Lance Storm is overrated

[Guest BionicRedneck]

yeah, but be fair, Storm never got to wrestle 80s Ric Flair and Ricky Steamboat, did he.

[Guest mister foozel]

All I'm saying is this:

 

Before you bash a guy you haven't really seen wrestle like Lance Storm, think about the crap you're supporting like Lex Luger, who you HAVE seen wrestle.

Ok, not to start a flame war, but are you stupid or blind?

 

I SAID I KNOW LUGER WASNT A GOOD WORKER IN THE 90'S.

 

But Luger had better matches than Storm.

 

I have seen LOTS of Storm matches, and they are boring.

NOT to start a flame war? It seems like you are TRYING TO.

 

I thought I already ended this?

 

Are you fucking stupid, or just blind?

 

Asshole.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Yes, it's not fair to critisize Storm compared to Luger because he didn't have the callibre of workers that Luger did. Now, I'm of the opinion that Luger in his prime is better than Storm in his prime (did he have a prime?) but it's not as if that's a totally unbiased opinion, either.

[Guest The Man in Blak]

As for the top five, I have to say RVD and Storm don't belong. Obviously it's Benoit, Eddy, and Angle in whatever order you prefer, but after that Rey and Tajiri deserve the praise, maybe Chavo too. I don't think people realize how vapid a worker Kidman has become, and how much Taj blatantly carried him in a lot of their matches. Noble can be really good, too, but he hasn't really done anything for me yet. So yeah, my list would probably be:

 

1. Chris Benoit

2. Eddy Guererro

3. Kurt Angle

4. Rey Misterio Jr.

5. Yoshihiro Tajiri

I'd definitely have to agree with the top five here, but I'd have to re-order them:

 

1. Kurt Angle

2. Eddy Guerrero

3. Chris Benoit

4. Tajiri

5. Rey Misterio Jr.

[Guest Flyboy]

Off-topic:

 

Well, Rey IS the shit... don't get me wrong, but how does that make his better than RVD? Rey has had two damned good opponents in both of his televised match. Rey and RVD both use that 'flip-style'/spotty-style that most people complain about/despise. People say that RVD selling is horrible, but how did Rey sell his back when Chavo was working on it? RVD has had watchable matches, with opponents such as Undertaker, Regal, and Goldust... I just don't see how you guys would rank Rey Jr. over RVD. RVD isn't an 'elite' worker, not by any means but neither is Rey, IMHO.

[Guest LexLugerRules]

Off-topic:

 

Well, Rey IS the shit... don't get me wrong, but how does that make his better than RVD? Rey has had two damned good opponents in both of his televised match. Rey and RVD both use that 'flip-style'/spotty-style that most people complain about/despise. People say that RVD selling is horrible, but how did Rey sell his back when Chavo was working on it? RVD has had watchable matches, with opponents such as Undertaker, Regal, and Goldust... I just don't see how you guys would rank Rey Jr. over RVD. RVD isn't an 'elite' worker, not by any means but neither is Rey, IMHO.

Rey Mysterio Jr had watchable matches with Kevin freaking Nash!

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Eddie Guerrero vs. Rey Jr HHavoc97... RVD has, and never will have, anything on that match. In NA there are two types of spot machine. Rey Mysterio Jr, and guys who copy Rey Mysterio Jr... nuff sayed.

 

It doesn't matter who Storm faces his flaws will always be there. The guy is just not natural in the ring, his punches suck, he always keeps his eye on the next spot and he is too concentrated on being a 'good worker' than being a 'good wrestler' (if that makes any sense).

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Everyone tries to copy him, but there's only one Rey Misterio Jr. Rey had some matches with Eddy Guererro and Juvintud Guererra that are on the top ten, if not top five greatest matches to happen in North America durring the '90's. RVD, regardless of any improvement he makes over the rest of his career, will never have anything close to those matches.

 

Rey, even at present is better than RVD. He sells better (even more apparent by the fact that no one can see his face and his selling must therefore be twice as good as everyone else) ties his spots together better, and puts over his opponent better than RVD. His opponent's have been good, but Rob, having already worked with Tajiri, didn't produce a match as good as Rey did, and was given considerable more time if my memory serves me correctly.

 

I'd definitely have to agree with the top five here, but I'd have to re-order them:

 

1. Kurt Angle

2. Eddy Guerrero

3. Chris Benoit

4. Tajiri

5. Rey Misterio Jr.

 

Well, since we're talking about workers at present, I'm not sure that it's fare to rank Benoit in the scheme of things. He noticeably out-worked Angle last year in their feud, but injuries can change everything, and personally, I have yet to see Benoit hit his stride yet, despite how much everyone is pimping his latest matches. I think Eddy has done more to varry his move-set and put over other workers, but seeing his dissapointing encounter with Flair, I can understand why some would rank him under Angle. Rey, also, is hard to judge because of lack of material to base the judgement on.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I dunno.. Eddies recent matches with Booker have really soured me. I blame it on booker, but Eddie has to be accountable as well... Bad matches *shudders*

 

Eddie is on Smackdown with Cruisers; guys who can keep up with him. Let him and Rey go at it again, or him and Tajiri, or Knoble or Funaki. Fuck, I'd love, LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE to see a Funaki/Benoit match. That would be some dirty mat lovin. DIRTY~! MAT~! LOVIN~!

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Speaking of Dirty Mat Lovin. I was watchin Benoit/Malenko from Hog Wild 96, that was damn dirty! The pinning sequence about 7 minutes in blew my mind... Had they really built up that feud that match would have meant all the much more. It is so great to hear commentators pimp the wrestlers in the mid card and sound sincere, and actually react to moves like fans would and go 'OOOH!!'... Generally the announcing sucked, but those two things I really liked. Stupid Crowd.

[Guest Flyboy]

Eddie Guerrero vs. Rey Jr HHavoc97... RVD has, and never will have, anything on that match. In NA there are two types of spot machine. Rey Mysterio Jr, and guys who copy Rey Mysterio Jr... nuff sayed.

Look at the worker for Christ's sake.. Eddie-fucking-Guerrero.

 

It was a great match.. no doubt, but saying RVD will never have anything on that match? ... Right. I liked RVD/Eddie (Raw Ladder Match) more than that, but to each his own.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Eddy V Rey was a mile better than any Eddie/RVD match.

 

but to say RVD will never have a match that good, is a bit silly, you never know...

[Guest Flyboy]

but to say RVD will never have a match that good, is a bit silly, you never know...

Exactly.

 

That's like saying "Eh.. I know RVD can't top Rey Vs. Eddie because he's THAT much of a horrible worker."

 

Well, I say give me RVD/Benoit at Summerslam.. give them 15 more minutes, and there you have it.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

C'mon, that kind of match comes along once in a blue moon. In the Wwf, RVD will never, NEVER, have that kind of a match (the ladder match was better? You're kidding right?), or anything close to it.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I am saying 'Rvd will never have a match like that because that match was damn good and nearly untouchable.'

[Guest Flyboy]

(the ladder match was better? You're kidding right?)

Like I said... in MY opinion. To each their own.

 

Plus, do you REALLY think any of the RVD/Eddie matches let them reach their FULL potential? (thanks EPD) I think not.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

Remember this:

 

Eddy and Rey weren't limited to the WWE style then, either.

 

Also..wasn't Rey exposed to better caliber workers earlier in his career?

 

I'm sure if RVD had the oppertunity to wrestle Malenkos and Guerreros and Ultimo Dragons for several years..he'd be a hell of a lot different than he is now. He's just now coming into his own - what he can do without the ECW influence.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

So? How is this relevant to the case of 'RVD will never have a match like that?'... In all actuality, it just furthers the point. But considering that RVD is benefited by the Wwf style and limitations rather than hindered by it, I can't see the point to, well, that point.

 

I'd like to hear some justification as to why you think rvd/eddie is better than rey/eddie. Cause, I just can't see it. Rey vs Eddie had more innovative moves, a better build, was completely flawless, OWNED the crowd, stiff as fuck, and had more drama.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

more innovative moves, a better build, was completely flawless.... more drama.

 

In your opinion.

 

I think he already answered its just his opinion, he just prefers it (although i myself dont get it either)

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

To break it down:

 

Why is RVD helped by the WWF style? ECW relied on one of two things: High Spots or Blood. There lies the problem. You can have twenty minutes, and only use it to do a spot every couple of minutes. With no need to improve, a person will never improve. The WWF style is more reliant on keeping the action going (most times), therefore a certian degree of technicality is needed..to chain together spots, and such.

 

A better build? Granted..

 

WCW was more relaxed about that sort of thing. RVD/Eddy was thrown out there..to put it nicely.."Save the WWE's ass."

 

Much of the offense you'd see in a WCW match is gone. No head drops, no submissions, not much mat-work..just as long as it's punchy-kicky-spot it goes in the WWE. If RVD had been exposed to better workers, is it likely he could be one of the top -wrestlers- in the world? I believe so. He seems to have the ability, and will to be.

 

Stiffness is a WWE no-no unless one is named 'Hardcore Holly'

 

Rey was also 'brought up' in a different style. Lucha's fast paced, and that influences a guy's style. RVD had more of a 'spot-spot-wait' style.

 

Is it really fair to compare the two? Not really.

 

Do I believe RVD/Eddy could top Rey/Eddy?

 

If given the same oppertunity, yes.

[Guest Flyboy]

I'd like to hear some justification as to why you think rvd/eddie is better than rey/eddie. Cause, I just can't see it. Rey vs Eddie had more innovative moves, a better build, was completely flawless, OWNED the crowd, stiff as fuck, and had more drama.

Fact? I'm a huge RVD mark, so that might help some.

 

Innovative moves? I'll give Rey/Eddie that, because the finish was just fucking awesome.

 

A better build? Both matches had damned good builds in my opinion.

 

Was completely flawless? Very true.. Rey/Eddie didn't have any botched spots (broken ladders) or fans running in it.

 

Both matches had the crowd in the palm of their hands.

 

Ummm.. a stiff match doesn't make it a GOOD match.

 

Rey/Eddie had drama, yes.. but RVD/Eddie had even MORE drama.

 

Take it for what you will. I'll go watch both of them, now, and see if my opinion changes any.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Well all opinions must have reasoning behind it, I don't accept 'it's my opinion' in this case because his opinion is wrong due the factors influencing it. The Rey/Eddie match had better crowd heat, hell the crowd were on their feet after the match. It had better high spots, no denying, a sunset flip powerbomb on a ladder is great, but nothing compared to a tope con hilo turned into a flying headscissors. Is this opinion? Does that not take more skill to pull off? I have yet to see another one of those, yet the powerbomb was done in Hardy/RVD's ladder match as well. How is this my opinion? My opinion is blue is better than black, my opinion is chocolate tastes better than strawberry, but RVD/Eddie vs Eddie/Rey? C'mon. He may like it more, but it certainly isn't better. The case just can't be made. I liked Rock/Hogan more than Rey/Eddie but it wasn't the better match, not by a long shot. We are not discussing 'who do we like more', we are discussing 'who is better'.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

Who is better? Okay.

 

Light-heavy: Rey Jr.

Heavy: RVD.

 

There you have it, folks.

 

It's not really fair to ask who's a better worker, seeing as Mysterio is just a bit smaller and lighter than Van Dam. I'm sure RVD could pull that stuff if he was 5'3" too. If we're rating WWE style, I'd have to say Van Dam, simply for the fact he's got the presence in the ring. Mysterio is amazing, no doubt..

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

RVD tagged up with Stan MOTHERFUCKIN Hansen when in Japan, fought against Misawa, Kawada, and company... Isn't that enough? I mean, they are just considered the top wrestlers EVER..

 

He had a ton of matches vs. Jerry Lynn, Chris Jericho, Lance Storm, Chris Candido.. Men considered to be top talent. So don't hand me the 'RVD hasn't worked with enough good talent' bullshit.

 

Why is RVD helped by the WWF style? ECW relied on one of two things: High Spots or Blood. There lies the problem. You can have twenty minutes, and only use it to do a spot every couple of minutes. With no need to improve, a person will never improve. The WWF style is more reliant on keeping the action going (most times), therefore a certian degree of technicality is needed..to chain together spots, and such.

 

You are taking the blame off RVD here. ECW let RVD do his thing, he chose to fly around in mindless spots. He chose to do a fucking spingboard moonsault to pick up a fucking chair. He wasn't merely a product of his circumstances.

 

WCW was more relaxed about that sort of thing. RVD/Eddy was thrown out there..to put it nicely.."Save the WWE's ass."

 

Even if Rey/Eddie didn't have it's history, the match still would have been awe-inspiring. It's story was the simple tiny underdog vs. cocky sumbitch rudo, you could just see that visually as the two men stood mid-ring and looked at each other. And to say RVD/Eddie didn't have history/build is sorta forgetting the two PPVs they had against each other and stuff... In anycase, I was talking about match build. They owned that crowd.

 

Much of the offense you'd see in a WCW match is gone. No head drops, no submissions, not much mat-work..just as long as it's punchy-kicky-spot it goes in the WWE. If RVD had been exposed to better workers, is it likely he could be one of the top -wrestlers- in the world? I believe so. He seems to have the ability, and will to be.

 

I don't remember a single piledriver in Rey/Eddie, but anywho, I answered this above

 

Stiffness is a WWE no-no unless one is named 'Hardcore Holly'

 

Or Chris Benoit, or Bradshaw. Fuck, the ladder match was a ladder match! Yet no move in that match had the same impact as Eddie powerbombing Ray and then holding on pulling Rey under him.

 

Rey was also 'brought up' in a different style. Lucha's fast paced, and that influences a guy's style. RVD had more of a 'spot-spot-wait' style.

 

Is it really fair to compare the two? Not really.

 

We are comparing matches, and the ability to perform those matches. Both men have had their spot-based matches, Reys were better for many reasons...

 

Do I believe RVD/Eddy could top Rey/Eddy?

 

If given the same oppertunity, yes.

 

I seriously doubt it. Eddie performs better with smaller, less lumbering guys. They have already had, what, 2 ladder matches and 2 ppv matches? 'If given the same opportunity'? What are you talking about? If the Wwf let RVD go out and cut his strings and gave him and Eddie 13 minutes to have the match, it wouldn't be better.... I just can't imagine it being better because the 2 matches they have had previously which lasted that long didn't come close.

[Guest Nezbyte]

Well all opinions must have reasoning behind it, I don't accept 'it's my opinion' in this case because his opinion is wrong due the factors influencing it. The Rey/Eddie match had better crowd heat, hell the crowd were on their feet after the match. It had better high spots, no denying, a sunset flip powerbomb on a ladder is great, but nothing compared to a tope con hilo turned into a flying headscissors. Is this opinion? Does that not take more skill to pull off? I have yet to see another one of those, yet the powerbomb was done in Hardy/RVD's ladder match as well. How is this my opinion? My opinion is blue is better than black, my opinion is chocolate tastes better than strawberry, but RVD/Eddie vs Eddie/Rey? C'mon. He may like it more, but it certainly isn't better. The case just can't be made. I liked Rock/Hogan more than Rey/Eddie but it wasn't the better match, not by a long shot. We are not discussing 'who do we like more', we are discussing 'who is better'.

Dude, you're being a dick about it. His opinion on a match is different from a move taking alot of skill. It's like comparing Malinko to Rock, one has tons of fucking offense but no charisma, one has tons of fucking charisma, but little offense.

 

Ive yet to see Rey v. Eddy; and just like EPD said: Rey is 5' 4'' 140 or so pounds where as RVD is a heavyweight.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

That's like saying "Eh.. I know RVD can't top Rey Vs. Eddie because he's THAT much of a horrible worker." Well, I say give me RVD/Benoit at Summerslam.. give them 15 more minutes, and there you have it.

 

No, it's like saying "I know RVD can't top Rey/Eddie because he's just not good enough." Plain and simple.

 

If you liked any of the RVD/Eddie matches more than Rey/Eddie, go back, watch the matches again, and you'll see it totally smokes everything RVD has done in his career, including any matches he had with Eddie, which weren't even close. RVD/Benoit was given a sizable amount of time on Raw and wasn't anywhere near the callibre of Rey/Eddie or Rey/Juvi from Tijuana, or a billion other matches Rey has had. Stop trying to insult my intelligence with "he was wrestling an awesome worker" arguements and then following that up with pimping a match that was with the same worker.

 

I'm sure if RVD had the oppertunity to wrestle Malenkos and Guerreros and Ultimo Dragons for several years..he'd be a hell of a lot different than he is now. He's just now coming into his own - what he can do without the ECW influence.

 

RVD has had his opportunities to learn and improve: take his two tours with All Japan Pro Wrestling, for instance. Does his style reflect anything he could have learned there? Of course not. He came back the same worker and is only now starting to change; he's been one of the few guys who has benafitted from tonning it down for the WWE style. He's not limited by it, he's a decent worker because of it. Anymore evolving he does as a worker will only take him further towards the Stamford deffinition of a good wrestler and further away from being a good worker. He won't ever achieve the greatness that Rey and Eddie did in '97, or Rey and Juvi did in '96.

 

A better build? Both matches had damned good builds in my opinion.

 

RVD and Eddy didn't even go for any kind of build, they just went out there and did spots. There wasn't any build to speak of. Nope.

 

Was completely flawless? Very true.. Rey/Eddie didn't have any botched spots (broken ladders) or fans running in it.

 

Rey/Eddie also knew how to structure the match so that the spots they did meant something and there was a clear cut face/heel structure that engaged the fans while building to climax. RVD/Eddy was a whole lot of moves that meant nothing and, therefore, became wasted motions.

 

Both matches had the crowd in the palm of their hands.

 

Hmmm....did you watch the match? How come the crowd just completely loses interest in everything Eddy's doing about fifteen minutes in? Shit, Benoit pressance at ringside was enough to make them practically forget about the match altogether. They never had them, not really. That' can be easilly seen when there is no heat inbetween spots, no drama to see which person will win, no suggestion that these two have fought before, or if this match in particular stands out as anything. Just a whole lot of nothing, really.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I'm not being a dick about it, I am being real. I am being objective. I have no personal bias towards Rey Jr, nor do I have any against RVD. I like both men equally, maybe RVD a bit more.

 

Comparing (making comparisons to)Malenko/Rock and Rey/RVD is like comparing, well, Malenko/Rock. Rey and RVD both rely on high flying and spots in their matches, do they not? Therefore they are not *that* different. Malenko relies on smooth transitions and well executed holds while Rock relies on speedy offense and gestures towards the crowd... BIG DIFFERENCE.

[Guest Nezbyte]

I'm not being a dick about it, I am being real. I am being objective. I have no personal bias towards Rey Jr, nor do I have any against RVD. I like both men equally, maybe RVD a bit more.

 

Comparing (making comparisons to)Malenko/Rock and Rey/RVD is like comparing, well, Malenko/Rock. Rey and RVD both rely on high flying and spots in their matches, do they not? Therefore they are not *that* different. Malenko relies on smooth transitions and well executed holds while Rock relies on speedy offense and gestures towards the crowd... BIG DIFFERENCE.

I never compared Rey/RVD to Dean/Rocky. I compared difficulty of moves to the overall match. Rocky has had about the same amount of great matches as Dean, but his will be remembered by the general public, where as Dean's will only remembered by Die-Hards, the Japanese, and Net Marks.

 

And yes, you were being a dick about it.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

I have a feeling this is going to be a teensy bit one-sided (unwinnable) but I'm gonna give it a shot.

[Guest Flyboy]

Geez, guys..

 

I just went and watched both matches.. Eddie/Rey... wow. I could EASILY see how you guys would say its a better match (because actually in terms IT IS), but I ENJOYED Eddie/RVD more.

 

Plain and simple.