What is the greatest WWE/WWF match ever?

[Guest DrainYou42]

HBK/Ramon. The match showed that the 'smaller guys' (In comparison to the fat guys that were pushed in the 80's and early 90's) could work exciting, inovative and all around better matches than their larger counterparts, and one of the matches that defined the WWF in the 90's.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Bret and Owen did the same thing better on the same night...without a gimmick

[Guest areacode212]

Best: Bret/Austin (Survivor Series)

Favorite: Bret/Austin (WrestleMania)

 

Well, I was wondering what to do on this boring Saturday night, and after reading this thread, I think I'll pop in my Steve Austin comp (which contains 2 Bret/Austin matches and Benoit/Austin).

 

I wonder if anyone out there has a satellite feed version of the Edmonton match. The one that aired on Smackdown was supposedly clipped by a couple of minutes, because of time restrictions. I feel kind of...cheated.

[Guest Downhome]

Oh my God, I'm looking through my tapes right now, many, many tapes I've recorded stuff on through the years, which I never labled (which is why I'm going through all of them), and I just came across WrestleMania X, with that damn fine Bret Vs. Owen match on it. Yes folks...

 

...it is my lucky day!

[Guest Downhome]

As I sit here skimming over WMX, was there a reason they had Earthquake beat Adam Bomb in 40 seconds? Something backstage perhaps?

[Guest Big McLargeHuge]

HBK/Ramon. The match showed that the 'smaller guys' (In comparison to the fat guys that were pushed in the 80's and early 90's) could work exciting, inovative and all around better matches than their larger counterparts, and one of the matches that defined the WWF in the 90's.

No. If any match proved that it was Savage/Steamboat nearly a decade earlier.

 

I stand by the brilliance of Bret/Owen.

[Guest Kid Kablam]

As good as Brett vs Austin is, I don't like the early brawling. Maybe it's just that I hate it when two wrestlers go throught the crowd, or maybe it was just that I wanted to see Brett start working his brilliance (which he later did with the greatest figure four ever) but I could do without the opening brawl. And personally I didn't like the match as much when Austin controlled. It was the one time that I felt Austin's working the crowd hurt the match. Brett was just awesome. Now, most people know how big of a fan I am of Benoit, but when I first saw the Benoit/Austin Smackdown match I didn't particularly like it. The spot where they were constantly reversing the sharpshooter got a bit tired quickly. However, having grown in my understanding of wrestling I would probably like it a bit more.

[Guest Big McLargeHuge]

As good as Brett vs Austin is, I don't like the early brawling. Maybe it's just that I hate it when two wrestlers go throught the crowd, or maybe it was just that I wanted to see Brett start working his brilliance (which he later did with the greatest figure four ever) but I could do without the opening brawl. And personally I didn't like the match as much when Austin controlled. It was the one time that I felt Austin's working the crowd hurt the match. Brett was just awesome.

That's pretty much the same problem I had with Trips/Cactus from RR 2k. The crowd brawling just killed me.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

That match was the first WWE match to do that.

 

Then they overkilled it and did it all the time.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Interesting topic. Honestly, I can't seem to pick just one match out of all of the awesome ones I've seen.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

What about:

 

Michaels/Ramon from WM 10

Austin/Michaels from KOTR 1997

UT/Michaels from Badd Blood

Savage/Steamboat from WM 3

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Actually, you touched upon one of my main gripes with Austin/Bret: The early brawling is a bit on the weak side. However, as bps pointed out, that was a big deal at the time, but it still weakens the match for me, as it really hasn't aged well since that type of thing is quite normal these days. My other gripe would be that they didn't re-use the Cobra Clutch reversal sequence that ended their '96 match, which is just irresponsible. It's still my favorite, but those two things are what keep me from ranking it among their '96 match and Hart/Hart. Austin/Benoit is probably up there, too, but I need to watch it again.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Not knocking your choices, but the finish to Austin/Micheals at KOTR 97 REALLY pissed me off. If it had had an actual finish, then I wouldn't have had a problem with it.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Michaels/Ramon was a very smartly-worked match and very influential, but very reliant on the gimick with little else of substance. Sure, it's still quite dramatic, but it's been done better since and just hasn't aged as well as others. It's still a very good match, but not up there with some of the other matches previously named.

 

I've never seen Austin/Michaels from '97, believe it or not.

 

UT/Michaels is really just a one-sided bump fest for Michaels as he nonchalantly flies around the ring like a pinball. Just too much of a squash most of the way through. Many of the spots took a while to set up, and the ending doesn't sit well with me at all.

 

Savage/Steamboat was quite revolutionary for it's time, but just doesn't develope that much as a story and seems like they were trying to cram as much as they could into what little time they had. Aging hasn't been too good to that one, either.

[Guest bob_barron]

HBK controls a lot during HIAC. He beats Taker for a pretty long time- remember the piledriver on the steps?

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Oh come on, the whole point of the match was to separate Hart from that kind of 'technical' stuff (the cobra clutch reversal) the fact that they didn't strengthens the match IMO.

 

The Brawling was pretty standard, this is true, BUT the intensity that they went at each other with hasn't been duplicated to this day.. At least as long as I can remember.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I have to agree with Ricky on this one.

 

The point is that Austin would have kicked out this time...

 

futher establishing that Bret's technical stuff couldn't get the job done.

 

Even the sharpshooter couldn't beat Austin.

 

It won the match, but it didn't beat the man.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

True, Michaels controlled a decent amount, but Taker's selling was pretty sub-standard and it never felt like Shawn ever had a chance of downing the guy on his own, especialy how he over-sold all of Taker's offense the second he came back. I dunno, just felt squashish to me.

 

I think it would have been perfect, because it would have given Hart another obstacle to over-come using new tactics. With the rules of an "I Quit" match, he could not have used his clever role up to score the upset, and thus, would have to use more desperate (read: dirty) tactics to escape, and thus, it would have fit the storyline perfectly. The opportunity was there, and I know it's actually very minor, it bothers me, because after being upset by Hart stealing the win from him '96, it would have been great to bust out the Cobra Clutch as a type of slap in the face to Bret. Kind of like "hey, you used this to steal a win from me before, but you can't do that now, so fuck you!" What can I say? It bugs me.

[Guest JaKyL25]

Hate to sound like a bandwagon jumper, but my vote goes for

 

Bret vs. Owen, WM X.

 

Although honorable mentions to:

 

Bret vs. Austin, SurSer '96

HHH vs. Cactus, Rumble '00

HBK vs. Razor, WM X

 

The 4 most perfect matches ever in the WWF, IMO.

 

As far as the Million Dollar Dream spot not being re-used in the Mania match, keep in mind that it was a Submission match, so Austin would really have no use for the Dream except maybe to put Bret to sleep and get the submission by KO, but that DEFINITELY was NOT Austin's goal if he could help it.

 

So therefore they didn't re-do it until the 10-man tag, when it made sense again, and Austin showed his improvement by breaking the hold before getting pinned (Did they do it at Revenge of Taker? I haven't seen that match in AGES). Then Rock used it on him at Mania XVII, with the same result, and then FINALLY the spot was rendered useless against Austin in the Angle match at Summerslam, where he used the Dream, Angle did the rope-flip pin attempt, and Austin not only escaped, but escaped WITH the hold intact. Genius.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Oh yeah...I forgot it was an I quit match.

 

Silly me

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I guess it can be looked at in that way, but I thought it would just be a clever "slap in the face" to Bret. I guess, conceivable, Bret could have said "I Quit" while in the Cobra Clutch, but, like you said, that wasn't Austin's goal. At the same time, I think it would have shown the evolution of Bret from the '96 match, and how he would have to do more than that to take out Austin this time. I dunno, I think it would have fit.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Here was my review on the match:

 

'Stone Cold Steve Austin vs. Bret 'The Hitman' Hart, Wrestlemania 13.

 

My thoughts on this match is funny. When I first saw it I liked it. The blood, the intensity, the pass-out finish... All great stuff. Then when I became a, ahem, smark I went around praising it like it was the second coming of Jesus. Then I despised it. Not despised it so much as picked holes in it. "The Psychology ISN'T THERE~!' I said.

 

I figured the match was a 'Traditionalist' vs. 'Anarchist', or 'Old School' vs. 'New School' sort of thing and expected the match to be presented that way. But nowhere in the match did they distinguish this. It was a full out brawl with no distinguishable psychology. Bret wasn't cunning with his Old Dog Techniques to keep the young buck in Austin down. And Austin didn't whip out any 'new tricks'. Since the match didn't reflect the 'story' I assumed that it was not fully effective. Sure it was a great match, but it had nothing you could grasp and show another person what made it great.

 

It took a conversation with another wrestling fan to put the match into focus.

 

Bret Hart was a Traditionalist turned Anarchist... He became what he hated and it showed in that match. The match had no traditional 'New' vs. 'Old' psychology because Bret Hart lost his Tradition, it was an all out brawl. He lowered himself to the levels of Austin while still claiming to be the Excellence of Execution. It was his hypocrisy which turned him. This is the main focus, this match was about Bret Hart.

 

Steve Austin's 'never say die' attitude would be the first choice people would make for 'the story of the match', yet it is Bret BECOMING Steve Austin which 'made' this match what it was. He was the foil to Austin’s Anti-Hero. There is no greater evil than a man giving up on his principles. Austin kept consistent, he raised hell and was proud of it. Bret spoke sweet in public, but behind closed doors was a different story.

 

Stone Cold was absolutely gold in this match. From his head swaggering to his limping 'salutes' to referee Ken Shamrock when asked if he wanted to quit, Steve Austin played his role to perfection. The most memorable moment in the 'attitude' era is the bloody face crying out in pain yet never saying die. Even before the word 'Attitude' was muttered at Titan Towers, there was the face of a new generation waiting to change the industry.

[Guest JaKyL25]

Okay, let's say for the sake of argument that Austin DID slap the Cobra Clutch on during the Mania match. Now, as we've already established, Austin wasn't going for a KO victory by putting Bret to sleep, so therefore the following conclusions seem to be the most likely:

 

1.) Bret instinctively tries the turnbuckle-flip counter. Since it's a submission match, Austin can't be pinned, and doesn't have to break, but now isn't Bret basically just pressing his entire body weight down onto Austin's head and shoulders? Not too pleasant, and I would imagine that Austin would break because he would look quite stupid laying there like that. If he tried to get Bret back to his feet, Bret could just keep doing it.

 

2.) Bret develops a counter-hold. It's not beyond the realm of contention that Austin might have been thinking that since the pin-counter was useless in the submission rules, and since Bret KNEW that Austin had that possibly match-winning hold in his arsenel, that he would fear a counter by Bret, and therefore wouldn't do the hold.

 

3.) Bret simply makes it to the ropes, as submissions weren't legal in the ropes. Austin wouldn't be forced to break, but at that point the only reason to keep the hold on would be to put Bret to sleep, which we've established wasn't Austin's goal.

 

Since none of these scenarios end up in Austin's favor, I can see why the Cobra Clutch was not utilized. I could be missing something though.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

It could be a tool for Austin to stick it to Bret by doing something that he had no counter to this time. It wouldn't neccesarilly be a tool for winning the match, but even if it were, who's to say Bret would have come up with another counter? It's Austin showing Bret that the same shit wasn't going to get it done this time, and that he had a hold Bret hadn't been able to deal with fully yet. So yeah, that's what I would consider the best explanation, but I can understand your points as well.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

That is conventional wrestling Ricky, this match was the OPPOSITE of conventional. It was anarchistic, it was all over the place, it was anti-traditional.

[Guest Brian]

Bret vs. Flair, Iron Man Match, Boston Circa 1992.

[Guest areacode212]

Actually, you touched upon one of my main gripes with Austin/Bret: The early brawling is a bit on the weak side. However, as bps pointed out, that was a big deal at the time, but it still weakens the match for me, as it really hasn't aged well since that type of thing is quite normal these days.

This is one of the instances where having such a hot crowd really helps me enjoy the match. Sure, we've seen brawling through the crowd a million times since then, but the fact that THIS particular crowd is completely loving it and going apeshit gets me wrapped up in the moment. I mark out every time I see them going up those steps.

 

If I were watching with the sound off, I'd probably feel the same way you do.

[Guest ManKinnd]

Austin/Bret at WM is sickeningly good, but the early brawling is weak compared to what they do in the ring. I'll go out on a limb and give it ****3/4 because of it too. I'm surprised no one has mentioned Austin/Dude Love, which, brawling wise, I think has the WM13 classic beat. That heat was magnificent too. Both HHH/Cactus 2000 matches were amazing. I know the HIAC doesn't get much recognicion next to the street fight, but it's the best HIAC ever, for what that's worth, and captured a little more emotion than the rumble. But Maybe I'm just a Foley mark.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I understand that the match was supposed to be anarchy, but there were still some semblances of order put in there to excentuate the pure insanity, I think that spot could have been one of them.

 

I guess I'm just a mark for the "repeat a spot from a previous match, but see how each guy has learned" factor in re-matches.

 

While Austin/Dude may have had better brawling, without the over-booking, that's really all it was. While that match was also quite influencial over the "WWF Style", Austin/Hart was just a better brawl that seemed to transcend that style altogether while molding it.

[Guest Shanghai Kid 2002]

I don't think The Cactus/HHH HIAC is better than Undertaker/HBK. Than again, HBK/Undertaker is one of the biggest carry jobs ever.

 

I have a few picks, they are:

 

Cactus/HHH Streetfight- Probably the best flat out brawl I have ever seen in the WWF. Lots of emotion and a good pace.

 

Bret vs Owen CAGE match- I actually prefer this over the Wrestlemania match just because it mixes the technical warfare with much more excitement than the Wrestlemania match. It may not be the better match, but it's surely more entertaining.

 

IMO, Steamboat vs Savage felt a little rushed. If had they 10 more minutes, and kept up the pace, it would of been one of the best of all time. It still is, and I might be the only one who gets that rushed feeling when watching it.