Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted August 20, 2002 I suppose you say the ladder match is one of the top 3 WWF matches...if you like gimick matches that really completely on said gimick with otherwise pedestrian ring-work. "Selling to the max" equalls rotating 360 degrees off a punch? That's over-selling, and it doesn't make a match great, it makes it unrealistic, and stupid. Shawn's goofy selling never made any match. When he toned it down and, you know, wrestled, it was fine, and he had some good matches through the years, but some of it overrated, overblown, and generally the opposite of what I would call "great" and that includes v. Diesel. How people can call HIAC I "one of the best WWF matches ever" still boggles my mind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BigTim2002 Report post Posted August 20, 2002 I still see it as fucking great, just because it was all about the STORY, which was SHAWN COULDN'T RUN FROM THE UNDERTAKER THIS TIME! That's why the cage was constructed, so that there was NO way Shawn could escape. That's why I liked it. Just because Shawn got like no offense in doesn't mean it wasn't great. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RicFlairGlory Report post Posted August 20, 2002 Man he had control of that match for at least a short while, at least long enough to piledrive 'Taker onto the steel steps Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dangerous A Report post Posted August 20, 2002 The whole thing about HBK was that he was the one of the only people who could pull off overselling. Call it whatever, but he had the moxy to pull it off and entertain the crowd with it. Plus his timing of when to do it worked well with the crowd. Other wrestlers like Angle, HHH, Rock, and SCSA just don't come off looking good overselling like HBK. That is part of the man's mystique. There were certain things he could do that others wouldn't look good doing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted August 20, 2002 I never said it wasn't great...for a glorified squash with a screw job ending. I have no idea what you mean about Shawn being able to "pull off" over-selling. Shawn bouncing around like a pin-ball is just as bad as Hennig or Waltman doing the same thing. Over-selling is over-selling, and even if it plays to crowd, it takes away from the realism of a match. Why should I care about Shawn getting beat up if it's the equivolent to Daffy Duck getting beat up? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Downhome Report post Posted August 20, 2002 Just for the record, after RAW went off, me and my cousin kept watching the infamous "HBK Rope Trip" over and over again, for almost 20 minutes. Call me a bastard, but that was one of the funniest things I have ever seen in Pro. Wrestling. Go get your tape, and slow-mo it right as he is doing it, and you can see the fear in his, and everyone else's eyes. Add commentary if you like... "Ok, I'm going to jump over the ropes and dive on HHH. Ok, I need to grap the ropes to help my jump over. Yes, I'm doing it, yes! Oh God, no, my leg didn't make it over. Holy sh*t, my foot is caught on the rope now, aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Catch me Hunter, catch me!!!!!" ...sorry, but I found it rather amusing. Fellow smarks, this is the reason that HBK should not be in this match. IF his back is truly as bad off as they are leading us to believe, then there is no point in taking risks like that, period. Don't get me wrong, I love the guy, but I don't want to watch him kill himself... ...like he very well could have done tonight. and THAT is something which I would not have been laughing at, period. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Downhome Report post Posted August 20, 2002 As for HBK as a performer in the past, I have almost always enjoyed his matches. If not for the in-ring action, then at least for the circumstances surrounding said matches. He isn't/wasn't the greatest worker ever, but he made up for that by being one of the most charismatic, hard working, bumping guys that I can remember. As for his match at Summerslam, well, I'll wait untill Sunday night to pass my judgement on that one. Also, as far as gimmick matches go, I don't feel there is any right trying to compare them to normal matches. In my mind, there is a list of greatest "wrestling matches" and greatest "gimmick matches", and in both groupings, Shawn has been in some of the best out there, at least on my list. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted August 20, 2002 I know it's that big a deal, but if I hear one more meaningles superlative like "hard-working" in regards to a wrestler, I'll burst. What do you mean by that, by the way? Effort in his matches? Attention to his craft. Seeing as Shawn partied his way through most of his career and then managed to "lose his smile" whenever he was booked to job, it's deffinitely not the ladder. As for charisma, I'll put it this way: Have you seen his recent interviews? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Shanghai Kid 2002 Report post Posted August 20, 2002 I think Shawn was just selling the back injury. Maybe we have underestimated what Shawn can do and what he can't do. I think he might be able to take basic bumps, but nobody is expecting him to jump of the Titantron through or a table or anything like that. I've been saying that the match has hope, and i'm thinking ***. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Downhome Report post Posted August 20, 2002 I know it's that big a deal, but if I hear one more meaningles superlative like "hard-working" in regards to a wrestler, I'll burst. What do you mean by that, by the way? Effort in his matches? Attention to his craft. Seeing as Shawn partied his way through most of his career and then managed to "lose his smile" whenever he was booked to job, it's deffinitely not the ladder. As for charisma, I'll put it this way: Have you seen his recent interviews? By "hard working", I mean that he doesn't act like he doesn't care about the match he is participating in, aka, isn't totally lazy. I am not basing this on just a few matches of HBK, but dating all the way back to the late 80's. You may not think so, but I always looked at his matches as him putting forth great effort, and it usually was apparent. As for charisma, he sucks like hell "out of character", but on TV, when he was HBK, he was/is just great. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted August 20, 2002 Yeah, Shawn did work hard most of the time, but then again, that's pretty much a given in pro wrestling. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted August 20, 2002 Didn't shawn have a reputation of 'dogging it' in his later days in the Wwf with guys he didn't want to work with? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JAxlMorrison Report post Posted August 20, 2002 Michaels was SELLING the back pain, obviously. I am suprised you guys haven't seen the line between work and shoot by now. He did however, screw up his dive over the top rope, ,but all in all, I think he looked good, and tonight was the first time in a while I have jumped up out of my chair and popped. Enjoy it while it lasts people. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RicFlairGlory Report post Posted August 20, 2002 His last 4 PPV matches... WM 14- vs. Austin RR '98- Casket Match vs. Taker DX '97- vs Ken Shamrock SS '97- vs Bret Hart BB '97- Hell In A Cell vs. Taker And only one was a forgettable show (Shamrock), otherwise, he did well in 'em all, so I dont really think he was dogging it... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted August 20, 2002 Didn't shawn have a reputation of 'dogging it' in his later days in the Wwf with guys he didn't want to work with? Oh man, I don't know if I'll ever get over Vs. Bulldog where he just throws the biggest hissy fit in the history of hissy fits and generall acts like an ass. Shawn did indeed become a huge prick near the end of his WWF career. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RicFlairGlory Report post Posted August 20, 2002 err, last 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RicFlairGlory Report post Posted August 20, 2002 Oh dont get me wrong that Bulldog match was just a complete breakdown on Shawns part, but the last 6 months, aside the 'tantrum' if you want to call it that at the Survivor Series (likely a work, so who cares), he seemed pretty agreeable Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted August 20, 2002 Vs. Vader pissed me off too. For someone who critisized Bret so much for not dropping the title a year later, Shawn sure was reluctant to job the strap to anyone not named Sid. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted August 20, 2002 I heard that Shawn dropped the strap to sid rather than vader because he knew Vader would go further than he (shawn) could and that Sid would bomb as champ and Vince would put the title back on him (shawn). ANYWAYS. GORDY LIST~! http://www.otherarena.com/cgi/post.cgi?758...01&1&4&eighties Good read. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest evenflowDDT Report post Posted August 20, 2002 I wasn't that impressed either, especially with his foot getting caught on the rope and that back oversell... plus I don't understand the WWE's logic in making "The Next Big Thing", this really tough bad-ass guy (who Rocky even put over in those SummerSlam training promos [!]), being squashed by someone who's supposed to be a has-been who can't wrestle and is going to be "crippled" on Sunday? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted August 20, 2002 HHH IS HOLDING DOWN LESNAR! THERE! I said it. Someone had to. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest SlowChemical6 Report post Posted August 20, 2002 Well, HBK did do great at WrestleMania 14 as far as gutting it out and putting on a decent performance, but the match itself was *** at best. The WrestleMania factor, the hype surrounding Mike Tyson, and the fact that it was the start of the Austin era and the end of the HBK era have added to its perceived "greatness". But I agree, he pretty much kicked ass on pay-per-view from 1996-1998: In Your House, February 1996, vs. Owen Hart - Sweet match. It's a shame that they didn't wrestle more often, because I seem to remember them having a really good match on RAW is WAR in late 1997 too. **** WrestleMania XII, vs. Bret Hart - I give this one *****. A lot of people try to dog this match because it was a clash of egos, but I agree with the WWE and the pro wrestling mags who nominated this 1996 MOTY. In Your House: Beware of Dog, April 1996, vs. The British Bulldog - Their match at King of the Ring was even better, but I remember this one being somewhere in the **** neighborhood. Not even a power outage could stop HBK. In Your House: Good Friends, Better Enemies, May 1996, vs. Diesel - A **** no holds barred slobber-knocker that told a great story and also set the standard for brawls in the WWE. Resembled a really good climactic fight scene in a movie. King of the Ring 1996, vs. The British Bulldog - Very, very underrated match. Steve Austin stole the show, but it's still **** 1/2 in my book. In Your House, July 1996, w/ Ahmed Johnson & Sid vs. Vader, Owen Hart, and the British Bulldog - ****, and Shawn had Ahmed and Sid to work with. SummerSlam 1996, vs. Vader - Some people hated the finish, I thought it was a pretty cool concept. Love it or hate it, the match itself still rocked. **** 1/4-**** 1/2. In Your House: Mind Games, September 1996, vs. Mankind - 'Nuff said. ***** In Your House: Buried Alive, October 1996 - Didn't wrestle. Survivor Series 1996, vs. Sycho Sid - When you can get **** 1/4 out of Sid, you know you are a God. In Your House: It's Time, December 1996 - Didn't wrestle. Royal Rumble 1997, vs. Sid - Okay, this wasn't that great. The atmosphere was greater than the match itself. But consider this...this was a "bad" HBK match, and it was ***. What if every wrestler's worst match was ***? WrestleMania 13 - Lost his smile. In Your House: Revenge of the Taker, April 1997 - Still looking for that damn smile. In Your House: A Cold Day In Hell, May 1997 - ...nope, still looking... King of the Ring 1997, vs. Stone Cold Steve Austin - Ah, there it is! HBK said in his RF shoot interview that he and Steve went out there and had "some sort of half-assed gimpy-kneed match". Well, once again, you know you're good when your half-assed matches are **** 1/4 WITH a screwy finish. In Your House: Canadian Stampede, July 1997 - The smile took off again. SummerSlam 1997 - He made the match and he wasn't even in it. One Night Only - Another awesome HBK/Bulldog outing. **** 1/4 In Your House: Ground Zero, September 1997 - Nothing but a brawl...a **** brawl, that is. In Your House: Badd Blood, October 1997 - I'm gonna go with Shawn's own assessment of this match: "Cool, very cool." *****, the best Hell in the Cell of 'em all, and by the way...the Kane finish was cool. Survivor Series 1997, vs. Bret Hart - **** or so, which was all that you could really ask for given the circumstances. Bret didn't want to job, HBK knew that it would be absurd to job to a guy leaving for WCW, there was the chance of a shoot breaking out, tension in the arena was high, Shawn knew what was gonna go down...he did the best that he could. In Your House: DX, December 1997, vs. Ken Shamrock - This is the only bad match that I can recall HBK having in that 2-year span. I think that he phoned it in because: a) It was a meaningless pay-per-view, B) The venue absolutely sucked, c) Shamrock was green as a four-leaf clover, d) WWE was slamming the brakes on Shamrock's push, and e) The finish was lame and screwy to the 10th degree. I think that Shawn could have carried Shamrock if he *wanted* to, as evidenced by the Survivor Series '96 match with Sid. Bigger pay-per-view, better venue, better opponent, better finish. Royal Rumble 1998, vs. Undertaker - *** 1/2 or so. Shawn's last healthy match. WrestleMania XIV, vs. Stone Cold Steve Austin - ***-*** 1/2. Gotta admire anything over ** considering the condition of Shawn's back. I think that Austin could have done more to save this match, but that's just my opinion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Man in Blak Report post Posted August 20, 2002 I wasn't that impressed either, especially with his foot getting caught on the rope and that back oversell... plus I don't understand the WWE's logic in making "The Next Big Thing", this really tough bad-ass guy (who Rocky even put over in those SummerSlam training promos [!]), being squashed by someone who's supposed to be a has-been who can't wrestle and is going to be "crippled" on Sunday? I echo these sentiments. Lesnar should NOT be selling for Michaels at any stage of the game, let alone the build-up to his frickin' Undisputed Championship win. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted August 20, 2002 There is no way that Vs. Bret is *****. I mean, for match to even approach MOTY it has to have some semblance of STORY, and that match did not. Bad selling, + meaningless matwork = bad match, and I don't see how anyone can even suggest that as MOTY with both Foley/Michaels and Austin/Hart smoking the hell out of it in every aspect possible. As for Beware of the Dog, if there's an example of how much of an unprofesional asshole Michaels is, there you go. If you think wrestlers throwing temper tantrums makes for greatness, I guess this is ****. Whatever. Vs. Vader. Yet another example of an unprofesional goofball thinking he's above the company and fucking over Vader. No where near Vader's best work, and Michaels was in full prick mode. Don't get your rating on this at all. Vs. Foley wasn't ***** by my count, but still good. Even with a better finish, it's not *****, or even North American MOTY, really. Vs. Sid in '96 was no-where near what you gave it. Good for Sid? Yes. Good? Not at all. Good for Sid, mediocre overall. The one from '97 was just plain awfull. I don't know how you can defend that as *** even. Nash was having better matches at the time. The rest I really can't comment on, except for, of course, Bad Blood (already gave my thoughts) and Survivor Series '97, which I won't by choice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen Report post Posted August 20, 2002 I love how Chosyu is trying to bury Michaels at every turn by using his ego. Ricky: 1. We care about in the ring, not backstage hissyfits 2. He backed up that ego by carrying anything with legs to *** or above from 95-97 Dude give it up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest SlowChemical6 Report post Posted August 20, 2002 How fairly can somebody who clearly *despises* HBK for his over-the-top, non-puro ring style and backstage rep rate a Shawn Michaels ma...? ...wait a minute. RickyChosyu must be Bret. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest pochorenella Report post Posted August 20, 2002 1. We care about in the ring, not backstage hissyfits 2. He backed up that ego by carrying anything with legs to *** or above from 95-97 Come on, guys. Ricky, you've made your point: You just don't like Shawn Michaels, be it his ring work, his backstage power, his temper, whatever. Chemical, you've made yours as well. And I'm with MrZsasz that I don't care about backstage problems or whatever. Shawn was a superb in-ring worker who could carry anybody to a good/great match. He's my favorite as well, so I'm eagerly waiting to see his output at SummerSlam. If it's bad then no doubt many many will say "I told you so" or something. So let them. Me, I'll just be happy to see him come out to his music and put on a show. If it's bad it's bad. If it's good I'll be happier. How fairly can somebody who clearly *despises* HBK for his over-the-top, non-puro ring style and backstage rep rate a Shawn Michaels ma...? ...wait a minute. RickyChosyu must be Bret No offense, Ricky. I like you from the Anime Thread, but this is very funny. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest NazMistry Report post Posted August 20, 2002 I still see it as fucking great, just because it was all about the STORY, which was SHAWN COULDN'T RUN FROM THE UNDERTAKER THIS TIME! That's why the cage was constructed, so that there was NO way Shawn could escape. That's why I liked it. Just because Shawn got like no offense in doesn't mean it wasn't great. What great story? Once HBK escaped the Cell and they fought on the outside, the story and psychology of the Hell In A Cell was destroyed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen Report post Posted August 20, 2002 No the story was still there. No matter how hard he tried he JUST COULDN'T STOP THE TAKER! Taker n sold everything he had and destroyed him before calling for the Tombstone and being decimated by Kane. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Nevermortal Report post Posted August 20, 2002 This thread makes me want to swear off wrestling altogether. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
