Undertaker vs Lesnar dead already?

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

"Rock sets a standard for promos at the main event level. RVD isn't near Rock and isn't near that level. The Wwf fans expect the top guy to come out and not only do it in the ring, but on the stick as well. They would expect the same of RVD. The Wwf has yet to have RVD come out and cut a 20 minute hype job because he simply can't do it. "

 

 

 

Get this straight...because I am not saying it again.

 

A 20 minute hype job is not needed because RVD's matches already have more heat than the matches that receive those promo's.

 

You can look it up.

 

Also...I am a WWE fan...and all I expect out of my top guy is:

 

1. be able to have a *** match

RVD has had plenty of those...

 

2. be over

RVD is the most over full time face on the RAW side. With only Hogan more over overall.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

1. Eddy Guerrero was quoted as saying that RVD called the ladder match because Eddy was rattled by the fan.

 

Eddie said that RVD came up with most of the spots in the match since he was more experienced in them than Eddie. However in between those spots it was Eddie connecting them. The finish was all Eddie, RVD fucked up on the ladder, Eddie improvised getting pushed off the top rope.[/color]

 

2. These main events you are so high on were running a three ppv streak of DUDs or worse until Sunday.

 

We are in the understanding that the majority of the Wwf fans have been watching since 2000, right? For the most part, the Main Events before-nwo were very high quality. During those years the Wwf was at its financial peak, they have been suffering as of late.

 

3. "RVD is over because of his opponents leading him, protecting him, and not exposing his weaknesses. "

 

You make a great point that can never be proven. His opponents all say he's great to work with. And he stage the best comebacks in the company right now. That's RVD.

 

Yes, because they loved it when he was busting open each and every opponent he was up against... I wouldn't mind hearing all these accolades either.

 

YOU ARE BIASED.

 

This would be like Anglesault telling me how bad Edge is.

 

Yes. You have gotten that bad.

 

And you are.... Completely objective?... I think there is more bias in saying that RVD is NOT carried than in saying that RVD is..

 

I would also like an explanation as to why RVD has had better matches with Taker, Goldust, Brock and Test than anyone else this year.

 

A) Takers match vs. Flair at WM was better. Who the fuck has Goldust, Brock and Test faced? I mean really, if they had matches vs. Eddie, Benoit, Angle, et al. and RVD’s still came out better THEN this would mean something.

 

They can't be carrying him...because they don't carry anyone.

 

You are going to have to help me out on the circumstances of the match... Length? Star Ratings?

 

I guess he just catches them on their rare "ON" nights, huh?

 

No, I figure he worked his ‘RVD-by-the-numbers’ sorta match. Rolling Thunder, SL-Moonsault, 5 Star, various kicks.

 

Get this straight...because I am not saying it again.

 

A 20 minute hype job is not needed because RVD's matches already have more heat than the matches that receive those promo's.

 

You can look it up.

 

Ok, the 4th time. A difference between getting a pop and selling a PPV. People don’t buy PPV’s *because* of RVD, it make be an added attraction, but I doubt they looked at the WM card and said ‘Gee, that Regal/RVD match looks nifty’, or for Judgement day or Backlash ‘Hey, RVD vs. Eddie, I will over look the shit on top and spend my $30+ for that one lil match.’.. No one would say ‘Hey, Rock vs. Hogan.. that is an epic match I am going to get it!’...oh no. Or, ‘Hey, that Promo the rock cut last Monday was fantastic, and really got me excited for his match...but I am not going to buy it.”

 

It‘s called a promo for a reason (promoting )

 

Also...I am a WWE fan...and all I expect out of my top guy is:

 

1. be able to have a *** match

RVD has had plenty of those...

 

2. be over

RVD is the most over full time face on the RAW side. With only Hogan more over overall.

 

Ok, so if they go out and cut the customary 20 minute promo and suck, and kill the crowd, and totally expose said wrestler, it doesn’t matter to you? Because it *is* customary for a wrestler to be able to hype up his match, it *is* expected by the fans. It is the way they have been conditioned, it is the way all ppvs are hyped.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

"RVD fucked up on the ladder"

 

So now you are blaming RVD for breaking the ladder?

 

 

 

"We are in the understanding that the majority of the Wwf fans have been watching since 2000, right? For the most part, the Main Events before-nwo were very high quality. During those years the Wwf was at its financial peak, they have been suffering as of late."

 

 

These are the same people who give RVD's matches more crowd heat...and the people on this board have awarded him the MOTN througout most of this time.

 

 

"Yes, because they loved it when he was busting open each and every opponent he was up against."

 

 

Jesus...Who was the last person he busted open?

 

More importantly...

 

for most of RVD's WWE run he hasn't used the Van Daminator.

 

From November until his match with the Big Show in March...he used 0. thus bustin no one open and remaining over. then it was a while before he even used it again.

 

"And you are.... Completely objective?... I think there is more bias in saying that RVD is NOT carried than in saying that RVD is.."

 

Bullshit. Someone can not be carried to one of if not the best matches night in and night out when they work with different people. When he first came in...he was shitty. Now he is not. You're inability to notice or accept the change clearly indicates your bias.

 

 

"A) Takers match vs. Flair at WM was better. Who the fuck has Goldust, Brock and Test faced? I mean really, if they had matches vs. Eddie, Benoit, Angle, et al. and RVD’s still came out better THEN this would mean something."

 

The Taker match is a matter of opinion. IMO the Vengeance match and the #1 contenders match were both as good as the Flair match...and none of Takers other matches even come close. That includes a match with the Rock at No Way Out...your promo god.

 

 

"You are going to have to help me out on the circumstances of the match... Length? Star Ratings?"

 

 

Maybe you didn't realize that what these wrestlers do is entertain for the amount of time they are given. RVD gets a 6 minute ladder match with Jeff HArdy...it's entertaining. He gets a 12 minute match with Goldust...somehow it's entertaining. He gets a 22 minute match with Eddy...its entertaining.

 

In fact. With the exception of Kurt Angle and Chris Jericho. No one has had a better last year in the WWE.

 

NO ONE.

 

Pretty good company.

 

 

 

"No, I figure he worked his ‘RVD-by-the-numbers’ sorta match. Rolling Thunder, SL-Moonsault, 5 Star, various kicks."

 

Right....cause the Rock and Austin never wrestled their own by the numbers matches. THE WHOLE ROSTER DOES THAT. RVD does it very well.

 

 

"Ok, the 4th time. A difference between getting a pop and selling a PPV. People don’t buy PPV’s *because* of RVD, it make be an added attraction, but I doubt they looked at the WM card and said ‘Gee, that Regal/RVD match looks nifty’, or for Judgement day or Backlash ‘Hey, RVD vs. Eddie, I will over look the shit on top and spend my $30+ for that one lil match.’.. No one would say ‘Hey, Rock vs. Hogan.. that is an epic match I am going to get it!’...oh no. Or, ‘Hey, that Promo the rock cut last Monday was fantastic, and really got me excited for his match...but I am not going to buy it.”

 

It‘s called a promo for a reason (promoting )"

 

 

 

Thats also bullshit. Alot of people ordered Backlash and JD for 2 reasons only: Eddy vs. RVD and Angle vs. Edge.

 

Why?

 

Becuase there are alot of "WRESTLING" fans out there who want to see two entertaining workers go at it.

 

They can't all be hoss matches.

 

 

 

"Ok, so if they go out and cut the customary 20 minute promo and suck, and kill the crowd, and totally expose said wrestler, it doesn’t matter to you? Because it *is* customary for a wrestler to be able to hype up his match, it *is* expected by the fans. It is the way they have been conditioned, it is the way all ppvs are hyped."

 

 

This makes the least sense of everything you have said.

 

If a wrestler needs a twenty minute promo to make sure people care about his match...

 

THEN HE IS NOT A VERY FUCKING GOOD WRESTLER.

 

 

And on that note.

 

I leave this thread.

 

champion of good taste and good matches.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

someone quote me on these lines:

 

"If a wrestler needs a twenty minute promo to make sure people care about his match...

 

THEN HE IS NOT A VERY FUCKING GOOD WRESTLER."

 

They rule, if I may say so.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

"RVD fucked up on the ladder"

 

So now you are blaming RVD for breaking the ladder?

 

It's amazing how you take things out of context, the point was that Eddie lead RVD through the final portion of that match, yet you get hung up on the ladder. RVD shouldn't even have gone up there with the position eddie was in.

 

These are the same people who give RVD's matches more crowd heat...and the people on this board have awarded him the MOTN througout most of this time.

 

I would like to see RVD wrestle a 2000-level ME match (20+ minutes, just wrestling) and see how the crowd, and this board, responds.

 

Jesus...Who was the last person he busted open?

 

More importantly...

 

for most of RVD's WWE run he hasn't used the Van Daminator.

 

From November until his match with the Big Show in March...he used 0. thus bustin no one open and remaining over. then it was a while before he even used it again.

 

However, your point was that all of his opponents have loved working with him. The bleeding issue is relevant in that regard.

 

Bullshit. Someone can not be carried to one of if not the best matches night in and night out when they work with different people. When he first came in...he was shitty. Now he is not. You're inability to notice or accept the change clearly indicates your bias.

 

Have I once said that RVD has not improved? RVD has greatly improved *however* look at the conditions the Wwf have placed him in. He is either in Short Matches, Gimmick Matches, or Long matches with Great Wrestlers. Each are able to hide his flaws. As champion, he does not have this luxury. I would say TRISH has been the most improved on the roster.

 

The Taker match is a matter of opinion. IMO the Vengeance match and the #1 contenders match were both as good as the Flair match...

 

Goodness no, neither had the emotional involvement and the storytelling that Flair/Taker had. They didn't have the length either.

 

and none of Takers other matches even come close. That includes a match with the Rock at No Way Out...your promo god.

 

Promo God? I prefer Austin and Flair over the Rock, but since they don't cut promos any more, I used the rock for an example. The Rocks promos get the most reaction from the crowds and are generally used by the Wwf to hype whatever they want to hype.

 

Maybe you didn't realize that what these wrestlers do is entertain for the amount of time they are given. RVD gets a 6 minute ladder match with Jeff HArdy...it's entertaining. He gets a 12 minute match with Goldust...somehow it's entertaining. He gets a 22 minute match with Eddy...its entertaining.

 

Hey, in some primal cultures playing with your own feces was entertaining... But I digress... RVD cannot have ladder matches if he is the champ, I cannot recall a single World Title match that was for the Wwf title aside from Taker/Hardy. And the champion didn't bump in that match, because the Wwf is afraid if the champion does the champion would get hurt (please note the point in this statement... The Wwf would not risk their champion bumping in a ladder match..which sorta takes out RVD's entertaining abilities). RVDs 20 minute match with Eddie was a ladder match, his wrestling matches only went to about 11 (seems to be the standard for all of RVDs single, non gimmick, matches...Hmm, wonder why?)

 

In fact. With the exception of Kurt Angle and Chris Jericho. No one has had a better last year in the WWE.

 

NO ONE.

 

Pretty good company.

 

Not really. Benoit was out, Guerrero was out (and upon his return, Eddie was above RVD in terms of performing), HHH was gone (unless you are talking about 2002, and not InVasion 2001 -on to which I would say Austin was above RVD there as well). Really, RVDs competition here was what, booker T? Edge? (hey, you could make the case for edges past two MOTYC w/ Angle for him being a better performer than RVD). This is just like your 'Rvd has had the best matches with goldust' comment, in that what competition did he have?

 

Right....cause the Rock and Austin never wrestled their own by the numbers matches. THE WHOLE ROSTER DOES THAT. RVD does it very well.

 

The difference is, the Rocks and Austins matches usually extend beyond 12 minutes.

 

Thats also bullshit. Alot of people ordered Backlash and JD for 2 reasons only: Eddy vs. RVD and Angle vs. Edge.

 

Considering we haven't seen the buyrate, 'a lot' of people is a bit sketchy. I agree though, some people did buy the ppvs for those two matches, they wouldn't have for the one though. I can't help but think more people bought WM for the One match (rock/hogan) than they did for the 2 matches.

 

Why?

 

I am thinking Hype. I mean, Rock vs. Hogan didn't even need the hype. Austin/Rock is a better example. That was fantastic hype. Purely based on promos and montages.

 

Becuase there are alot of "WRESTLING" fans out there who want to see two entertaining workers go at it.

 

I think more fans would buy a PPV because of the hype, than the match. Could be wrong, so lets be on the safe side and say people buy a well hyped match that has the potential to be entertaining. Sort of a co-existence, ya know?

 

They can't all be hoss matches.

 

Nor would I want them to be. But hey, you would have to actually READ all of what I say to truly get that, rather than take bits and pieces out of context, right champ?

 

This makes the least sense of everything you have said.

 

If a wrestler needs a twenty minute promo to make sure people care about his match...

 

THEN HE IS NOT A VERY FUCKING GOOD WRESTLER.

 

There is a difference between CARING and BUYING. A well hyped match that has the potential to suck would get more buys than a non hyped match with the potential to be great. When the two are combined (see: wm 17) you get the whole fn show.

 

And on that note.

 

I leave this thread.

 

champion of good taste and good matches.

 

You be that.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Alright.

 

You win.

 

RVD sucks

 

Hey everyone...I was wrong.

 

RVD is terrible.

 

Goldust and Jeff Hardy have carried him so well that I was blind to it.

 

They must be pumping the crowd heat in.

 

I wish ANYONE WOULD WORK A 2000 MAIN EVENT!!!!!

 

NO ONE IS

 

MATCHES ARE NOT AUTOMATICALLY BETTER BECAUSE THEY ARE LONGER

 

HE DOES BETTER WITH THE TIME ALLOTTED HIM THAN MOST

 

HE DID SOMETHING A MAJORITY OF THE ROSTER COULD NOT DO IN THEIR GIVEN TIME

 

HE MADE PEOPLE GIVE A SHIT

 

but I digress...

 

RVD can not be a main eventer because main eventers must always look the same, wrestle the same and talk the same

 

I now understand

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Dude... Are you being sarcastic or something?

 

RVD can work a 12 minute straight match.

RVD can work a 20 minute gimmick match.

RVD cannot cut a promo to hype a match.

 

RVD has yet to prove that he can work a 20+ minute straight wrestling match that the Wwf fans are used to seeing in their main events. RVD cannot hype those matches as well as the fans are used to seeing for their main events. From what I have seen, I don't think he can do either. In ECW, sure, he worked 20 minute matches with Jerry Lynn, but a)that's Jerry Lynn, b)thats ecw and c)they were not exactly 'straight' wrestling matches. RVD can keep fan interest in a 12 minute match, but a 20+ minute match is much different, and as time goes on in a match his weaknesses would be exposed. He has had the luxury of being in short matches, gimmick matches, and matches with superior workers, a luxury he wouldn't get as world champion.

 

And this IS what we are talking about, RVD as world champion.

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

Ok....that's it. I started this thread and it has pretty much degenerated into an argument between bps21 and Rudo. Let's get the topic back up, instead of some debate about RVD, who, IMO will NEVER main event the WWE as a champion. Sorry bps, Rudo has you on this one I'm thinkin...

 

Anyways, this shit is directed to MightyDamaru or whatever your name is. A page or two back you said you're not convinced that Taker vs Brock is better then Rock vs Brock. The following is a letter myself and a friend wrote to Jeff Marek of the Toronto show Live Audio Wreslting. The hosts of that show, Jeff Marek and Dan Lovranski are stupid, convinced that Rock vs Brock will be better. Here is why they are stupid. Be ready, cause this muthafucka is long. Oh, and MightyDamaru, you've got a Japanese wrestler in your sig, so you do understand what psychology is, right? Doesn't seem like it from where I sit. Well my friend, be prepared to be convinced....

 

Hey Jeff

 

Colin here. I just got off talking to you guys about the fiasco that was Vengeance and I'm still not convinced with your arguments dealing with The Rock. We all can agree that Benoit should get pushed, that Jericho is buried etc...But as for the situation involving Lesnar and The Rock (The Rock being the man to "pass the torch" and such) I still disagree. The arguments that yourself and Dan presented on the show did not convince me of anything. Hopefully you can take the time to actually read and respond to this because I respect your opinion as a wrestling journalist and would like to present a better, more clear argument then the one I had the oppurtunity to earlier today.

 

When he says "It's my yard, you're just walking in it", it's not a gimmick, it's the truth. He has been in the fed for over a decade straight, something nobody else on the roster can lay claim to. It's well known lore that he's a locker room leader and the man young guys can come to for advice. He's the "old guard", the WWF tradition, the guy that is the total opposite of somebody like Brock Lesnar. Or, you could say that he is somebody who used to be in Brock Lesnars place (the monster rookie heel.) That right there is a storyline template that has worked before and given some of the most memorable matches to boot (Hart vs Austin, Misawa vs Tsuruta).

The dicotomy that this feud offers, the layers it presents is something that has not been worked since Austin vs Hart. Fans love the old guard vs new guard storyline, as it has the power to transcend wrestling. It has a connection to every single fan and seen in life everyday, from the old man who sees his son beating him in sports, to the young son who has seen his superhero of a father brought down to levels of mere mortals. This is something that The Rock vs Brock Lesnar cannot offer.

The Undertaker has a deeper, much more personal connection with the fans. The only other wrestlers in the history of the WWE that have had that deep a connection with the fans are Steve Austin and Hulk Hogan. Both men have brought millions of fans into the sport and because of that there is an unbreakable loyalty and connection that has stood the test of time. That is why the Austin heel turn failed. That is why, at WrestleMania, 68,000 people showed the naysayers of the wrestling world that they rembered and still cared. Those same people are still remembering and caring. No matter how many times yourself and Dan can say it, it's not a nostalgia pop. A nostalgia pop was what Mr.Perfect got at Royal Rumble 2002. The pop that Hogan gets doesn't say, "Hey, I remember that and I'm going to applaud the old days," it says "Hey, I remember what he did for this sport. I respect him and love him."

While Undertaker cannot lay claim to drawing as many people as Hogan or selling as many t-shirts as Austin, his bond his just as strong. In every sense of the word, he is the eyes of the fans, the watcher, the guardian. He is the big dog in the yard that is the WWE. Undertaker has seen many stars go and just as many fade away. He has seen the new generation, he has seen attitude. He has seen Hulkamania die and become reborn. He has been through The Excellence of Execution, The Heartbreak Kid, Austin 3:16, The Great One and now, he faces the Next Big Thing. Him loosing to Brock Lesnar at SummerSlam would mean something.

Undertaker can lay claim, more so then anybody else, to being a "monster killer". People like Kane, Giant Gonzalez, Yokozuna, Sid and Diesel were all sent packing courtesy of him. People have seen him climb the highest mountains. The Rock has never been the underdog. He doesn't climb the mountain, he sweet talks a helicopter pilot to fly him to the top. He has no fear and will mock anybody, from The Big Show to Crash Holly. Brock beating The Rock will not mean anything. How exactly will this build? The Rock does not have the history that Undertaker has. They cannot play up the changing of the guard, the monster heel, none of it.

The Rock has brought in the big bucks and the movie deals, but he can never instill the sense of awe that Undertaker has done. When we see Brock Lesnar standing over The Rock, fans will boo because their favorite toy has been broken. If we saw Brock Lesnar standing over The Undertaker, a hush would fall over the crowd and the realization would dawn on them that a pillar of the WWE has fallen. You contention was that since The Rock gets the biggest cheers and brings the most money, that a win over him would mean more to Lesnars career. I disagree. I ask you, what did those wins do for Chris Jericho, Rhyno and Rob Van Dam? Who has ever benefited from The Rock? Certainly not Booker T or Chris Benoit. Not really Kurt Angle either. Who has The Rock "made" and how will he "make" Brock Lesnar? The Rocks connection with the fans is a very thin one, he makes them laugh, he entertains them, he is nothing more then a jester in their court.

In theatre there are four levels of entertainment, you know this more then I do hopefully. There is drama and romance and comedy and satire. The first two are traditionally looked up to in order to fully enjoy. They are placed above the crowd. People look up to the heroes and heroines of the stage. People would much rather be Banquo or Macbeth then Fallstaff the Drunk. The Rock is their entertainer, there for their amusement. That is why if he turned heel, they would boo him just like they did with Jericho and Angle. They don't look up to The Rock. When Steve Austin turned heel the fans still cheered him. They couldnt boo Hogan, in fact, they chose Hogan over the #1 face in the company at WrestleMania in The Rock, which shows you where their loyalties lie. They continue to cheer Undertaker, even though he has run through the Hardyz and Maven and forced JR to kiss Vince Macmahons ass

Overall, Brock beating The Rock means nothing. The Rock does not have the connection with the fans that Undertaker does. The way that Brock and Rock would relate to the fans is not even close to how Undertaker and Brock would relate to the fans. There are many layers to Brock and Undertaker, one being that Undertaker used to be a monster heel who came in and destroyed tradition (Hulkamania). Undertaker has fought his monsters before and came out on top. If Lesnar beat him it would get him over as the ultimate monster, somebody that not even The Undertaker could destroy. If he beats the Rock, he’ll be just another big, bad heel. Jericho beat the Rock 5 times and look where he is. Beating The Rock has not and still does not mean anything. The gimmick “The Next Big Thing” is a direct contrast to The Undertaker himself, somebody who has seen every single “Next Big Thing” come and go. And he has beat them.

The main thing that Brock Lesnar needs to bring to a feud is doubt in his opponent. If fans see Undertaker doubting himself, even after everybody he has faced in the past, it has much more of an impact. Hell, they just established that The Rock was fearless on RAW last night. We all know that no matter who is involved, the match won’t be the second coming of Flair vs Steamboat, but the match would be 10 times more emotional if Undertaker was involved.

All in all, thanks for taking the time to read this. Hope to hear from you soon.

Colin

 

 

If you read that and STILL think that Rock vs Lesnar would be a better ME, you either have ZERO knowledge of psychology or you're just plain fuckin stupid.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Ok Lord of the Furry or whatever your name is. So if I disagree with your little letter I'm stupid? So now you're saying your opinion is right? And I'm stupid for having mine? Ok chief whatever.

 

I do not want to see Brock/Taker because it would SUCK. It would be a horrible match. Rock may get something out of Brock. But I'd rather have neither of those matches. I'd rather it be RVD/Taker because they have a history, and it is the old guard/new guard that you are so fond of. Brock/Taker has zero story as of now aside from Brock jumping Taker and Taker retaliating. I don't care if the damn match is emotional. Rock/Hogan was one of the most emotional matches I've ever seen and it sucked. Brock/Taker will not even approach that level of emotion. And Rock is a better worker than both Taker and Brock.

I want Rock/Brock because it will be a better match. Not because it will be the passing of the torch or it will have emotion. I want to see a good match.

But once again I'd rather have RVD/Taker because that has all the "emotion" you love so much and it is your precious "old guard/new guard" crap. And it has a 10x better back story than Brock/Taker has.

 

Well there's my opinion. Wow I must be an idiot for having it thought because it differs from your almighty godly opinion. Excuse the fuck out of me.

[Guest Brian]

Well, I'm going back to the bps thread. I think there are alot of good workers in the WWE who haven't really show in it a long time or have been so played down among us, that we haven't noticed. The Hardys and Regal are among them. Now, I'm not going to downplay anyone but the Hardys back in the day, 1997 OMEGA were freaking wild bumpers and have since than had a lot of experience in the WWE laying out matches and big spots, which I think is part of what has improved RVD's game.

 

"It's amazing how you take things out of context, the point was that Eddie lead RVD through the final portion of that match, yet you get hung up on the ladder. RVD shouldn't even have gone up there with the position eddie was in."

 

True. The interview said that RVd had mapped out the big spots, common practice.

 

"Guerrero was out (and upon his return, Eddie was above RVD in terms of performing)"

 

I've seen about a third of what Eddie was doing in the indies and I can tell you he is your fucking king. From Super Crazy to Nova to Williams to Lo Ki, this man was on fire.

 

All for now.

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

So you're saying that even if a match has tons of heat and lots of emotion in it, that it can still suck? You nut. I really thought somebody with a knowledge of puroresu would be able to dig the psychology that Taker vs Lesnar would provide. And I don't ever really recalling saying that my opinion was higher then yours, I was just mystified because I thought that people would actually be able to grasp the template in place for Taker vs Lesnar.

 

How in the fuck of all fucks does RVD vs Undertaker posses an old guard vs new guard storyline? RVD is not a new guy in the fed, he's proven himself before. RVD is also not a monster, or a heel for that matter. RVD was never in the situation that Undertaker was once in in his career. What I just stated were a few of the pieces it takes to make up the old guard vs new guard storyline, none of which RVD vs Taker would have.

 

Say it with my now, PSY-CHOL-O-GY. There, very good.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

"So you're saying that even if a match has tons of heat and lots of emotion in it, that it can still suck?"

 

Because it can still have crappy workrate and be boring as hell. See Rock/Hogan WM18.

And this Brock/Taker storyline you speak of would have to be made in a month. And it would need a serious video package to play up all the history you've shown. And we all know WWE. They aren't going to do that. While RVD/Taker has already been built to an extent and would have 10x more heat than Brock/Taker.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

You know... Hart/Austin was not 'technically' a good match. It was just brawling around the arena, no smooth transitions, no mindblowing selling from either man, no high spots or head drops or the like. But there is a reason why it is considered one of the greatest of all time. DRAMA. EMOTION. STORY.

 

The emotional connection of a wrestling match is the most important element. Beyond holds and beyond 'technique', beyond anything you could rate with a snowflake. If you couldn't get caught up in Rock vs. Hogan, I feel bad for you, it was a great match that you could feel... or at least I could. A wrestling match, like all art, has the ability to transcend its genre and allow you to experience the graces of life (as corny as that sounds), and to become emotionally connected to the content. The way some people are moved to a classical piece of music, or a painting, or a film, or a book; can, and does, apply to wrestling.

 

The fans' connection with Taker runs deep. Deeper than any other wrestler in the promotion (save Hogan/Austin). It is not a Rock love. It is not an RVD love. It is not one based on cheap pops and tricks and hand gestures. It is one of admiration and respect. People don't cheer taker cause 'it's the kewl thing to do', they cheer him because he is the one common thread that links together the 90s for the Wwf. He has always been there. As we grew as fans; through Hogan, Hart, Michaels, Austin, Rock - Taker was there. To see him get beaten by this cold, uncaring, monster, it would actually mean something, it would be symbolic, it would CONNECT with the fans. RVD winning would make the fans pop, make them happy, but it wouldn't touch them. They wouldn't be left in awe. If they had documented RVDs trials and tribulations over the past year, then maybe, but again, it has been so disjointed that they would be noticibly grasping at straws in trying to make sense of it.

 

Brock vs. Taker

New Guard vs. Old Guard

Next Big Thing vs. The Man who has seen all those who have claimed to be the next big thing.

The Rookie Monster vs. The Man who once was the Rookie monster long ago

The Giant vs. The Giant Slayer

 

RVD vs. Taker

HighFlyer vs. Brawler

New Young Dynamic Kid vs. Grizzled Vet

Underdog vs. Champ

 

Ok, we have seen the underdog storyline SO many times, it is Vince Mcmahons personal favourite. The Old Guard/ New Guard storyline is RARELY used, and is ALWAYS effective. You say the match would be better, but it wouldn't be anything beyond ***; I would rather sacrifice a snowflake for some actual content and substance.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

RVD/Taker has more substance as of this moment that Taker/Brock does. Taker/Brock has no history beyond Brock attacking Taker and Taker retaliating. RVD/Taker has tons more history. And this drama you speak of will only be felt by you and Lord of the Furry over there. Because they'd have to explain all this sh*t you guys talk about to the fans in a month and I doubt that they'd do that. So we'd be left with a heatless match. RVD/Taker would already have a ton of heat because of the history that is still fresh in everyone's mind and the fact that the fans want RVD as champ so bad that the roof will blow off the place at every near fall.

Oh and you feel bad for me for not liking Rock/Hogan? Well I feel bad for you for liking that pathetic display of wrestling. It bored the hell out of me and I was cursing those stupid fans for bringing back that wretched thing that produces horrible matches known as Hulkamania.

[Guest thebigjig]

So what is the motivation behind Rock vs Lesnar match? Oh heavens, Brock threw down the title! Well, that's gonna get Rocky all riled up! Christ, the entire fuckin world knows that SummerSlam SHOULD be Undertaker vs Lesnar. I know it, you know it, your grandmother knows it and my mailman knows it.

First off, I don't see why every main event has to have a storyline behind it. Brock won a #1 contender match. There you go. There's his motivation.

 

I can give you several reasons why Rock vs. Brock is better

 

Brock needs a strong babyface to put him over. Brock may be heatless now, but you never know what a month can do for him feuding with the biggest star in wrestling today.

 

Brock/Rock would be a much much much better match than Taker vs. Brock. You also have to look at the fact that Taker is a heel... it looks as if they're turning him face but after being a heel for so long, it's going to take a while for the fans to truly rally behind him again to the point where the average fan would be willing to dish out $40+ to see him on ppv... which leads us to...

 

A better buyrate. Taker/Brock would tank and I don't think anybody would really argue with me on this. A main event is what sells a ppv and when you pair Brock/Taker you have 1) A guy no one cares about and 2) a guy that fans aren't really going to fully love immediatly. Remember when Austin turned face the night after Survivor Series? It took a while for the fans to truly love him again. And this is Undertaker not Steve F'ing Austin.

 

I think Brock has untapped potential in the ring, but he needs to be in there with someone that can truly "go" with him. The Rock is that person. Kurt Angle is that person. Chris Benoit is that person. The Undertaker is NOT that person.

 

But that's just my opinion

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

The Wwf could EASILY get over the old guard/new guard storyline. Both Brocks and Undertakers characters, motivation, history (not with each other, but respectively) has been set. We all know Brock is the up-and-comer who has destroyed all in his path, we all know Taker is the 'big dog in the yard' a man who is a pillar of the Wwf. This is already established; hell, its been shoved down our throats. A few promos and montages on Takers importance, his history of slaying the giants, and his moment of doubt is all they need for him. Heyman could easily cut a promo talking about how Brock is, what taker was. And that Brock will be the first monster to take down the Taker, and Brock will be the one making the big dog famous.

 

The match of Taker/Brock alone, would tank. HOWEVER, the build is what MAKES the fued... Seems we all have forgotten that. Everybody, including the Wwf is looking for the payoff rather than build up; expecting fast money. The Rock might get Brock over by selling his offense, BUT he won't get him over to where he NEEDS TO BE. Taker losing means more because it symbolizes a changing of the guard, a new generation, a new monster, hell, something NEW.

 

Sigh, here is how I thought it should have went down:

 

Vengeance:

 

RVD beats Lesnar

- After the match Lesnar goes insane and attacks RVD and beats him down... JR and the King get worried and the paramedics come out.

 

Taker beats Rock/Angle

-I feel this would really cement takers title reign, Rock is just returning so everyone thinks he is going to win it and Angle is on a roll as well so Taker is really being pushed against the edge. It would be neat to see an Angle/Rock feud come out of this as well.

 

Raw the next night

 

Lesnar goes on a rampages runs in on a couple of matches, totally floors everyone in his path. Take out about 7 or 8 guys. Heyman cannot control him and lets Lesnar loose. Officials beg Paul to control him but Paul just stands by amused. RVD comes in (injured from the beating the previous night) but he can’t do anything, Lesnar lays RVD out again, stretcher job, worried announcers, yada yada yada, this puts RVD in the hospital for over a month (a believable storyline w/ the run of real injuries going around). This puts a lot of heat on Lesnar.: Sure he lost to RVD last night but this is him PISSED. This is what the Undertaker is up against. With RVD out for the month a IC title tournament has to be established (RVD doesn’t lose face because a)He beat Lesnar at Vengeace, b)He came back from a beating c) He never lost his IC title. The IC title tournament could be used to create new feuds and could really elevate some mid-carders. Taker isn’t at this Raw, Vince says he is resting after last night, but Heyman says its because Taker is scared.

 

On Smackdown they tie up the loose ends, and have Angle snap on Taker, Rock saves. Rock/Taker vs. Angle/Jericho. Taker pretty much well becomes a face here.

 

On Raw Taker comes out and cuts a promo sayin he has had some close calls in his long career, but nothing came closer than Vengeance. Vince comes out and congratulates Taker on keeping the title and recalls some early memories and shit like that. He presents taker with a video montage with some music and shit to really put over Taker as a face. Of course Heyman and Lesnar interrupt talking about how taker has faced all the giants in the past, but he has never faced the ‘next big thing’, he has never faced someone like Brock Lesnar. They establish the old guard vs. new guard, tradition vs. anarchy, former monster vs. new monster, sort of template/archetype here.

 

On the following Raws and Smackdowns just build up Takers reputation and what he means to the Wwf and to the fans, and have Lesnar be the unstoppable monster just blazing a path through the competition, defying tradition along the way. Really enforce the connection Taker has with the fans, enforce his legend and legacy, maybe a ‘I never left even when it was cool to leave’ and get the fans behind him. Taker is probably one of the most over guys in the company, not Rock over, but an over that is more than cheap pops and hype, it is of genuine love and respect that the fans have for him, and that is key if they want to get Lesnar over as the heel, because lord knows he can’t get over on his own

 

So Summerslam comes and Lesnar vs. Taker is nicely built up. Have Lesnar convincingly win the match, but give Taker his moments. A no-sell of the tombstone would work perfectly for the finish (sorta sink in the notion that no matter what you do to Lesnar, it will never be good enough).

 

So the Raw after have Vince come out at the ME and bring out Lesnar and Heyman so he can present them the belt. You could have Vince talk about how he always had his eye on Brock, and how he is proud to have such a man as champion and then Heyman gets on the mic and gloats about how Brock beat the phenom and how he is unstoppable and how Heyman virtually owns the Wwf by owning the top prize. Vince takes offence to that and Heyman sicks Brock on Vinny Mac. After Mcmahon is out Heyman says no one, NO ONE can beat Brock Lesnar. All of a sudden RVD’s music hits and we see him on the ramp with a mic in hand and he says ‘ ‘No one can beat Brock Lesnar‘?, Well I am not no one, I’m R-V-D, and I already have beat Brock Lesnar and I am going to do it again for that title”

 

Since this is after Summerslam and at the start of the Fall schedule it clearly shows that the Wwf has changed and is younger, more exciting, more interesting, and something that is worth watching. Lesnar should get enough heat off the Taker feud to last him, and RVD’s return should definitely pop a crowd especially after a month away from the ring.

 

Their match at Unforgiven should end up as a Draw, like both men out cold in the middle of the ring or something. At No Mercy Lesnar should go over, and they should also build up a Lesnar turn on Heyman (but still remains heel). The night after No Mercy Lesnar fully turns on Heyman and becomes his own man... The next week Heyman comes back with the man who can beat Brock Lesnar (and Heyman should know, he knows Lesnar better than any one), that man is Chris Benoit. (That act alone would get Benoit over) Lesnar and Benoit fight at Survivor Series, Benoit loses (but comes closer than anyone has to beating him, etc) so who can beat Brock Lesnar? Vengeance comes around, maybe a match vs. HHH, a rematch vs. Taker or RVD, a match vs. Edge or John Cena, who knows? The key is the Royal Rumble winner... Kurt Angle. It would be neat to have Angle/Lesnar at Vengeance and have Lesnar injure Angle so Angle cannot compete in the olympics so Angle winning the Rumble would be all that sweeter and then Angle vs. Lesnar @ WM happens and there you have it, Angle is the new champ and all is good with the world.

 

---------------

 

 

Undertaker has never gotten a solid heel reaction. He beat up JR, beat up the hardyz, beat up Maven, beat up flair and his son, beat up Hogan...yet the fans still cheer him. Sorta like Austin, and when he turned face the fans accepted him (hell, he didn't even 'turn', he just beat up Mcmahon) - Hell, I have that Raw, fans popped big for Austin. Taker is equal to Austin in terms of the quality of the fans' love. Fans are more passionate about their 'first love' (see Hogan, Austin) than they are about any one after. Taker is up there in that catagory, even if you haven't been a fan of him, he has been in the Wwf for over a decade, and through good and bad he has always been there.

 

I think Rock/RVD #1 contenders match and Taker/Brock would get a better buyrate than Rock/Brock.. I am just saying that Rock doesn't have to be champ in order to get a big sell for the PPV.

 

I didn't expect Hogan/Rock to be a technical showdown, nor did I want it to be. It was an epic match, it FELT like an epic match. Those are rare to find. You can't look at that match objectively, you can't rate it with stars, you just have to feel it. And if you can't allow yourself to FEEL a match, then what do you have? I'd take a heated, passionate, emotional, but 'boring' match over a cold 'technical' showdown.

[Guest Just call me Dan]

They promoted Rock/Hogan as the main attraction and it was not the last match. It would be the other way around at Summerslam.

 

If you had RVD/Rock on the card, it won't matter. Brock is still going to get the spotlihgt so RVD/Rock would not be the heavy promoted match and would not draw like it should.

 

This could kill RVD's push because the WWE doesn't consider him a draw and I'd bet they'd punish him for it rather than Brock.

 

Having two or three high profile matches on the same card doesn't do wonders for the numbers, you need the one HUGE match to promote to get what you want. Rock/Brock is it, and RVD/Benoit will be gold.

 

It is fine like it is and we might actually see some high-quality shit from Rock/Brock (Brock technically sound and SSP) and there is room for better wrestling.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I just don't see the Rock 'making' Brock. Jericho didn't benefit from his feud with the Rock, Benoit didn't, Angle didn't. The Rock cannot be the Rock and get Brock over. The Rock cannot talk trash and be fearless, that won't get brock over. He has to have his moment of doubt.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Nobody said anything about Rock/RVD. Nobody wants that. And about 2 people want Brock/UT. Everyone would rather see Brock/Rock and RVD/UT.

And get this through your head Rudo. I do not want to see the anti-classic that would be UT/Brock. No matter what you say about emotion that would be non-existant because nobody cares about Brock and most casual fans don't know UT's history. Therefore the match would have no emotion and even if it did it would not approach the emotion in Rock/Hogan and Rock/Hogan would probably be a better match to boot. Give up. Nothing you say will change mine and it appears anyone else here's mind.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

And do you honsestly think UT would sell and act fearless to Brock? He hasn't so far. Don't count on Taker making Brock look good at all.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Sigh.

 

Nobody wants RVD vs. Rock? By your own definition, shouldn't people want this the most? (your own definition is RVD is over so Taker/RVD would be better than Taker/Brock and Rock is over so Brock/Rock would be better than Taker/Brock)

 

The whole point of the Brock/Taker feud is to get people to care. Casual Fans know Taker has been around the longest, that's all they need to know. The rest can be filled in with a promo and a montage. Hell, how many casuals are left? I'd say that at least 75% of the audience would know of takers history.

 

I think Taker would sell and put Brock over. He sold for Randy Orton didn't he?

 

My whole point is that people would react to the classic old guard/new guard storyline and it would get Brock over best.

[Guest cabbageboy]

I will now attempt to tie together this chaotic thread, with all its "RVD as main eventer" and "Brock/UT" stuff.

 

Hasn't anyone thought that Brock can just kill everyone? Let him beat the Rock at SS for the title, that's their so called money match. Then, at the next PPV he can go against the Taker, and leave him laying. Since it is a smaller PPV no one would mind a weaker main as much. Maybe Brock can go against Angle as well after this and even defeat Kurt in an amateur style match. It is going to take this sort of build to get Brock over, since right now him losing to RVD by DQ isn't impressing anyone.

 

Here is where RVD comes into it. I figure by year's end people are going to be seriously ready for an RVD title run. Therefore, RVD wins the Rumble and faces Brock at WM (which I have alluded to in other threads). By this point Brock is going to look pretty damn dominant--should they keep the title on him--and this match would have a backstory.

 

If you want to add even more drama here there is always RVD's wife. Heyman can allude to her jet ski accident and make fun, etc. Brock could even attack RVD on Raw and leave him bloody right in front of his wife, all the while with a sick gleeful look on his face.

 

At WM we have an epic encounter where RVD busts out everything: sommersault into the 5th row, van daminator, van terminator, 5 star frog splash. Brock even uses his shooting star. At some point Heyman tries to interfere but the ref tosses him, not wanting a bullshit DQ at WM. Finally of course RVD ends up winning the match and the title....then celebrates in the ring with his wife. It's WM dammit, everyone should go home happy.

 

Thoughts?

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

"Nobody wants RVD vs. Rock? By your own definition, shouldn't people want this the most? (your own definition is RVD is over so Taker/RVD would be better than Taker/Brock and Rock is over so Brock/Rock would be better than Taker/Brock)"

 

Not my definition. I'm not the one clamoring about overness. That's BPS.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

When did I say Rock vs. RVD would be good?

 

There are four combinations that ave been presented in this thread:

 

Brock vs. Taker

Brock vs. Rock

RVD vs. Taker

RVD vs. Rock

 

The only one that has any history whatsoever is RVD vs. Taker.

 

That's the one that would have made sense. It would have been a FAR better match that Rudo's Brock/Taker mess. And it would have had plenty of heat.

 

Period.

 

I close with this:

 

Any road that leads to Brock vs. Taker is the wrong road.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I open with this:

 

It is not the destination that is important, but the journey.

 

I think we will all agree that ANY brock lesnar match will not be a breathtaking ***** classic. I personally don't believe that he could get over enough in a match w/ the rock. The Rocks matches always have him getting beat down and over-selling, so what would make Brock any different than Chris Jericho?

 

So the match itself won't get brock over. The win won't get him over enough to be a worthy champion. The only thing that is left is the build. They, so far, have given Rock/Lesnar a good build, but it doesn't and won't connect the same way with the fans because the fans don't have the same connection with the rock as they do with a guy like Taker.

 

For the umpteenth time, Taker/RVD history sucks. RVD didn't improve or benefit from his feuds with Taker so why would he now? What made him get better all of a sudden? There has been absolutely NO progression for RVD since BOTH of his feuds with Taker, thus making his previous two feuds MEANINGLESS.

 

Am I the only one with an appreciation for the finer points of storytelling? Surely, I can't be. The best story is in Brock vs. Taker. I feel no need to go over it because it is layed out in my previous posts. No other feud that could have come of the ME at Summerslam could have had as many layers as Brock vs. Taker. It is the story that will get Brock over, not the match, not the hype, not the title...

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Brock/Taker HAS NO STORY

 

AND IT CAN HAVE NO STORY BECAUSE TAKER DOES NOT PUT OVER NEW PEOPLE CLEAN.

 

At least Rock will put Lesnar over clean.

 

Taker will do what he/HHH and Austin have always done...make sure that Brock gains nothing from the feud.

 

It's called protecting your spot...and the only person who is at the top who doesn't do it is the Rock.

 

If you are going to put your eggs in Undertaker's basket he is going to break them for not shaking Droz's hand.

[Guest cabbageboy]

Rock put someone over clean.....bwhahahahahahahaha!

 

I can't remember the Rock ever jobbing clean to anyone except Owen Hart, and that was in 1997 (when Rocky had no heat).

 

Brock/UT isn't a bad idea but not as a major PPV main event. For a minor PPV it is fine, or maybe a heavily hyped Raw main.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Um, of course it doesn't have a story... now. That is why they have this thing called creativity...imagination...free-thought...It allows them to come up with stories, you see. I know...I know... A crazy concept. The base is there for the Old Guard/New Guard storyline, that's all they need to create one.

 

As for Taker selling for New Comers... He sold for Randy Orton. Anyways, I am pretty sure if Vince wanted him to, he would get Taker to sell (this, of course, is under the hypothetical understanding that a)It's Taker vs. Brock where Brock wins b)Wwf wants to get Brock over)... Cause there is no competition and Taker needs his money.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Yes a month to build this emotional classic you speak of.

RVD/Taker has story of RVD getting that much close to beating Taker each time. A month could play that up easily and add emotion to the match. People want to see RVD suceed. Building him up as never being able to beat Taker and having on more chance will drive the fans wild when he finally captures the gold from Taker.

Brock/Taker as of now has no story. And they would have to tell it in a month. I'm sorry but you're grasping at stars. It will not be this emotional classic you think it will be.

The fans would be into RVD/Taker 10x more than Brock/Taker. Sorry. Your really presenting no good argument as of right now.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Austin vs. Hart, probably the best storyline/fued in Wwf history. It was old guard/new guard, with a twist. Bret turned into what he hated. It really brought Tradition and Anarchy to a head, an incredibly symbolic feud and eventual match which cannot be understated. It marked a change. Before attitude there was the image that defined it. Steve Austin bleeding, crying in pain, never giving up. The match itself was uneventful, nothing 'technically' good about it. What 'made' it was the story, the emotion. Bret represented tradition, the old guard, the way the Wwf was from the very beginning... Hell, Bret was there for almost the whole WM run. Austin represented the complete opposite; a new comer with a cocky attitude and absolutely no respect for anyone or anything. He was anarchy personified.

 

The real twist, the real thing that made this the exceptional feud, they 'story-for-the-ages' is the 'to thine own self be true' level that it offered. Austin was true to himself, he told you he would cheat, that he would lie, that he would do anything to win. Bret was sneaky, manipulative, a hypocrite. He slowly deconstructed, his true colours became revealed. The WM 13 match brought this climax of this story to a head. Bret had lost all sense of tradition and became what he hated. He became Steve Austin, but never admitted it. He brawled. A far cry from the 'excellence of execution' of old. The end was especially telling, as Austin never gave up, he was still true to himself... And Bret never let go...And Bret beat Austin after the match. This is the 'art' of professional wrestling at its finest.

 

If you cannot see the connections that could be made with Taker/Brock then there is no need for me to continue on, cause it is obvious that you are simply choosing not to look. The twist, of course, would be different, but would still have the same impact.

 

The Underdog story has been done...to...death.... It seems that every feud involves the up-hill climb for the face. RVD/Taker would be no different.