Even Canada hates the US, huh?

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

I think "had it coming" is the wrong choice of words, since that somewhat implies that what happened was deserved. However, one would be naive to claim that they couldn't conceive of such a thing happening. When it happened it was shocking, but after letting in sink in it wasn't totally surprising. So a better term than "had it coming" would be "should have seen it coming".

[Guest Vern Gagne]

The problem is some people do think "we had it coming".

 

Why does so much of the world not like Bush. I think it has do with the fact that Bush put America first, and doesn't care about what the rest of the world thinks. This is unlike Clinton who was beloved by Europe and he went out of his way to kiss their ass.

[Guest TJH]

Had it coming is the wrong choice of words, clearly, it would be truer to say that a terrorist attack on the US was inevitable.

 

As for WW2, it was won by the USSR, Britain and the U.S simply stopped France and West Germany being behind the iron curtain.

Bombing didn't do anything, in 1944 the Germans produced more tanks and planes than any other year.

 

I'm an Australian, and I have no resentment towards the US whatsoever. All overseas contempt and dislike of America is because of jealousy. Australians don't think that way because we have nothing to be jealous of.

[Guest DARRYLXWF]

(Spicy McHaggis @ Jul 7 2002, 08:05 PM)

 

Just take World War II, alot of Americans feel they won the war all by themselves and the world would be ran by the Germans if it wasn't for America. For a fact, the USA didn't come into the war until the last few years, and that was only because they were attacked.  

 

 

Come on. We saved the French and Brit.'s asses.

 

Fuck yes we did, you all were getting OWNED~! until we stepped it. Damn right we wound do shit if we werent attacked - why SHOULD we have? We were still isolated then.

 

It's that US ignorance that people dislike, and quite frankly, I can't blame them. No body likes being told that their country is inferior to another one (with the obvious exceptions), and that's pretty much the only reason. The US right now is doing a great job at attempting to keep things together.

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

sorry to chip in a little late here, but i just had to give my $0.02.

 

on the first page, somebody mentioned that the us attacking afghanistan was ok beacause they were at war with them as a result of the 11/9 attacks. by that logic, osama bin laden was also perfectly within his rights to bomb america as he had declared war on america

(*for the record, i do not agree with what bin laden did in any way, shape or form, i am merely raising a hypothetical*)

 

I'd be willing to bet that every country has a an ethno-centric (if that's the right word) version of history. We didn't learn about Canada and Australia's involvment because it was negligible in comparison to our own.

i really cannot believe you said that. forgive me, but that is precisely the reason why many people dislike america. that is beyond arrogance and cheapens the legacy of *MANY* brave soldiers who died in world war two, even while america was sitting at home profiteering.

 

america won the war in the pacific, true, although to say every other party was insignificant is false. it was australian troops, not americans which stopped the japanese march south, and if it werent for australia, the americans would not have been able to stage many of their pacific operations.

 

also, in europe, the war was already began to turn imo. the russians were making inroads in the east, and the american intervention merely hastened the inevitable, rather than turn the tide. once again, how DARE you cheapen the legacy of the non-american soldiers who died, you have absolutely no right to do that, and if it wasnt for their blood, there would have been no europe left for america to come to the rescue of!

[Guest TJH]

america won the war in the pacific, true, although to say every other party was insignificant is false. it was australian troops, not americans which stopped the japanese march south, and if it werent for australia, the americans would not have been able to stage many of their pacific operations.

 

I'm as patriotic an Aussie as the next man, but this isn't the case.

The turning point of the Pacific war was Midway.

Whilst New Guinea was important to Australia, it didn't have a huge effect on the war in a long term sense. However, that is not to say that the troops in New Guinea weren't important.

New Guinea wasn't important in terms of long term strategy as the island was practically useless, and we didn't secure it until mid 1944.

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

america won the war in the pacific, true, although to say every other party was insignificant is false. it was australian troops, not americans which stopped the japanese march south, and if it werent for australia, the americans would not have been able to stage many of their pacific operations.

 

I'm as patriotic an Aussie as the next man, but this isn't the case.

The turning point of the Pacific war was Midway.

Whilst New Guinea was important to Australia, it didn't have a huge effect on the war in a long term sense. However, that is not to say that the troops in New Guinea weren't important.

New Guinea wasn't important in terms of long term strategy as the island was practically useless, and we didn't secure it until mid 1944.

it was very symbolically important, as it was the first time that the japanese had been defeated on land. if it wasnt for new guinea, i daresay the world might be a different place today.

[Guest MR. COOLING]

<Well, the French would probably be speaking German today if we didn't get their country back for them after they rolled over and died.>

 

Flippant Answer: No they would be speaking Russian now as Russia would have rolled over all of Germany and France.

 

Real Answer: No they would still be speaking French as for alot of France Germany ruled through a Facist French regime.

 

Besides we all know De Gaulle and the Free French liberated France all on their own.

 

 

 

Churchill to FDR on De Gaulle "We have done too much for him to ever forgive us"

[Guest MR. COOLING]

On the wider point of who won WW2 it should be noted that the USA's deployment only overtook the British Empire's until 1944 (i.e. the run up to D-Day).

 

A fair point would be that all countries made mistakes and good decisions. Russia aloud Germany to invade Poland by removing the threat of Germany having to fight a two front war by signing the Nazi-Soviet Pact however they storm through eastern Europe and it was Hitler's fear of being captured by the Russians that caused him to commit sucide. Britian was a disgrace over Czechoslovika and blundered in Norway but made up for it with Dunkirk and staying in the war leaving America with a stopping to launch the War. De Gaulle and the Free French may have been a typical bunch of French naval gazers (and I say that as a fan) but there's no doubt that without De Gaulle France would have descinded into civil war plus the resistance had its users and America although it stopped Russia ruling all of Europe and afterwards helped rebuild western Europe it did so out of enlightened self interest plus theres no forgiving the two nuclear bombings and how America used the war to screw Britain.

 

However saying that the French establishment didn't do anything positive in the war, but then they were a bunch of Facists anyway.

 

P.S. Interesting fact: Watching World at War it says that if France and Britian had attacked Germany from the start through the France/Germany border they would have met no resistance as all German divisons were in Poland.

 

William

[Guest jester]

I'd be willing to bet that every country has a an ethno-centric (if that's the right word) version of history.

Not really. I know quite a few Europeans (Germans, Brits, Italians).

 

The Italian guy I know only has a high school education, yet he has a grasp of world history better than mine, and I went to university. He knows the history of Italy, US, Africa, India, and probably more. This is what he learned in Italian schools.

 

The German I knew told me that shame is instilled in their education system over the holocaust. There is no painting a happy face on it. They beat themselves up over it.

 

Europeans tend to learn a broader range of history, possibly because their are more countries and language groups in a smaller space. You get a wide range of viewpoints, which you don't get in North America (I'm Canadian, and I am embarassed from time to time at my ignorance compared to my European friends). As a result, it's hard to push one view--too many contradictions around you.

 

jester

[Guest pacguy]

i have nothing to add but:

 

fuckin A, Vanilla Midget.

 

lest we forget anything in wars as the yanks seem to do.

[Guest Some Guy]

VM I said in comparison to AMerican efforts in WWII the Austrailian and Canaidian efforts were negligible. I did not say they didn't do anything, we just did a *LOT* more. That's all I said. I think you've done the same thing here as you did in the Soccer thread. You looked for reasons to call Americans arogant without reading and understanding the whole post.

 

BTW Bermuda, Jamaica, and all the other British island territories drive on the left sid of the road and it is a result on left over British imperialism, the Japanese I'm not too sure of but it's probably from Britich people bringing cars there althoug I don't know for sure.

 

 

Hogan Made Wrestling why should we have seen it coming? We helped Afghanistan against the Soviets, with out our weapons they most likely wouldn't have staved off the Commies until their system fell, we along with Britain primarily liberated Kuwait, we give billions to Egypt, we give money to Palestine, we are sort of allies with Saudi Arabia, we buy the majority of their oil, keeping their meager economies going. But we are the evil ones who should have seen it coming? Not all of our action in the Arab world has been positive, but we certainly do enough good aver there ton not expect an massive terrorist strike on two of our largest buildings.

Maybe the FBI and INS should have seen it coming, but they were strip mined during the 90's.

[Guest Hogan Made Wrestling]

"Hogan Made Wrestling why should we have seen it coming? We helped Afghanistan against the Soviets, with out our weapons they most likely wouldn't have staved off the Commies until their system fell, we along with Britain primarily liberated Kuwait, we give billions to Egypt, we give money to Palestine, we are sort of allies with Saudi Arabia, we buy the majority of their oil, keeping their meager economies going. But we are the evil ones who should have seen it coming? Not all of our action in the Arab world has been positive, but we certainly do enough good aver there ton not expect an massive terrorist strike on two of our largest buildings.

Maybe the FBI and INS should have seen it coming, but they were strip mined during the 90's. "

 

You are claiming that the USA should not have seen a terrorist attack coming because they have good relations with the countries where these people are from? Individuals do not always follow their countries of origin. As for reasons, here are some of them:

 

-The Gulf War. While I believe that the USA was correct here, there are obviously many (particularly in the Arab world) who do not. Bin Laden in particular was a US ally up until 1991 (against the communists), after which he became a bitter opponent of them.

 

-1993. The first attack on the World Trade Centre should certainly have sent the sign that there are people who hate the USA and are willing to attack major US power symbols.

 

-Cruise missile attacks on Afghanistan/Sudan. Attacking Bin Laden and his Al Queda network was a surefire way to earn their emnity.

 

-USS Cole and embassy bombings. More foreshadowing of what was to come.

[Guest TJH]

"it was very symbolically important, as it was the first time that the japanese had been defeated on land. if it wasnt for new guinea, i daresay the world might be a different place today."

 

No, not at all. It is nice to think that way, but the fact is that it didn't make much long term difference. Think about it, if it was, wouldn't the Americans sent every troop and plane they had?

 

"VM I said in comparison to AMerican efforts in WWII the Australian and Canadian efforts were negligible. I did not say they didn't do anything, we just did a *LOT* more."

 

That is true, but the fact is the Soviets won the war, I know it's tough to admit, but the REAL turning point of WW2 was the battle of Kursk.

[Guest Some Guy]

TJH I was refering to the war in Japan, I gave teh Russians plenty of credit in previous posts. I am fully aware that they lost 20 million people and beat the Germans back to Germany, however I stand by my statement that in comparison to Canaidian and Austrailian the American efforts were far, far greater, I wasn't talking about Russia or I would have said Russia in my last post.

Damn, do I have to put everything in bold so i'm not "corrected" when I haven't sad anything wrong?

 

The Gulf War. While I believe that the USA was correct here, there are obviously many (particularly in the Arab world) who do not. Bin Laden in particular was a US ally up until 1991 (against the communists), after which he became a bitter opponent of them.

 

bin Laden was never a true ally of the US, we were just the lesser of two evils in his mind. How we everyday Americans supposed to know that these pieces of shit had global reach and that type of planning?

 

-1993. The first attack on the World Trade Centre should certainly have sent the sign that there are people who hate the USA and are willing to attack major US power symbols.

 

The first attack should have drawn a responce so that it wouldn't have happened again, but it was 1993 and we didn't have a real President then.

 

-Cruise missile attacks on Afghanistan/Sudan. Attacking Bin Laden and his Al Queda network was a surefire way to earn their emnity.

 

That was 1998 and Clinton only bombed those tents and the factory to distract everyone from Monica.

 

-USS Cole and embassy bombings. More foreshadowing of what was to come.

 

That was August 2000, are you noticing a trend here?

 

There was not an attack during Bush's administration until 9/11, and Bush has responded accordingly and used more restraint than I would have.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<The only problem I have with the states is the dumbfuck citizens that think they're the only country that matters and all other countries should try to emulate them instead of having their own culture.>>>

 

 

Then how 'bout the world not come run to America and beg for our assistance when the collective shit hits the fan all of the time?

 

 

<<<These are only a small minority, but they do ruin relations for the rest of you.>>>

 

 

Of course, at this point, why should America care?

 

What is the rest of the world going to do?

 

Am I overly jingoistic? No---but I don't lose a moment of sleep over whether a country hates us or not.

 

 

<<<BTW, I find it pretty ironic that the country that considers itself the champion of anti-terrorism is guilty of the most despicable acts of terrorism in history (Hiroshima and Nagasaki). >>>

 

 

We ALSO completely rebuilt Japan and gave them an economic and political system that functioned quite nicely for about 50 years.

 

I find it funny to hear countries calling America imperialistic when the U.S is the least imperialistic country the world has ever known.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

The United States thinks they are the center of the world and everything must involve them. They try to control other countries and stick their noses in other buisness. Just take World War II, alot of Americans feel they won the war all by themselves and the world would be ran by the Germans if it wasn't for America.>>>

 

 

You can POSSIBLY dispute this?

 

Britain was barely hanging on. The USSR was NEVER a terribly powerful army. The rest of Europe was stumbling over itself to capitulate as quickly as possible.

 

The U.S pulled out World War II. We had help, and lots of it, but without America, Hitler easily wins WW II.

 

 

<<<For a fact, the USA didn't come into the war until the last few years, and that was only because they were attacked.>>>

 

 

AND?

 

The war wasn't exactly a roaring success for the Allies BEFORE we entered.

 

 

<<<It's the same with the terroist thing, USA doesn't do anything until they are attacked. >>>

 

 

And when should we do something? Beforehand?

 

God knows the world wouldn't chastise us for that.

-=Mike