Discuss your viewpoints #2~!

July 17, 2002

AA is getting a bad rap because some comanies go for the token black guy. That is when its just filling quotas. AA is a good thing that really works. Because if you look in the past and notice that blacks went through Hell and back up until Nam ended. I think its pretty hard for NOW to have a completely level playing field. AA was made to give blacks a chance they couldn't get before. Its true. Here is why it is made: Blacks mostly live in ubran areas. Public school is paid through prop and income tax. Urban schools get less money with MORE students than Rural and Suburbs. So just off the money issue it isn't a fair shake. Schools with less money can't get newer books, get better desk, get better PCs, update their media centers, ect. ect. ect.

Its a reason why most poor blacks turn to sports for ways to move up in the world. Atleast in sports a good QB is a good QB. They know its the easiest way up in the world. Fastest way for blacks in bad areas to goo to college is through sports. If that isn't true, then look at the NBA. And look when about half of the players grew up.

AA wasn't made to take jobs away from qualified whites to give them to less qualified blacks to fill quotas. AA was made to give qualified blacks the same chances as qualified whites. Because there IS a time in this country where qualified blacks were turned down no if ands or buts. You know there IS a reason for the civil rights movement. And it wasn't to be able to sit in the front of a bus? Racism still exist today. So until racism is a non issue, Civil Rights leaders will still be around.

July 17, 2002

BTW: Spicy check google for scholarship for white males. And wow, 11 PAGES WORTH OF STUFF. I guess that ends that point of yours.

July 17, 2002

Mike, you are very intellegent when it comes to alot of subjects, but bottom line, you are quite a moron when it comes to race relations.

There is a difference between assuption and knowing something happened because of your race.

You want to look at why minorties can't get a fair shake in the work place...Look at some of the post here. If these people, including yourself were the head of a corperation with your beliefs in stupid stereotypes simply because you have been culturaly sheltered and don't have the foggiest clue about anything outside your race, it would be nearly impossible for qulified minorities to get anything resembling a fair shake in the work place. Some of you guys ignorace is bafling.

Did you ever look at the graduation rate and average GPA of the "underqualified blacks" that were being admitted into those universities? The minority students had a higher graduation rate and routinely scored in the top percentile of their graduation class. It is believed to be due to the fact that they had to work harder to get there or whatever, but the fact is that people that AA gave the oppertunity to get there seldom waste it. What exactly is the college drop out rate amoung white students in American Universities. What percentage of white college students are still undecided in thier major? If we really wanted to make a case for anyone wasting the oppertunity given to them, you will have to look no further than the upper middle class and middle class white america. But there aren't century old stereotypes about that so it can't be true. That IS how it works around here, right.

Do you know why blind admission isn't used now. It is a simple fix and no one could cry racism so why isn't it used. Because the universitys don't think its fair that they wouldn't be able to pick and choose thier students. They are not intrested in getting the best and it is obvious. Underqualified whites getteing advantages over the Qualified blacks are PROVEN.

"My mom had a great story about this actually. She was working for a law firm in Texas in the 70s, and her boss, to appease civil rights activists, went on a black hiring spree to even out the numbers. One of those workers did nothing, ever. He didn't even pretend to do work, he just sat around all day doing nothing, knowing that he couldn't be fired because it would set the activists off. This went on for about a year, before the boss finally fired the guy. And, as expected, the civil rights activists went off, filed a lawsuit, and kept appealing all the way up to the supreme court. The supreme court actually heard the case before ruling against the guy. So, a year of paying a guy to do nothing and then probably more time than that in litigation, with God knows how much money wasted. Oh yeah, AA is great. "

Yeah, I can't think of any reason that a black man from the 60's-70's era would have a problem with the "establishment"!! Its almost like he was treated unfairly his whole life up to then or something. Guess that is what happens in every AA situation up until today...the black people just sit there. <_<

shit, at least my story happened last year....

And mike, I have been on maybe 30 interviews now...I have gotten 5 of the jobs. That is 25 that I didn't get. 5 I said happend because of my race. How does that equate to blaming something on race EVERYTIME. Something obviously seperated these from the rest. It is morons like you guys that have let guys like Jesse Jackson and the NAACP who cry racism at everything make you stupidly believe that racism doesn't exist.

Of course you are a border line racist anyway Mike, just don't think you know it yet.

July 17, 2002

"AA is getting a bad rap because some comanies go for the token black guy. That is when its just filling quotas."

If you have a quota of minority workers to fill -- let's say it's 40% -- what's your incentive to exceed that? Presuming AA is necessary and people hired under AA are hired for that reason alone (which I don't think is the case, btw, but that seems to be what you're saying), why would anyone exceed their quota? Don't fault people for not going above and beyond with a bad system.

"Because if you look in the past and notice that blacks went through Hell and back up until Nam ended."

So that means we owe them something now? Do you also support reparations for slavery?

"AA was made to give blacks a chance they couldn't get before."

AA is designed to force equality in results. I fully support equality of opportunity, and all reasonable laws that guarantee it. But I *don't* like forced equality of results. It helps one group while hurting the rest.

"Urban schools get less money with MORE students than Rural and Suburbs."

With respect to monies they get from their municipality, yes. Urban areas tend to be less affluent than the suburbs, and thus have a weaker tax base from which to take funds for schools. That's a problem completely separate from minorities getting hired for jobs and getting into certain schools.

"AA wasn't made to take jobs away from qualified whites to give them to less qualified blacks to fill quotas."

The problem is, that's usually the result. This is what happens when you force results to be equal thru outside, artificial means.

"Because there IS a time in this country where qualified blacks were turned down no if ands or buts."

What does this have to do with the implementation of AA today?

"So until racism is a non issue, Civil Rights leaders will still be around."

Discrimination, in one form or another, will *always* be an issue.

July 17, 2002

"It is morons like you guys that have let guys like Jesse Jackson and the NAACP who cry racism at everything make you stupidly believe that racism doesn't exist."

The problem is, they DO cry racism at everything that happens. In their minds, the only reason anything bad ever happens to black people is because of racism. It's the boy who cried wolf: eventually, you just ignore what they're shouting about and dismiss it all. Of course racism still exists, but when you have jackasses like Jackson, Sharpton, and Mfume bleating about it all the time, it's hard not to roll your eyes when someone brings it up.

July 17, 2002

Its one thing to not believe the boy crying wolf. But if the boy crying is missing a arm and has teeth marks on his face and you say "Aw, he's just crying wolf" at that point you cross the line to moron and alot of people have crossed that line.

Even when it is painfully obvious that something fishy happend, even when the arm is missing and the teeth marks are there, some people are saying "Aw, they say that about everything."

July 17, 2002

Even when it is painfully obvious that something fishy happend, even when the arm is missing and the teeth marks are there, some people are saying "Aw, they say that about everything."

That's because they do.

July 17, 2002

Ummm, which Mike is he calling a racist? Not me, I hope........

July 17, 2002

Nah...the other one.

and Spicey...why do I get the feeling that you don't know a single black person.

July 17, 2002

"Even when it is painfully obvious that something fishy happend, even when the arm is missing and the teeth marks are there, some people are saying "'Aw, they say that about everything.'"

Well, they do. I'm not saying their claims are ipso facto without merit, because they do have legitimate concerns and complaints sometimes. But crying racism about every little thing that happens to a black person desensitizes people to the complaint. If you see racism, then call it, but don't presume it before the fact. That just gets people to roll their eyes and develop a "there they go again" mentality, as right or wrong as that mentality may be.

Look at the Michael Jackson lawsuit. He's claiming the record industry, and Sony records in particular, is racist and not supporting his albums, which has led to poor sales. Maybe people aren't buying Jackson's records because they see him as a washed-up freak who buggers little boys. But instead of acknowledging that other factors could be the cause for Jackson's flagging sales numbers, racism is presumed and the accusation made. I would think Jackson would especially sensitive to accusations made without a lot of knowledge, since we'll never know for certain exactly what his relationships with those young boys entailed. But the race card was tossed down right away, with no proof beforehand. It's things like that that lead to the eye-rolling and the snide remarks.

I'm not going to say that racism doesn't still exist in America, because it does. But visible black leaders who cite racism at every opportunity, with no proof of their accusations and no consideration of the consequences, are doing their own people a huge disservice.

July 17, 2002

and Spicey...why do I get the feeling that you don't know a single black person.

Because I know black people that don't make excuses every time something doesn't go their way.

Because I have a friend with dyslexia who kept his grades up and got a full ride to Nevada Reno on a football scholarship. Because he wants to use that scholarship and the school's great learning disabilities program to get an engineering degree.

Because I have another friend whose grades weren't quite good enough to get into a 4-year school, so instead of looking for an easy way out he decided to go to a J.C. Because he then contracted leukemia and fought his way out of that and is now finishing J.C. to get into a university. Because he's not using any of those things as an excuse.

Because I have another friend who was the point guard of our high-school basketball team and he was one of the top five students in our class. Because he got into Northwestern based on his academic merits and achievements. Because he wasn't looking for any handouts to help him get in.

Because I know other black people that feel the exact opposite way about things than you. They think affirmative action is discriminatory, they'd rather get a job based on their own qualifications. They deal with difficult issues with dignity and poise, they don't whine and complain every time something bad happens to them. They are the reasons the civil-rights movement was worthwhile.

July 17, 2002

You are absolutely right Tom...civil rights lawyers and organizations have polluted the minds of people into thinking that black people always complain about stuff. I personally never complain about anything unless, as I said before, it is painfully obvious.

And Spicy, thats great that you know some Black people that made it on their own merits. Hell, I used to believe that AA was no longer necessary. But here is a sad fact. Alot of young black people in college and highschool sadly have no idea about the real world. In a perfect, the way things should be world, achievement alone would be enough. Talent alone would be enough. Qualifications will be enough. But when they go to that first interview in which they aren't even allowed to go through with the thing because the guy sees them...when they start to work with youth that have the grades, but come from a lower income family therefore they are assumed to be inferior dispite the grades...it can change the minds.

Clarence Thomas is against AA. Despite the fact that he got to where he is mostly because of it, he is firmly against it now...mostly because he doesn't need it anymore. Just because some black people are against AA doesnt' mean every on should be.

I don't complain and whine everytime things don't go my way, as don't the majority of black americans. But what gets more press, some bleached freak like michael Jackson crying racism or the millions upon millions of us that don't. But it does still exist. Show me the millions of overqulified whites not getting a fair shake because of AA and maybe I can be swayed a little. But I do see, know and have experienced what it is like to not get the fair shake...to not get the equal treatment.

I am in the same boat with others on I believe in equal oppertunity and without AA in a large amounts of fields, it has proven to not be the case.

I'm sorry but a bunch of underqulified blacks getting jobs they shouldn't have isn't what is going on out there. AA is almost working as a check and balance against human flaw in posisitons of power. Here are the major things to consider.

1: The AA laws don't say 30% or 40% diveristy...most have a 10%-15% and that is the high rates. We are talking small percentages of diversity...Are you really thinking that NO one of color is more qualified than every white person that gets hired in some of these companies. Like I said, the ability to identify with a applicant is always a plus, and who is the interviewer or hiring bodies identifiing with more, the minority or the person that is JUST LIKE THEM. IT works both ways and is no better either way. I hate just as much seeing a business with all black employees when qualified whites apply (not that it happens all the time, but it does happen sometimes). It is no better. There needs to be something that polices that.

Like I have said. Make companies be required to use 3rd party interviewers or blind application processes, then fine, no more AA, it wouldn't be needed.

But right now you are in a lose lose situation. Either keep AA and people believe that all these white people that are over qualified are not getting jobs or take it away and watch the amount of qualified minorities not get jobs. What can you possibly do.

July 17, 2002

Michael Jackson is black?

July 17, 2002

Find me ONE scholarship offered specifically to white males.

Well, there's millions of scholarships and basically they're for anybody that qualify, so I don't whats the big deal bout it.>>>

Because there ARE black-only scholarships and if the similar existed for whites, there'd be a never-ending hue and cry.

If you WANT equality, you had best expect to not be treated like fragile little children.

<<<And its not hard for white people to get financial than black people.>>>

Oh, the I guess it makes the racism okay then.

<<<As for racial profiling which im againist when it comes to (focusing) pulling over a certain group of people and then ignore another when they do the same thing. Hell, I get stop for nothing sometimes to me thats a waste of time and harrassment. >>>

Of course, when people say they were pulled over for "nothing"---it seldom really was for nothing.

-=Mike

July 17, 2002

Mike, you are very intellegent when it comes to alot of subjects, but bottom line, you are quite a moron when it comes to race relations.>>>

Polite Nice Mike off.

Snotty and Unpleasant Mike On.

<<<There is a difference between assuption and knowing something happened because of your race. >>>

But since you don't KNOW---all you HAVE are assumptions.

Shall I use smaller words for you?

<<<You want to look at why minorties can't get a fair shake in the work place.>>>

Hmm, I work two jobs. At one, more than half of my supervisors are black. At my other, 1/4 of the managementis black.

Yup, no hope for achievement on merit.

Then again, maybe I just think more of your race than you do, Ripper.

<<<..Look at some of the post here.>>>

(polishes mirror. Focuses it back at poster)

<<<If these people, including yourself were the head of a corperation with your beliefs in stupid stereotypes simply because you have been culturaly sheltered>>>

Ah, thank God YOU don't deal with stereotypes, huh?

Anybody who disagrees with you MUST be poorly educated?

Man, no wonder that job wouldn't hire you. I'd give you an interview then laugh at you at the end and tell you to buy some talent.

But I can be harsh.

<<<and don't have the foggiest clue about anything outside your race>>>

Pot, meet kettle.

<<<, it would be nearly impossible for qulified minorities to get anything resembling a fair shake in the work place.>>>

And, man, what about guys like YOU?

<<<Some of you guys ignorace is bafling. >>>

If you're going to issue blanket insults about a group of posters' intellect---avoid typos.

Just a tip, Sparky.

<<<Did you ever look at the graduation rate and average GPA of the "underqualified blacks" that were being admitted into those universities?>>>

Yup. Also looked at the SAT scores which were FAR lower.

<<<The minority students had a higher graduation rate and routinely scored in the top percentile of their graduation class.>>>

Funny.

<<<It is believed to be due to the fact that they had to work harder to get there or whatever, but the fact is that people that AA gave the oppertunity to get there seldom waste it.>>>

Or they get shuttled off to the intellectual wastelands known as the Afro-American studies department where a pulse and exact change is all you need for a degree.

<<<What exactly is the college drop out rate amoung white students in American Universities.>>>

Not very good, I'd imagine. Never honestly cared enough to check.

<<<What percentage of white college students are still undecided in thier major?>>>

Wow, THAT is almost relevant to the topic.

Almost---but not quite.

<<<If we really wanted to make a case for anyone wasting the oppertunity given to them, you will have to look no further than the upper middle class and middle class white america. But there aren't century old stereotypes about that so it can't be true.

That IS how it works around here, right. >>>

Of course, the whites don't bitch and moan that they aren't given fair opportunities, either.

Just an observation.

<<<Do you know why blind admission isn't used now.>>>

Because if blacks weren't brought in in "acceptable" numbers, there'd be protests.

<<<It is a simple fix and no one could cry racism so why isn't it used.>>>

Because they could and would cry racism.

<<<Because the universitys don't think its fair that they wouldn't be able to pick and choose thier students. They are not intrested in getting the best and it is obvious. >>>

See Action, Affirmative.

<<<Underqualified whites getteing advantages over the Qualified blacks are PROVEN. >>>

Hmm, so we can go with your weak anecdotal tales and use that as proof?

Must be nice.

<<<"My mom had a great story about this actually. She was working for a law firm in Texas in the 70s, and her boss, to appease civil rights activists, went on a black hiring spree to even out the numbers. One of those workers did nothing, ever. He didn't even pretend to do work, he just sat around all day doing nothing, knowing that he couldn't be fired because it would set the activists off. This went on for about a year, before the boss finally fired the guy. And, as expected, the civil rights activists went off, filed a lawsuit, and kept appealing all the way up to the supreme court. The supreme court actually heard the case before ruling against the guy. So, a year of paying a guy to do nothing and then probably more time than that in litigation, with God knows how much money wasted. Oh yeah, AA is great. "

Yeah, I can't think of any reason that a black man from the 60's-70's era would have a problem with the "establishment"!!>>>

Ah, shocking---sympathize with the guy who ISN'T WORKING AND IS GIVNG A.A A BAD NAME.

Why am I NOT surprised?

<<<Its almost like he was treated unfairly his whole life up to then or something. Guess that is what happens in every AA situation up until today...the black people just sit there.

shit, at least my story happened last year....>>>

And this story is supposed to BOLSTER your case?

Might I suggest you read up on the most basic fundamentals on debating?

You need help.

<<<And mike, I have been on maybe 30 interviews now...I have gotten 5 of the jobs.>>>

Success 1 out of 6 times. I wish I had that success.

Of course, I suppose I COULD blame my race for it, but that would just sound silly and childish.

<<<That is 25 that I didn't get.>>>

Good math.

<<<5 I said happend because of my race. How does that equate to blaming something on race EVERYTIME. Something obviously seperated these from the rest. It is morons like you guys>>>

Wrong, Sparky.

It is whiny little snots like YOU that bring the problems. You act as if the world OWES you something.

Guess what---the world doesn't owe you a darned thing

The world doesn't owe black people one damned red cent.

If you wish to wallow in self-pity, have a good time doing so. Don't expect anything more than insults out of people who don't have ready-made excuses to fall back on to explain away their failures.

<<<that have let guys like Jesse Jackson and the NAACP who cry racism at everything make you stupidly believe that racism doesn't exist. >>>

Racism exists---but it's hardly this monolithic power.

To give you a hint, whites don't CARE about blacks.

The cat is out of the bag.

<<<Of course you are a border line racist anyway Mike, just don't think you know it yet. >>>

Well, Ripper, you're FAR beyond borderline racist yourself.

You just think that your skin color protects you from that charge.

Keep thinking that.

-=Mike

July 17, 2002

Ummm, which Mike is he calling a racist? Not me, I hope........ >>>

Why on God's Earth would you CARE what he says?

Does the opinion of some anonymous guy on a message board really hold much sway over your everyday life?

If Ripper thinks I'm a racist, let him. I could care less.

-=Mike

July 17, 2002

<<<Guess that is what happens in every AA situation up until today...the black people just sit there.>>>

Nah, but I bet a bunch of the people being hired just to fill quotas are underqualified. And it's not necessarily true that people hiring simply to fill quotas are lazy. Maybe they actually couldn't find enough qualified minorities. I certainly don't have any trouble believing that 90%+ of the qualified applicants for some jobs (tech jobs come to mind) are white or Asian. Yeah, not hiring people based on race is bad, but the solution isn't to force companies to hire some arbitrary percentage of minorities.

<<<Show me the millions of overqulified whites not getting a fair shake because of AA and maybe I can be swayed a little.>>>

I seem to recall reading several stories in this thread from people who couldn't even get an interview until they claimed to be a minority. At least you got an interview.

<<<It is morons like you guys that have let guys like Jesse Jackson and the NAACP who cry racism at everything make you stupidly believe that racism doesn't exist.>>>

Wow, calling people morons sure adds to the discussion...

Anyway, racism does exist, and I've yet to see anyone deny that. If there was some fair way to remove any trace of racism from admissions and hiring, I'd be all for it. Alas, we haven't found it yet. Affirmative action isn't it.

July 18, 2002

To give you a hint, whites don't CARE about blacks.

The cat is out of the bag.

NO SHIT, I didn't know that "rolls eyes", but anyway off topic about Michael Jackson situation which I find funny because he makes millions and looks like a white chick more than a black man. I would give him a little credit for saying that blacks are getting screwed by the music industry back in day eventhough I and everyone else knew that already so I give him a tad of credit.

July 18, 2002

"I would give him a little credit for saying that blacks are getting screwed by the music industry back in day..."

I have to ask you what you meant here, because that doesn't make any sense. Are you saying blacks were screwed by the music industry in the past, or that they are getting screwed today?

If they got screwed in the past, too bad. I'm sorry it happened, but there's nothing that can (or should) be done now to try and make up for it. If you're saying it still happens today, look at all the black artists out there releasing popular records. How can anyone say the record industry is racist? I *loathe* the record industry, but racism is one of the last charges I would level against them. Their byzantine policies manage to shaft everyone equally.

July 18, 2002

Yeah, Back in the day is a slang term for past which I meant. But people are starting to smart up and getting their own independent record labels.

July 18, 2002

Mike, you are very intellegent when it comes to alot of subjects, but bottom line, you are quite a moron when it comes to race relations.>>>

"Polite Nice Mike off.

Snotty and Unpleasant Mike On."

Now I'm scared!!

<<<There is a difference between assuption and knowing something happened because of your race. >>>

"But since you don't KNOW---all you HAVE are assumptions."

Shall I use smaller words for you?"

Actually I do know. That is what separate these experiences from the rest. and yeah, that assumptions word was a little on the long side.

<<<You want to look at why minorties can't get a fair shake in the work place.>>>

"Hmm, I work two jobs. At one, more than half of my supervisors are black. At my other, 1/4 of the managementis black.

Yup, no hope for achievement on merit.

Then again, maybe I just think more of your race than you do, Ripper."

WOW!!! There are some black supervisors at your job??? I never knew that we got that high. Guess that proves that all minorities get a far shake since at your 2 jobs black people have supervisor posistions.

<<<..Look at some of the post here.>>>

"(polishes mirror. Focuses it back at poster)"

Wow, I need to shave..thanks

<<<If these people, including yourself were the head of a corperation with your beliefs in stupid stereotypes simply because you have been culturaly sheltered>>>

"Ah, thank God YOU don't deal with stereotypes, huh?

Anybody who disagrees with you MUST be poorly educated?

Man, no wonder that job wouldn't hire you. I'd give you an interview then laugh at you at the end and tell you to buy some talent."

But I can be harsh."

And then I look at my job history and bank account and say wow, someone thought I had talent.

And for the record, most of the board disagrees with me on AA yet I said SOME of you. Must mean that some people are displaying alot more ignorace towards the other race...

<<<and don't have the foggiest clue about anything outside your race>>>

"Pot, meet kettle."

Guess I should tell everyone I work with, my roomate, and fathers half of the family that I don't know anything about people outside the black race.

<<<, it would be nearly impossible for qulified minorities to get anything resembling a fair shake in the work place.>>>

"And, man, what about guys like YOU?"

The type that supports third party interviews and doesn't think black people should be pulled over because they are black...but of course that is stupid thinking.

<<<Some of you guys ignorace is bafling. >>>

"If you're going to issue blanket insults about a group of posters' intellect---avoid typos."

Oh, krap eye misspeelled sumthing...Mi fualt. you sure win this debate.

"Just a tip, Sparky."

Thanks, Bucko.

<<<Did you ever look at the graduation rate and average GPA of the "underqualified blacks" that were being admitted into those universities?>>>

"Yup. Also looked at the SAT scores which were FAR lower."

Amoung students from LOW INCOME UPBRINGING. When the factors were even so were the scores.

<<<The minority students had a higher graduation rate and routinely scored in the top percentile of their graduation class.>>>

"Funny."

Yeah...it is.

<<<It is believed to be due to the fact that they had to work harder to get there or whatever, but the fact is that people that AA gave the oppertunity to get there seldom waste it.>>>

"Or they get shuttled off to the intellectual wastelands known as the Afro-American studies department where a pulse and exact change is all you need for a degree."

Yeah, because that is what all Afro-American students major in in college.

<<<What exactly is the college drop out rate amoung white students in American Universities.>>>

"Not very good, I'd imagine. Never honestly cared enough to check."

Yeah, it isn't very pretty.

<<<What percentage of white college students are still undecided in thier major?>>>

"Wow, THAT is almost relevant to the topic.

Almost---but not quite."

Well it is VERY relevant when people are trying to make the point that all these white students are getting turned away and the places are being "wasted" on minorities. The number of "undecided majors" out there suggest that maybe the oppertunities aren't exactly being used to the fullest potiential anyway.

<<<If we really wanted to make a case for anyone wasting the oppertunity given to them, you will have to look no further than the upper middle class and middle class white america. But there aren't century old stereotypes about that so it can't be true.

That IS how it works around here, right. >>>

"Of course, the whites don't bitch and moan that they aren't given fair opportunities, either."

Um...wouldn't you have to not have fair opportunities to complain about it.

"Just an observation."

<<<Do you know why blind admission isn't used now.>>>

Because if blacks weren't brought in in "acceptable" numbers, there'd be protests.

<<<It is a simple fix and no one could cry racism so why isn't it used.>>>

Because they could and would cry racism.

<<<Because the universitys don't think its fair that they wouldn't be able to pick and choose thier students. They are not intrested in getting the best and it is obvious. >>>

See Action, Affirmative.

<<<Underqualified whites getteing advantages over the Qualified blacks are PROVEN. >>>

"Hmm, so we can go with your weak anecdotal tales and use that as proof?"

"Must be nice."

Or use documented history of schools not allowing minorities admission at all or companies that wouldn't allow certain positions to minorities...which ever works for you.

<<<"My mom had a great story about this actually. She was working for a law firm in Texas in the 70s, and her boss, to appease civil rights activists, went on a black hiring spree to even out the numbers. One of those workers did nothing, ever. He didn't even pretend to do work, he just sat around all day doing nothing, knowing that he couldn't be fired because it would set the activists off. This went on for about a year, before the boss finally fired the guy. And, as expected, the civil rights activists went off, filed a lawsuit, and kept appealing all the way up to the supreme court. The supreme court actually heard the case before ruling against the guy. So, a year of paying a guy to do nothing and then probably more time than that in litigation, with God knows how much money wasted. Oh yeah, AA is great. "

Yeah, I can't think of any reason that a black man from the 60's-70's era would have a problem with the "establishment"!!>>>

"Ah, shocking---sympathize with the guy who ISN'T WORKING AND IS GIVNG A.A A BAD NAME."

Not sypathy at all. But look at the story. A bunch of black worker are hired 20 years ago, just after the civil rights movement when there were droves of people against "the white man and the establishment". ONE of them didn't work because, obviously, he felt that he could screw the system. So we ignore all the other black employess that were hired and working and focus on this ONE as proof that AA is bad. Despite the obvious reason why he was doing it. I didn't say that he was right, I am pointing out that there was a reason...not that AA brings in lazy people.

"Why am I NOT surprised?"

<<<Its almost like he was treated unfairly his whole life up to then or something. Guess that is what happens in every AA situation up until today...the black people just sit there.

shit, at least my story happened last year....>>>

"And this story is supposed to BOLSTER your case?

Might I suggest you read up on the most basic fundamentals on debating?

You need help."

You could be talking about 2 things here. 1: The story that I told about my bad job interview experiences. If this is the case, yes, me telling of how people still avoid hiring minorities helps. If you mean the 20 year old story, I didn't tell that one. See, quotations mean that I am "quoting" someone. I actually don't think that case helps anyones case here.

<<<And mike, I have been on maybe 30 interviews now...I have gotten 5 of the jobs.>>>

"Success 1 out of 6 times. I wish I had that success.

Of course, I suppose I COULD blame my race for it, but that would just sound silly and childish."

<<<That is 25 that I didn't get.>>>

"Good math."

Well, I try.

<<<5 I said happend because of my race. How does that equate to blaming something on race EVERYTIME. Something obviously seperated these from the rest. It is morons like you guys>>>

"Wrong, Sparky."

How so, Bucko.

"It is whiny little snots like YOU that bring the problems. You act as if the world OWES you something."

Well, a equal opportunity...I think I'm owed one of those.

"Guess what---the world doesn't owe you a darned thing"

Except a equal opportunity...

"The world doesn't owe black people one damned red cent."

See above.

"If you wish to wallow in self-pity, have a good time doing so. Don't expect anything more than insults out of people who don't have ready-made excuses to fall back on to explain away their failures."

No, I am enjoying paying my mothers bills and helping my family too much to wallow in self pity. See Mike, despite what has been thrown at me, I made it through but I realize that I was lucky. Maybe I could take a "Well, I made it, fuck everyone else" stance, but that just isn't me.

<<<that have let guys like Jesse Jackson and the NAACP who cry racism at everything make you stupidly believe that racism doesn't exist. >>>

"Racism exists---but it's hardly this monolithic power.

To give you a hint, whites don't CARE about blacks.

The cat is out of the bag."

Well thats not true. Some people care about people...See those are the good people...Some people care about nobody...that is fine too. Some people only care about one race...that is just pretty sad.

<<<Of course you are a border line racist anyway Mike, just don't think you know it yet. >>>

"Well, Ripper, you're FAR beyond borderline racist yourself.

You just think that your skin color protects you from that charge.

Keep thinking that."

Yeah...I know that I am far from a racist. I have this wacky belief in equal opportunity. I know, its crazy to you, but yeah, it is a belief of mine. I hate when people are treated unfairly because of the color of thier skin. And with this big ol' diverse family I have, I have seen it on both sides, whites being mistreated by minorities and vice versa. It is no better either way. Blacks can be racist just as easily as whites...(Actually, in the south right now, Hispanics are catching racism from Whites and Blacks...its pretty disgusting).

See, I am not FOR AA completely. I am FOR a alternative to safe guard against the things that AA were suppose to protect against. I am not for just abolishing AA and acting like everything is fine because sadly it is not. Either bring about another method...one that actually works...or keep AA. To say that AA needs to be gone and thats it is like saying that the problems it was trying to remedy don't exist anymore.

July 18, 2002

WOW!!! There are some black supervisors at your job??? I never knew that we got that high. Guess that proves that all minorities get a far shake since at your 2 jobs black people have supervisor posistions.

"Funny story. I got turned down for a job in my animation field in Atlanta. They said that they didn't feel that I had the experience although they enjoyed my work. So I turned a white friend of mine to the job, who really didn't want to but said he would try. He ended up forgetting the interview, and came back in town."

WOW!!! You got turned down for one job possibly because of your race??? Guess that proves that all minorities are discriminated against all the time.

Guess I should tell everyone I work with, my roomate, and fathers half of the family that I don't know anything about people outside the black race.

"Spicey...why do I get the feeling that you don't know a single black person."

Ripper, thats great that you know some white people. But here is a sad fact. Alot of young black people who cry racism all the time sadly have no idea about the real world.

How does it feel now that the tables are turned? I guess it's true when you assume, you really do make an ass out of you and me.

Amoung students from LOW INCOME UPBRINGING. When the factors were even so were the scores.

How does THAT have anything to do with the test scores? Oh, that's right, the tests are culturally biased. I forgot...

Well it is VERY relevant when people are trying to make the point that all these white students are getting turned away and the places are being "wasted" on minorities. The number of "undecided majors" out there suggest that maybe the oppertunities aren't exactly being used to the fullest potiential anyway.

It's not like they're undecided for four years. Most colleges don't even allow you to work on your major until your second or third year. Who cares if they're undecided before that? They're only working on GE's and the like. When you need to pick a major every student does. Undecided doesn't mean you don't care... it means you don't want to make a decision until your finished with lower division classes.

Or use documented history of schools not allowing minorities admission at all or companies that wouldn't allow certain positions to minorities...which ever works for you.

Let's see it then.

Not sypathy at all. But look at the story. A bunch of black worker are hired 20 years ago, just after the civil rights movement when there were droves of people against "the white man and the establishment". ONE of them didn't work because, obviously, he felt that he could screw the system. So we ignore all the other black employess that were hired and working and focus on this ONE as proof that AA is bad. Despite the obvious reason why he was doing it. I didn't say that he was right, I am pointing out that there was a reason...not that AA brings in lazy people.

The main problem isn't with the lazy employee it's with the activists filing lawsuits on his behalf. Here we have a guy taking advantage of the system, sitting on his ass all day. Finally his employer gets fed up and rightfully fires him. Without even thinking the civil-rights activists file another stupid lawsuit. This is the problem people have with the race card being played so much.

The story that I told about my bad job interview experiences. If this is the case, yes, me telling of how people still avoid hiring minorities helps.

No, it talks about how the company avoided hiring YOU. Just like when you criticized Mike's work experience story saying, "Guess that proves that all minorities get a far shake since at your 2 jobs black people have supervisor posistions."

No, I am enjoying paying my mothers bills and helping my family too much to wallow in self pity.

"Man, some of you should become black and..."

"I have been turned down for a growing number of jobs when my race became apparent..."

"I still think that most of white america are completely ignorant to what black professionals have to go through. I think they are completely ignorant to the struggle black students have trying to get into college."

"Right now I am the only black man at my job...and I know that I get paid considerably less that each and every single person here."

"As I close the envelope on another one of my school loans(3 loans which paid for every dime of school minus a few writing and art awards) I stop and think back on my 3.9 GPA and 32 ACT score and wonder how in the fucking hell is it possible for me to not have recieved any type of aid to go to school."

"Then I think of how my school cost about 15,000 a year and my mother was making 17,000 a year...."

Excuse me?

July 18, 2002

"How does THAT have anything to do with the test scores? Oh, that's right, the tests are culturally biased. I forgot..."

Guess you got me there on how much I keep saying the test are culturally biased...oh...wait...I didn't say that. Since you like going around the thread and picking out quotes, why not get the the quote when I said that ALL people in low income situtations tend to have lower scores. White people and Blacks that are from low income background usually attend schools that don't offer that great of a education. If you want to bring up test scores, don't compare those of innercity, poorly funded schools versus those in middle class America. Compare Middle class vs Middle Class and you have no ground to stand on.

And why don't you pull that quote where I said that people with lower test scores should be given more of a chance because they are black....OH WAIT...DIDN't say that did I???

"WOW!!! You got turned down for one job possibly because of your race??? Guess that proves that all minorities are discriminated against all the time."

And If I said that minorities are discriminated against all the time, you might have a point. If it weren't a bunch of people claiming that it doesn't happen, you might have a point. But wait...did I not say that most of the times people do work on even playing grounds...but that doesn't support your point...ignore that. And 5 times kid...not one job. Guess that beats out Mikes 2 jobs since we want to break it down all the way.

"Ripper, thats great that you know some white people. But here is a sad fact. Alot of young black people who cry racism all the time sadly have no idea about the real world."

Of course, those thousands of black people that you know that scream racisim all the time proves your point. I don't know any. I know that Jesse Jackson and others jump on television every 3 weeks calling something racism...I guess he represents all black people, huh? I know a couple of blatantly racist white people and a couple of blatantly racist black people. Does that mean they are represntatives of the entire black and white race?

"How does it feel now that the tables are turned? I guess it's true when you assume, you really do make an ass out of you and me."

I think I am doing a pretty good job of getting the second one down.

"Let's see it then."

Have you ever heard of life before the late 60's or do I really have to make make a timeline for you.

"The main problem isn't with the lazy employee it's with the activists filing lawsuits on his behalf. Here we have a guy taking advantage of the system, sitting on his ass all day. Finally his employer gets fed up and rightfully fires him. Without even thinking the civil-rights activists file another stupid lawsuit. This is the problem people have with the race card being played so much."

Exactly how many times have I expressed my disgust for the civil rights organizations of today. They are in the business of making money and the money is in sueing people. Yes, I hate it...It creates jaded people like those on this board that act as if anytime something race related happens it is black people crying wolf dispite cold hard evidence to the contrary.

"Man, some of you should become black and..."

"I have been turned down for a growing number of jobs when my race became apparent..."

"I still think that most of white america are completely ignorant to what black professionals have to go through. I think they are completely ignorant to the struggle black students have trying to get into college."

"Right now I am the only black man at my job...and I know that I get paid considerably less that each and every single person here."

"As I close the envelope on another one of my school loans(3 loans which paid for every dime of school minus a few writing and art awards) I stop and think back on my 3.9 GPA and 32 ACT score and wonder how in the fucking hell is it possible for me to not have recieved any type of aid to go to school."

"Then I think of how my school cost about 15,000 a year and my mother was making 17,000 a year...."

"Excuse me?"

Isn't that fun to take responses that were direcetly related to other statements and make them seem like bitching. Cute.

So, someone says, "I'm tired of all the scholarships going to people of color" so I point out that I, most people I graduated with, members of my family and stats to the contrary are on my side, but you pick out a little part and say that is self pity?

Someone says that "People being turned down from race doesn't happen that often" and I can respond with 5 personal experiences...from my past but that is self pity, huh?

You make claims, I can personally dispute them with personal experience. Looking at what you had to go through to become sucessful isn't self pity...it is reflecting...it is identifiing with what others might and probably are going through.

Throughout all these responses I get, I notice I am the only one offering up a viable solution. I have said do away with AA and offered an alternative because as seen in states were they didn't offer one, the drop-offs in minorties being hired or accepted to schools was far to drastic for even the biggest of nay-sayers to believe that "well, all of the minorities weren't good enough." But of course, I am the one wallowing in self pity and denial...right?

July 18, 2002

Regarding Michael Jackson. He didn't just say BLACKS were getting screwed by the record companies, he said, "most artists, ESPECIALLY blacks" so I think he was speaking out for everyone. Which is true, record industries fuck over the artists. for the $20 a cd nets, the artists get maybe $0.25 That is why the have to go out and tour on hellacious schedules in order to make any money. And they can't just say, fuck it no record label for me, because then they will get blacklisted and never played on the radio since 99% of radio is just top 40 now.

July 18, 2002

I think that Jackson through the racist part on there just to get more attention. I think per capita, Def Jam would be screwing more black artist than any record label...since they have more than sony. All artist are getting screwed, just some more than others. Michael owns the rights to all of his songs, had a monster of a deal...he just didn't sell.

July 18, 2002

Let me sum up my feelings without using insults or sarcasm.

1: EVERYONE deserves an equal oppurtunity. But this should be based on the quality for them to perform the job.

2: I think "race" itself is a pretty stupid term. We're ALL the same race(human) and we're all mixed from differant people with differant skin colors. No one is "white or black." Hell, the mother of all humans was dark skinned and from Africa.

July 18, 2002

I think that Jackson through the racist part on there just to get more attention. I think per capita, Def Jam would be screwing more black artist than any record label...since they have more than sony. All artist are getting screwed, just some more than others. Michael owns the rights to all of his songs, had a monster of a deal...he just didn't sell.

Yeah, Def Jam is screwing alot of black artists especially when Lyor Cohen took over Russell Simmons CEO position. Luckily, Dame Dash is smart enough to not let Cohen screw him out of ROC-A-FELLA. As for Jackson like everybody stated he's just mad he's new album didn't sell because the fact he was accused of being a molestor and hell I was shocked that he consider himself black, all that bleaching his skin could've fooled me.

July 21, 2002

<<<Now I'm scared!!>>>

Well, since intellect is OBVIOUSLY a lost cause, maybe fear might spice up your posts a bit.

<<<There is a difference between assuption and knowing something happened because of your race. >>>

"But since you don't KNOW---all you HAVE are assumptions."

Shall I use smaller words for you?"

<<<Actually I do know. That is what separate these experiences from the rest. and yeah, that assumptions word was a little on the long side.>>>

Ah, couldn't be ANY other possibility, huh? Couldn't be a darned thing, huh?

No wonder you couldn't get the job. Employers don't like hiring delusional people.

<<<You want to look at why minorties can't get a fair shake in the work place.>>>

"Hmm, I work two jobs. At one, more than half of my supervisors are black. At my other, 1/4 of the managementis black.

Yup, no hope for achievement on merit.

Then again, maybe I just think more of your race than you do, Ripper."

<<<WOW!!! There are some black supervisors at your job??? I never knew that we got that high. Guess that proves that all minorities get a far shake since at your 2 jobs black people have supervisor posistions. >>>

Of course, I can't name a single moderate-sized company locally without blacks in management.

But, hey, I'm only in South Carolina.

Maybe we're more enlightened.

<<<..Look at some of the post here.>>>

"(polishes mirror. Focuses it back at poster)"

Wow, I need to shave..thanks>>>

Kids---if you really don't know how to use humor or wit, don't try. It makes one look foolish.

<<<If these people, including yourself were the head of a corperation with your beliefs in stupid stereotypes simply because you have been culturaly sheltered>>>

"Ah, thank God YOU don't deal with stereotypes, huh?

Anybody who disagrees with you MUST be poorly educated?

Man, no wonder that job wouldn't hire you. I'd give you an interview then laugh at you at the end and tell you to buy some talent."

But I can be harsh."

<<<And then I look at my job history and bank account and say wow, someone thought I had talent.>>>

Wasn't it Barnum who said there is a fool born very second?

Maybe they just pitied you.

Maybe they needed a "token black guy" to hit their quota.

<<<And for the record, most of the board

disagrees with me on AA yet I said SOME of you. Must mean that some people are displaying alot more ignorace towards the other race...>>>

Yes----but I hate to label you as such.

<<<and don't have the foggiest clue about anything outside your race>>>

"Pot, meet kettle."

<<<Guess I should tell everyone I work with, my roomate, and fathers half of the family that I don't know anything about people outside the black race. >>>

Guess I could go on about all of my black friends---but that always sounds so lame, doesn't it?

You know squat about whites. Diddly squat. You prefer to live in your world of vague generalities where a good portion of your failures are able to explained away to forces beyond your control.

Unfortunately, I do not have that luxury.

<<<, it would be nearly impossible for qulified minorities to get anything resembling a fair shake in the work place.>>>

"And, man, what about guys like YOU?"

<<<The type that supports third party interviews and doesn't think black people should be pulled over because they are black...but of course that is stupid thinking. >>>

Nope, I just mean posters with virtually no debate skills and a vastly over-inflated sense of their worth to society.

I should try and be more clear in the future.

<<<Some of you guys ignorace is bafling. >>>

"If you're going to issue blanket insults about a group of posters' intellect---avoid typos."

<<<Oh, krap eye misspeelled sumthing...Mi fualt. you sure win this debate. >>>

Nope, just pointing out that mentioning others' flaws when the same flaws are so readily prevalent in you is comical.

<<<"Just a tip, Sparky."

Thanks, Bucko.>>>

You need the help. I try to aid.

<<<Did you ever look at the graduation rate and average GPA of the "underqualified blacks" that were being admitted into those universities?>>>

"Yup. Also looked at the SAT scores which were FAR lower."

<<<Amoung students from LOW INCOME UPBRINGING. When the factors were even so were the scores. >>>

Yet the black students STILL got the advantages over the whites.

Odd, huh?

<<<The minority students had a higher graduation rate and routinely scored in the top percentile of their graduation class.>>>

"Funny."

Yeah...it is. >>>

Not accurate, either. But, since I lack the desire to pull up a reference, I'll just concede the point.

<<<It is believed to be due to the fact that they had to work harder to get there or whatever, but the fact is that people that AA gave the oppertunity to get there seldom waste it.>>>

"Or they get shuttled off to the intellectual wastelands known as the Afro-American studies department where a pulse and exact change is all you need for a degree."

<<<Yeah, because that is what all Afro-American students major in in college. >>>

Not all black students are in Afro-American Studies.

But, lord, Afro-American Studies doesn't exactly bring in a racially diverse group, does it?

It's like the racial profiling thing: Not all Arabs hijack planes and plow them into buildings ---but people who hijack planes and plow them into buildings are Arab.

<<<What exactly is the college drop out rate amoung white students in American Universities.>>>

"Not very good, I'd imagine. Never honestly cared enough to check."

Yeah, it isn't very pretty. >>>

And since it is about as relevant as the percentage of students who truly felt that Shemp was the Best Stooge, it's not worth mentioning.

<<<What percentage of white college students are still undecided in thier major?>>>

"Wow, THAT is almost relevant to the topic.

Almost---but not quite."

<<<Well it is VERY relevant when people are trying to make the point that all these white students are getting turned away and the places are being "wasted" on minorities. The number of "undecided majors" out there suggest that maybe the oppertunities aren't exactly being used to the fullest potiential anyway.>>>

And who are YOU to decide who "uses" the opportunity to the fullest? If the white or Asian kid has better scores and better grades, they deserve the slot more than the black or Hispanic kid who scored lower.

<<<If we really wanted to make a case for anyone wasting the oppertunity given to them, you will have to look no further than the upper middle class and middle class white america. But there aren't century old stereotypes about that so it can't be true.

That IS how it works around here, right. >>>

"Of course, the whites don't bitch and moan that they aren't given fair opportunities, either."

<<<Um...wouldn't you have to not have fair opportunities to complain about it. >>>

We do---we just don't bitch about it. It's not worth the headache.

"Just an observation."

<<<Do you know why blind admission isn't used now.>>>

Because if blacks weren't brought in in "acceptable" numbers, there'd be protests.

<<<It is a simple fix and no one could cry racism so why isn't it used.>>>

Because they could and would cry racism.

<<<Because the universitys don't think its fair that they wouldn't be able to pick and choose thier students. They are not intrested in getting the best and it is obvious. >>>

See Action, Affirmative.

<<<Underqualified whites getteing advantages over the Qualified blacks are PROVEN. >>>

"Hmm, so we can go with your weak anecdotal tales and use that as proof?"

"Must be nice."

<<<Or use documented history of schools not allowing minorities admission at all or companies that wouldn't allow certain positions to minorities...which ever works for you. >>>

Then we hit the 1970's when that ceases to be a big problem. But, hey, where would groups like the NAACP be without living in the past?

<<<"My mom had a great story about this actually. She was working for a law firm in Texas in the 70s, and her boss, to appease civil rights activists, went on a black hiring spree to even out the numbers. One of those workers did nothing, ever. He didn't even pretend to do work, he just sat around all day doing nothing, knowing that he couldn't be fired because it would set the activists off. This went on for about a year, before the boss finally fired the guy. And, as expected, the civil rights activists went off, filed a lawsuit, and kept appealing all the way up to the supreme court. The supreme court actually heard the case before ruling against the guy. So, a year of paying a guy to do nothing and then probably more time than that in litigation, with God knows how much money wasted. Oh yeah, AA is great. "

Yeah, I can't think of any reason that a black man from the 60's-70's era would have a problem with the "establishment"!!>>>

"Ah, shocking---sympathize with the guy who ISN'T WORKING AND IS GIVNG A.A A BAD NAME."

<<<Not sypathy at all. But look at the story. A bunch of black worker are hired 20 years ago, just after the civil rights movement when there were droves of people against "the white man and the establishment". ONE of them didn't work because, obviously, he felt that he could screw the system. So we ignore all the other black employess that were hired and working and focus on this ONE as proof that AA is bad.>>>

Those are the breaks. Not always nice and fair, but that's how it is.

<<<Despite the obvious reason why he was doing it. I didn't say that he was right, I am pointing out that there was a reason...not that AA brings in lazy people. >>>

The guy---was lazy. He had a cop-out for his laziness, but in the end, he was just a bum.

<<<"Why am I NOT surprised?"

<<<Its almost like he was treated unfairly his whole life up to then or something. Guess that is what happens in every AA situation up until today...the black people just sit there.

shit, at least my story happened last year....>>>

"And this story is supposed to BOLSTER your case?

Might I suggest you read up on the most basic fundamentals on debating?

You need help."

You could be talking about 2 things here. 1: The story that I told about my bad job interview experiences. If this is the case, yes, me telling of how people still avoid hiring minorities helps. If you mean the 20 year old story, I didn't tell that one. See, quotations mean that I am "quoting" someone. I actually don't think that case helps anyones case here. >>>

Then why mention it?

<<<And mike, I have been on maybe 30 interviews now...I have gotten 5 of the jobs.>>>

"Success 1 out of 6 times. I wish I had that success.

Of course, I suppose I COULD blame my race for it, but that would just sound silly and childish."

<<<That is 25 that I didn't get.>>>

"Good math."

Well, I try.

<<<5 I said happend because of my race. How does that equate to blaming something on race EVERYTIME. Something obviously seperated these from the rest. It is morons like you guys>>>

"Wrong, Sparky."

How so, Bucko.

"It is whiny little snots like YOU that bring the problems. You act as if the world OWES you something."

<<<Well, a equal opportunity...I think I'm owed one of those. >>>

AA takes away "equal opportunity" from whites and Asians (who, shockingly, are not given any of these preferences despite THEIR treatment in the 1940's) and "gives" it to blacks and Hispanics.

If your "equal opportunity" comes at my expense--it isn't exactly "equal".

<<<"Guess what---the world doesn't owe you a darned thing"

Except a equal opportunity...>>>

Nope. World doesn't owe me that, either.

<<<"The world doesn't owe black people one damned red cent."

See above.>>>

And they don't owe me "equal opportunity", either---however, unlike you, I don't have the handy straw man to beat about when I don't receive equal opportunity.

<<<"If you wish to wallow in self-pity, have a good time doing so. Don't expect anything more than insults out of people who don't have ready-made excuses to fall back on to explain away their failures."

No, I am enjoying paying my mothers bills and helping my family too much to wallow in self pity.>>>

Oooh, aren't we the noble one?

<<<See Mike, despite what has been thrown at me, I made it through but I realize that I was lucky. Maybe I could take a "Well, I made it, fuck everyone else" stance, but that just isn't me. >>>

Guess what---I've made it and it was thanks to me. Nobody else. My family lacks any connections to help me out. We never had a lot of money.

Yet, I'm comfortable now in a job I don't utterly loathe and I am a happy camper.

And I don't owe one person one damned thing for it---save the woman whom I happen to love and my family whom I also love.

Everybody else can fend for themselves.

<<<that have let guys like Jesse Jackson and the NAACP who cry racism at everything make you stupidly believe that racism doesn't exist. >>>

"Racism exists---but it's hardly this monolithic power.

To give you a hint, whites don't CARE about blacks.

The cat is out of the bag."

Well thats not true. Some people care about people...See those are the good people...Some people care about nobody...that is fine too. Some people only care about one race...that is just pretty sad. >>>

Blacks act as if whites are this huge monolith of people who with to hold them down.

We don't CARE. We lack the desire to hold anybody down.

<<<Of course you are a border line racist anyway Mike, just don't think you know it yet. >>>

"Well, Ripper, you're FAR beyond borderline racist yourself.

You just think that your skin color protects you from that charge.

Keep thinking that."

Yeah...I know that I am far from a racist. I have this wacky belief in equal opportunity. I know, its crazy to you, but yeah, it is a belief of mine. I hate when people are treated unfairly because of the color of thier skin. And with this big ol' diverse family I have, I have seen it on both sides, whites being mistreated by minorities and vice versa. It is no better either way. Blacks can be racist just as easily as whites...(Actually, in the south right now, Hispanics are catching racism from Whites and Blacks...its pretty disgusting).>>>

Amazingly enough, Hispanics tend to be amazingly racist in their own right---especially here in the South.

-=Mike

Discuss your viewpoints #2~!

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