Undertaker vs Lesnar dead already?

[Guest Flyboy]

Name me one RVD WWE promo that RVD failed to pop the crowd.

 

No wait...there isn't one.

 

Know why?

 

Cause anyone who is over can cut a promo.

 

It's not Shakespeare...it's angle progression.

 

And since the crowd is always into RVD's matches...he has a major leg up on Brock.

 

Heyman has been doing Brocks talking...guess what?

 

Matches still dead...Brock still unover.

 

Therefore...the Heyman thing is null and void.

 

Just because you personally like someone's promo style...doesn't mean it works...as Heyman has gotten nothing to stick to Brock.

 

Pointing at himself and saying his name pops the crowd.

 

Is it a stupid thing? MAybe.

 

But it is effective.

 

WHAT? was huge...and far dumber than R-V-D

.. Hmmm.. let's see here.. second match for RVD (well, during the InVasion) and RVD was getting pops in his match against Hardy.... AND HARDY WAS A FACE.

 

Heyman should have been a godsend for Brock to get him over, but even with all Heyman's work Brock still isn't over. Shame, actually.

 

bps is right on everything he said... you want Taker-Brock more than Taker-RVD? ... K. I'll leave this thread with this:

 

"Different strokes for different folks."

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I said right now.

 

Not that he will always suck.

 

But that he most certainly does right now

[Guest Flyboy]

Oh, I don't think Brock will ALWAYS suck either, but... geez... couldn't they like.. build him up RIGHT or something? *sigh* And they want the title on THAT guy?

 

Please.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Name me one RVD WWE promo that RVD failed to pop the crowd.

 

No wait...there isn't one.

 

Name me a RVD promo that went over 3 minutes. Hell, I'll be generous, 1 minute. (the Wwf that is)

 

Know why?

 

Yeah, because if he talks over 3 minutes he will be exposed

 

Cause anyone who is over can cut a promo.

 

True, but they do not necessarily make people get up and buy PPVs

 

It's not Shakespeare...it's angle progression.

 

In the mid-card and in ECW it is not shakespeare, but you definitely need strong mic skills to be a successful champ

 

And since the crowd is always into RVD's matches...he has a major leg up on Brock.

 

But Brock has the 'story' leg up on RVD, which I believe is more important as it lays a foundation to the match.

 

Heyman has been doing Brocks talking...guess what?

 

Matches still dead...Brock still unover.

 

I recall a nice reaction to Brock on Raw. This is Brocks first high profile feud against a strong face (lets face it, the hardyz and RVD were not THAT strong...couldn't get Taker over as a heel either.

 

Therefore...the Heyman thing is null and void.

 

Disagreed. Heymans promos were the only good thing about the InVasion. He is a proven mic man. He has a sense of timing, a sense of tradition, he gives things importance. He would have a field day hyping up Brock and Taker.

 

Just because you personally like someone's promo style...doesn't mean it works...as Heyman has gotten nothing to stick to Brock.

 

Time will tell with this Rock feud. From what I see so far, I think it is going to work (to get something to 'stick' to Brock.. But not as well as I believe Brock/Taker would.

 

Pointing at himself and saying his name pops the crowd.

 

Is it a stupid thing? MAybe.

 

But it is effective.

 

WHAT? was huge...and far dumber than R-V-D

 

Well that's simple crowd participation, it's what made the new age outlaws 'the greatest tag team in wwf history'..cough..I haven't see a hand taunt sell a PPV..which is the job of the champion you know, to promote things.

[Guest CanadianChick]

Don't mistake me, I just don't think that it is fair to me so sure that he sucks. But I don't think, even for a second, that he deserves all of this right now. I too think that RVD is the man that they should be pushing, but that doesn't look too likely right now.

 

BY the way, don't think that Brock won't eventually get over. Look at HHH. He was pushed so damn much for a while, and there wasn't much reaction. But eventually, he got over HUGE. that will probably happen with Brock too.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

My god...Even as a devout HHHAter, my hatred is not so big that I blatantly ignore the truth in favor of my disdain.

 

You, sir, have lost all credability with me and will from this day forward be ignored for your obvious ignorance and unaldaltered love of big men over all.

 

May God have mercy on your soul.

[Guest Nezbyte]

No wrestling match can get over in the united states with NO spots. Every match has a spot, or a chain, or a reversal. Fuck, the Japanese use spots and chains and reversals. That's a worthless point.

 

RVD has the skills necessary to draw huge. So what if he's not rocky or flair on the mic? He's never exactly HAD to either. He's like Hogan but GOOD. Ultra charasmatic. Another difference is that he almost always has good matches.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Um, when did I *ever* say that I liked Brock, Taker, or big men in general? Stan Hansen, Steve Williams, Vader, and Mike Awesome are probably the only 'big man' I like in the ring (Hogan is an all-time mark fave...the exception, not the rule) But fine, you ignore me and not refute my 'biased' points. Bah Gawd Aye Luv tha Hosses!

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

"my 'biased' points"

 

 

Good.

 

You've identified the problem.

 

That's the first step to recovery.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Sigh, the general connotation with using 'spots' and 'RVD' in the same context is that they are 'pointless, random, highspots'. I guess I blame myself for giving readers the benefit of the doubt.

 

RVD is a good IC champ, but doesn't have what it takes to hold the Gold. The is a difference between lighting up the bingo hall and getting 70 000 fans into a match. There is a difference between popping a crowd and selling a PPV.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

It's great how you totally avoided the point of that sentence. A sentence which, ironically, just so happened to be about you avoiding points.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

If you think RVD can't get a bigger crowd into a match...

 

then you have already been proven wrong every week for the last year.

[Guest Flyboy]

There is a difference between popping a crowd and selling a PPV.

Then, why was he added to Angle Vs. Austin at No Mercy? Hmmm...

 

Austin was heel... Angle was struggling as a face, and who do they turn to?

 

Robbie.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

On that note...I'd like to see Brock get a bingo hall into a match.

 

The reaction you heard on Raw was Taker coming down the ramp.

 

Don't worry though...I'm sure the production guys will juice him up on SD!

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

You think Taker/Brock has a better story than RVD/Taker? Umm.....Brock/Taker as of right now has no story. While with the right video package the RVD/Taker story will be right there for the marks and you to get emotionally into. Moreso than anything Taker/Brock could have.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

A) The Bingo Hall Cheered Sid and 911, they would LOVE Brocks freakish strength (I am not even a fan of Lesnar, but he has to be the strongest motherfucker I have ever seen in the ring.)

 

B)RVD was hugely over at the time of No Mercy, BUT that was more of teen-age crush than a full-blown love affair and the Wwf didn't want to commit to an unproven product. At that time the crush was enough to warrant a ME slot to, but not a win. Again, for the 3rd and hopefully final time there is a difference between getting a pop and getting a purchase for a PPV. The fans will go to an event and cheer RVD, they will not go to an event FOR RVD. He is a side dish, guys like the Rock, HHH, Austin, are the main course, and are ultimately more filling.

 

C)I said I would like to see RVD hold a crowd for 20 minutes. In those matches you speak of he gets maybe 5 minutes at best (his match with Booker the crowd was near dead) and therefore he isn't exposed as the directionless, spot-reliant wrestler that he really is. In his longer matches he has had the advantage of going against Eddie, Austin and Jericho, three men who's ring presence is almost unequalled in the profession.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Wow....you say all this stuff about RVD not drawing yet you still want Brock Lesnar in the main event? Seriously now who would draw more? Oh that's right....RVD....the fans actually care about them while nobody gives a damn about Brock Lesnar.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

The ONLY reason I want Brock in the main event with Taker is because of the story it brings and I truly believe it would get Brock over MORE than vs. the Rock. Of course this is all under the whole 'Brock is in the main event and the Wwf wants to get him over' context, if it were up to me it would be Benoit and Eddie in a 2/3 falls match.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Um...you are still wrong.

 

His match with Jericho at KOTR was the hottest on the card.

 

His ladder match with Eddy went over 20 minutes and they were still chanting his name.

 

How do you know that RVD can't draw?

 

That's what I am most curious about.

 

And how is Brock who gets no reaction a better choice?

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

..but then again I am biased..

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Um...you are still wrong.

 

His match with Jericho at KOTR was the hottest on the card.

 

His ladder match with Eddy went over 20 minutes and they were still chanting his name.

 

It was a ladder match. Look on the other page when I originally said "I'd like to see him go 20 minutes, no weapons, no spots and still hold the crowd." He can't have a ladder in every match, he can't do the things he did in ECW, when it comes down to it he will have to WRESTLE, and I would like to see how the fans respond to it. I haven't see his match w/ Jericho at KOTR so I won't respond to that, but I will say those two have had at least 20 matches together so I would expect it to be good.

 

How do you know that RVD can't draw?

 

That's what I am most curious about.

 

Because he can't cut a promo that could sell a PPV or draw fans. In the promo-reliant world of the Wwf it is necessary to be able to HYPE your match...it is expected.

 

And how is Brock who gets no reaction a better choice?

 

He isn't a better choice persay, but he is the choice that the circumstances call for. He also has heyman, who could sell a blind man a lamp and a deaf man a record player.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

This is more biased than anything I have ever posted about HHH.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

"Because he can't cut a promo that could sell a PPV or draw fans."

 

Did Goldberg ever cut a good promo?

 

Has Hogan ever cut anything but his generic promo?

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

How?

 

Stop making hollow points. I could very well say that you're just an RVD mark, but I don't. I argue the points and the topic, yet my opinions get labelled as 'biased' and therefore are ignored rather than refuted or debated or discussed.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Because your points are full of inacuracies.

 

 

Yes the crowd is hot whenever RVD wrestles...but if its a long match...its all because of the other guy?

 

My god...I could never post such stupid crap about HHH no matter how much I hated him.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

"Because he can't cut a promo that could sell a PPV or draw fans."

 

Did Goldberg ever cut a good promo?

 

Goldberg never had the Rock to compete with. Wcw was WAY more wrestling-oriented than the Wwf is today. Besides, Goldie is a red-herring; an exception not the rule. WCW spent almost a year building him up.

 

Has Hogan ever cut anything but his generic promo?

 

In his time, Hogan's promos were high-end. Of course today, in retrospect they were not, but today is today where Hogan gets pops more on what he is rather than what he says. You cannot compare Hogan and RVD, two totally different levels.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

um..RVD doesn't have the Rock to contend with either....

 

 

Rock will is gone for most of the year now.

 

So...no...

 

keep trying though..

 

throw enough shit against the wall...something might stick.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

In long matches, RVD is carried. He was in his matches against Austin, he was with Eddie, he was with Jericho. How is that inaccurate? You can actually SEE each opponent lead the match, fill in the blanks between RVDs spots. In ECW RVD's matches while flashy and over with the crowd, lacked direction. Just from spot to spot to spot, nothing in between. That doesn't work in the Main Events in the Wwf, and wouldn't be allowed by the brass anyways. In essence, yes RVD is over because of his opponents leading him, protecting him, and not exposing his weaknesses.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Rock sets a standard for promos at the main event level. RVD isn't near Rock and isn't near that level. The Wwf fans expect the top guy to come out and not only do it in the ring, but on the stick as well. They would expect the same of RVD. The Wwf has yet to have RVD come out and cut a 20 minute hype job because he simply can't do it.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

1. Eddy Guerrero was quoted as saying that RVD called the ladder match because Eddy was rattled by the fan.

 

2. These main events you are so high on were running a three ppv streak of DUDs or worse until Sunday.

 

3. "RVD is over because of his opponents leading him, protecting him, and not exposing his weaknesses. "

 

You make a great point that can never be proven. His opponents all say he's great to work with. And he stage the best comebacks in the company right now. That's RVD.

 

YOU ARE BIASED.

 

This would be like Anglesault telling me how bad Edge is.

 

Yes. You have gotten that bad.

 

 

I would also like an explanation as to why RVD has had better matches with Taker, Goldust, Brock and Test than anyone else this year.

 

They can't be carrying him...because they don't carry anyone.

 

I guess he just catches them on their rare "ON" nights, huh?