tanaka has proved to be an incredibly smart worker, and has had many great singles matches since returning to Japan. Awesome has dissapointed in everything, even when given competant workers like Page, Storm, and Kidman to work with. The only match I ever saw him in that I enjoyed was Vs. Kanyon, and everything after that was dissapointing. If he was as good as he appeared to be in the Tanaka matches, he could have at least gotten something decent out of Vampiro, who was willing to take almost all of the crazy bumps Tanaka had. But, as expected, the match had no flow or sense to the bumps and was considerably worse as a result. I think that proves how much of the real work Tanaka was doing more than anything.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Ricky, i still want to know why you hate ECW so much. Yeah, they're not All Japan and the wrestlers arnt Misawa, Kawada, or Kobashi; Paul took what he had (coal) and made some diamonds. He's a great thinker who had some money management problems. He provided his fans with what THEY wanted to see. If they wanted a 60 min match - he would've given it to them. There's no coincidence that many big stars passed through there.

I've already belabored the point enough. Paul did something very amazing for the time and managed to create a compelling wrestling product. However, long after it had made it's contribution, long after it had ceased being an entertaining product, ECW was still there trying to keep some semblance of "cutting edge TV" when really most of the wrestling world could have cared less.

 

Had he had fans any less blindly loyal/purposefully ignorant, it would have caved long before it did. And it should have.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

The match was stiff, had plenty of near falls, had the crowd TOTALLY into it, had guys kickin out of each others finishers, had two guys beating the shit outta each other and ended with a rolling elbow. What's NOT all japanish about that?

 

While ECW did lose a lot of its stars, the product put on in 2000 has been underrated and understated on the net, IMO. Hell, half the guys who dismiss ECW in that 'era' stopped watching in 99. Yeah, the nova/chetti/baldies/cw/simon/new jack ever ppv thing wore thing, but they put on solid ppvs, especially with the talent they had.

 

Corino wasn't worthless. Lynn wasn't. Credible had worth (though not as champ). Tajiri and Mikey and the FBI ruled the tag team world. CW, Simon, Swinger, kash, Rhyno, EZ money, Confederate Currency, were all good talent.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

The match was stiff, had plenty of near falls, had the crowd TOTALLY into it, had guys kickin out of each others finishers, had two guys beating the shit outta each other and ended with a rolling elbow. What's NOT all japanish about that?

 

While ECW did lose a lot of its stars, the product put on in 2000 has been underrated and understated on the net, IMO. Hell, half the guys who dismiss ECW in that 'era' stopped watching in 99. Yeah, the nova/chetti/baldies/cw/simon/new jack ever ppv thing wore thing, but they put on solid ppvs, especially with the talent they had.

 

Corino wasn't worthless. Lynn wasn't. Credible had worth (though not as champ). Tajiri and Mikey and the FBI ruled the tag team world. CW, Simon, Swinger, kash, Rhyno, EZ money, Confederate Currency, were all good talent.

The match was missing the first twenty or so minutes of any All Japan match, was way more fast-paced, and didn't have half the subtleties and throw-backs to history and previous matches that All Japan did, but other than that, I can kind of see you're point.

 

Oh, and the chairs, tables, and thumbtacks weren't very All Japan-like. Can't forget those.

 

Actually, if anything, it seemed like a rather light-weight BJW match. Light-weight because in Dai Nihon a tornado DDT through a table covered in thumbtacks probably wouldn't be enough to end the match, but still, it had it's resemblances.

 

Well, I was one of the guys who continued watching, for whatever reason, and I have to firmly disagree. As a heel, Corino was only good for blade jobs and getting his ass kicked. As a face, he was completely over-pushed and should never have gotten the title, period. Lots of people are high on him now, but the day I pay money to watch Corino Vs. Credible in a world title match is the day hell freezes over. Credible was champion but hadn't gone over anyone who the fans cared about and was thus, worthless. Lynn lost all direction upon returning because his "big win" over RVD was about as climactic as Credible's title win. It wasn't long before they stuck him in there with Tajiri/Crazy again, for all that was worth. Tajiri/Mikey were fun, and FBI were good wipping boys, but the only two good matches they had were in a two day period and after that it was a tired match.

 

EZ money's stable, whatever the hell they were calling it, was so fifth rate it was almost comical. Almost. Kash was a few cool spots with zero substance. Rhino was over-pushed and borring. He, along with RVD, actually benafitted from the change to WWE style, because before then, the idea of planning your spots out to keep the match engaging, or altering them to target a certain body part, or actually letting the other guy get control of the match were all foreign concepts to them.