Guest AlwaysPissedOff Report post Posted August 30, 2002 As long as it's kept within reason.. HHH DOES eat up a lot of airtime, APO. With the heels.. They need to win some. No heel but a Hoss or HHH heel gets clean wins. They're all humilliated or beaten down constantly. We don't need WCW heel wins all the time, but would it hurt to put Storm/Christian over some guys cleanly? I never denied that HHH does eat up a lot of airtime, BUT it didn't fit in context of this thread, so it's just more worthless HHHating horseshit. If he wants to bitch about Trips to his heart's content, then he can take my advice and go over to NHB and make a HHH thread along the thousands of other ones there. There's no reason for him to clog up discussion about the topic just so he can whine about Trips some more. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest El Psycho Diablo Report post Posted August 30, 2002 Someone mentioned going back to athletic competition.. It's not a bad idea. People were into the RVD/Dreamer match, and it was just two guys going in a match. They need to not be afraid about putting Face/Face matches, or even Heel/Heel matches. Who knows who the crowd will latch onto and cheer, or who they'll hate? I think they should get away from DQ's, runins, screwy match endings, and go for mostly pinfalls. Make it so when a guy gets disqualified, it's something. Make it so when a guy runs in, it's something. As it is now, it dosen't mean anything. Shake things up a bit. Take away the 20 minute promos, and add onto the match time. Start writing GOOD segments instead of lame ones. As for storylines.. Keep it simple, stupid. The overblown, dramatic stuff (HHH/HBK's infamous revelation) dosen't go over well because it's usually written very badly. Get rid of the stinkfacing, and pantsing, and humilliating, and grow up. This isn't the "Attitude" era anymore. Crash TV isn't necessary. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Brian Report post Posted August 30, 2002 That's not true. He's been upset with his position since NWO day one. He was used as a stepping stone to build up HHH's opponent at WrestleMania. But that doesn't mean he wasn't going to put Eddie over. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RavishingRickRudo Report post Posted August 30, 2002 "Tradition" is the new "Attitude". Think of it, "Attitude" was something radical that came along at a time when the state of wrestling was at flux. "Attitude" was taboo at the time; just like "Tradition" was in the Attitude Era and is now... So the question is; who will be the steve austin and dx of this era? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Olympic Slam Report post Posted August 30, 2002 A few possible 8 man main event wheels that can be implemented in short time. 1. Faces - Undertaker, Chris Jericho, Edge, Kane Heels - HHH, Brock Lesnar, Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit I admit it doesn't look pretty as star power has defintely been drained from the company. Rock, Austin, Hogan, all out. The first batch is definitely geared more towards the heels. With the exception of Lesnar, the other guys have enough character and charisma to make the fans care about any of the above faces. Remember, Benoit's lack of charisma HELPS his character. He, not Lesnar is the true monster of the company. 2. Here's an expanded, poor man's version. Faces - Undertaker, Edge, Kurt Angle, Kane, RVD Heels - HHH, Benoit, Lesnar, Big Show, Chris Jericho The second one is pretty balanced however Big Show remains the biggest problem. He's better as a face, but he can't be feuding against little heels like Jericho or Angle all the time. That situation works much better reversed. Again, it's not pretty but it's better than nothing. Ideally Kane would be the heel and Jericho the face but Jericho's been ruined beyond repair and I feel Kane can be become a factor now that he's getting a fresh start. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AndrewTS Report post Posted August 31, 2002 That's not true. He's been upset with his position since NWO day one. He was used as a stepping stone to build up HHH's opponent at WrestleMania. But that doesn't mean he wasn't going to put Eddie over. Neither were lots of people. Bringing the nWo in was obviously a huge mistake, since it brought in guys known for their bad attitude and work ethic back into a locker room whose morale was already in steady decline. How would you feel if you were a wrestler busting your ass, trying to get ahead--then hear that a known alcoholic, an immobile lazy slug, and the man who had put himself over nearly every strong contender in WCW and made sure Ed Leslie got a job--were all coming in. And the 2 "healthy" ones would main event. Thankfully, Hogan hadn't been much trouble. Plus it gave X-Pac a reason to want to be pushed again down the line. Austin was opposed to the nWo angle, but went along with it--even complaining that they weren't booked strong enough. After the nWo began to fall apart, it was then the issue with guys like Eddy. I have no way of knowing if he was planning to put Eddy over, but if Eddy was booked strongly against him, he would have gotten a tremendous rub. Lesnar was the last straw. Keep in mind that it wasn't jobbing to Lesnar, per say, rather than hotshotting that match with no buildup. If there was SOME sort of build up, it could have done wonders for Lesnar. However, to Austin it seemed like he was getting the shaft as the booking team did something else stupid. About the Benoit promo It was actually a disguised commercial for the Aggression CD (...wouldn't it have been more timely to put it out when it just came out?), but it was playing his theme while he cut a promo. Being his no-nonsense bad-ass self. Including brief clips and the thumb dragging across the throat. He looked freakin' scary. -------------------------------- Feel free to skip this part -------------------------------- Oh...can't forget.. *sends PM to APO* I must congratulate you on your fine manners, APO. Thank you for telling me to "shut the fuck up," because I was wrong and you were right, and I shouldn't have written an entire post consisting of just HHH-bashing--wait, I didn't. Oh, false alarm. Get a clue, APO. You know why Lesnar beat Rock? HHH softened up the ribs for him--Real Deal even predicted it on Wrestlecrap last week. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted August 31, 2002 If his rumored face turn DOES happen, he's got to step up his game if the WWE fucks up the Brock reign any more then they've already done. They fucked up the Brock reign when they gave it to BROCK "I COULD BEAT UP MOTHER THERESA AND THE FANS WOULDN'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT MY SLOW POLDDING OFFENSE" LESNAR! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted August 31, 2002 If they don't get a push, they never get the chance to showcase their potential. If RVD hadn't gotten the initial push and had been thrown aside like Dreamer, would he be where he is now? 5 months in RVD: Over, Good matches, Hardcore champion Brock: Not/mildly over, bad/awful matches, world champion. The similarities are amazing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AlwaysPissedOff Report post Posted August 31, 2002 -------------------------------- Feel free to skip this part -------------------------------- Oh...can't forget.. *sends PM to APO* I must congratulate you on your fine manners, APO. Thank you for telling me to "shut the fuck up," because I was wrong and you were right, and I shouldn't have written an entire post consisting of just HHH-bashing--wait, I didn't. Oh, false alarm. Get a clue, APO. You know why Lesnar beat Rock? HHH softened up the ribs for him--Real Deal even predicted it on Wrestlecrap last week. Oh, this should be FUN! At NO point in either of my replies did I say that your post was "all HHH" or did I claim "you were wrong and I was right". Hell, I can admit that I jumped the gun with my reply and I apologize for that, no problem, but you basically assumed shit about me just like I did about your post, so I guess that's another "false alarm". And personally, I really couldn't give a damn about what Real Deal said about the HHH/Brock/Rock crap, so why even bring that up in the first place? Oh yeah, I'm some guy who's angry all the time and seeing everything through a red cloud of hate due to my username, eh? Oh, there's that "false alarm" thing again. Hey, if your going to insult my username, then don't PM me about it, just put it on board. It's not asking much, ya know? Okay, back on topic now: They fucked up the Brock reign when they gave it to BROCK "I COULD BEAT UP MOTHER THERESA AND THE FANS WOULDN'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT MY SLOW POLDDING OFFENSE" LESNAR! Dude, take a Valium or something. He already has the title and he was over until Taker and HHH(OMG!) made him their bitches, so now's the time to actually build him up as a strong champ and whining about him getting the belt isn't going to make it go away. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AlwaysPissedOff Report post Posted August 31, 2002 If they don't get a push, they never get the chance to showcase their potential. If RVD hadn't gotten the initial push and had been thrown aside like Dreamer, would he be where he is now? 5 months in RVD: Over, Good matches, Hardcore champion Brock: Not/mildly over, bad/awful matches, world champion. The similarities are amazing. RVD had like one good match in his first 5 months and that was against Jericho at Unforgiven. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted August 31, 2002 I think the point needs to be recognized that they could have pushed Rob and made a star out of him if they had kept up the push through Royal Rumble as he was over like a fucking God and probably could have drawn huge if given the chance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AllState Report post Posted August 31, 2002 In my opinion Rob Van Dam will one day be champion but it will be on a meaningless PPV like Vengeance. His reign will be underwhelming and will probably end at the hands of Brock of Triple H. Jericho is going to hang around in the midcard, only occasionaly challenging top guys just like Kane. Eventually he will probably have to reteam with Benoit and chase the tag titles again. Kurt Angle won't do much this year and will lose a lot of his following after failing to achieve his goal of a second gold medal. Edge will have one world title reign and fade into obscurity. Chris Benoit will come close a few more times but will never wear the gold. And finally Brock Lesnar is in the main event to stay. His matches and feuds will be focal points of the show from now on. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted August 31, 2002 If they don't get a push, they never get the chance to showcase their potential. If RVD hadn't gotten the initial push and had been thrown aside like Dreamer, would he be where he is now? 5 months in RVD: Over, Good matches, Hardcore champion Brock: Not/mildly over, bad/awful matches, world champion. The similarities are amazing. RVD had like one good match in his first 5 months and that was against Jericho at Unforgiven. RVD/Jeff Hardy/InVasion RVD/Jeff Hardy Summerslam (I hated the match, but no one else did.) RVD/Kurt Angle/Steve Austin No Mercy The Smackdown wins over Austin and Angle. RVD/Rock (The night after Unforgiven) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted August 31, 2002 Dude, take a Valium or something. He already has the title and he was over until Taker and HHH(OMG!) made him their bitches, so now's the time to actually build him up as a strong champ and whining about him getting the belt isn't going to make it go away. You can't seriously call suddenly getting heat for the first time one night (Summerslam) and it being gone by Raw someone killing his heat. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AlwaysPissedOff Report post Posted August 31, 2002 RVD/Jeff Hardy/InVasion RVD/Jeff Hardy Summerslam (I hated the match, but no one else did.) RVD/Kurt Angle/Steve Austin No Mercy The Smackdown wins over Austin and Angle. RVD/Rock (The night after Unforgiven) And all those matches sucked, so what's your point? You can't seriously call suddenly getting heat for the first time one night (Summerslam) and it being gone by Raw someone killing his heat. Ummm.... I never said anything about having his heat killed in one night, AS. He was over going into the Rock match and he was over on RAW coming out of it, despite what you what to believe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dames Edna Report post Posted August 31, 2002 How come Eddie is treated like a red headed step child since Benoit returned? Enough of having Eddie playing Benoit's second. Its fucking ridiculous. Eddie is more over, and has completely busted his ass since returning. The product, aside from Summerslam, has been booked so poorly lately its sickening. Why can't Benoit take a pin in a tag match instead of Guerrero? Why can't Benoit seem to aleast be booked on the same level as Guerrero? Eddie has been the wrestler of the year, no question. The only guy one could debate against him is Angle - who also gets booked to look like a tit. But Eddie deserves respect. Respect him, he owns your soul. Oh yea, Brock deserves what he is getting right now. He is a fucking monster, and has the skills to back it up. Anyone who critisizes him as a wrestler is ignorant. People may resent his push, but he will be the most over wrestler in the company within the year. All he has to do is turn on Heyman. And yes, he should hold the title for a very long time. Give it some meaning, while building up a guy who will lead your company into the next 15 years. PS. RVD doesn't deserve shit, Tommy Dreamer and Chris Benoit carried him to good matches - he isn't ready yet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted August 31, 2002 Guererro wrestler of the year? On what merrits? He's busted his ass a whole lot, true, but Benoit and Angle have done so as well. It isn't fair that he always be booked as Benoit's second, but Chris is simply the one they want to push right now. The resentment towards Lesnar comes with how quickly he was pushed to the top based simply on the fact that he's big. He bumps very well, but as a wrestler he lacks charisma and just kind of does his stuff. He's nothing great, he's just big, so Vince is pushing. That doesn't mean he won't get over, but the reasoning for elevating him is wrong to begin with. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest cabbageboy Report post Posted August 31, 2002 I agree with this. Austin was simply going to use Eddie to get out of his shitty match streak and then probably feud with Benoit, have some good matches, and ultimately go over him as well. As odd as it sounds I think they should be thankful neither program really happened. I actually think the main problem WWE has is that there isn't really much GOING ON. Take a look right now and there isn't really any sort of feud or big match that is going to draw (main event or undercard). I hear all the time that Angle should become a serious face and beat Lesnar for the title. Why? I'll admit that Angle is one of the best wrestlers around today, but I simply cannot take him seriously as either a face or heel. Something about him seems completely insincere, like he's winking at everyone or soemething. Compare his wise ass dork promos to Ron Killings for instance and you'll see what I mean. The Truth isn't half the wrestler Angle is, but damn in his promos he really speaks from deep down and means what he says. Angle has a major problem here and I'll tell you why: he simply cannot cut a serious promo. He's a clown, he makes me laugh, but I can't take him seriously as an unstoppable heel or face. Let's say Angle does learn to cut a serious promo....it still won't work because people have been amused by his goof character for so long that they'll want that back. Another major problem Angle has is that he currently has no credibility, since he has been booked like a tool. Last year he jobs clean to Austin in the Undisputed tourney, then HHH made him his bitch again. After that he ends up getting his head shaven by Edge, then jobs to the Rock in a title match, and then trades wins with Rey Misterio (!). I guess he did beat Hogan clean but hasn't damn near everybody at this point? Booker has much the same problem. There is nothing in the way he has been booked that suggests to me that he would be taken seriously in a main event. The guy has jobbed to everyone. RVD however, I can take seriously. He hasn't been made to look like an idiot, and while he says some amusing things in promos it's more akin to the Rock's cocky attitude than Angle's dorkiness. He's beaten guys like Austin, the Rock, Angle, Taker (though he's jobbed to him a lot), and has DQs over Brock. I dunno about Edge. I'm not convinced he can perform at a main event level against very many opponents. At some point he'll likely get a short title run but I doubt he'll be taken seriously. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted August 31, 2002 You can't seriously call suddenly getting heat for the first time one night (Summerslam) and it being gone by Raw someone killing his heat. Ummm.... I never said anything about having his heat killed in one night, AS. He was over going into the Rock match and he was over on RAW coming out of it, despite what you what to believe. Going into Summerslam, he was mildly IC level over (Very mildly) Unfortunately, he was getting thw world title. Summerslam was a once show deal, and now he's back to being sort of kind of over, no World champion over. Oh yea, Brock deserves what he is getting right now. He is a fucking monster, and has the skills to back it up. Anyone who critisizes him as a wrestler is ignorant. People may resent his push, but he will be the most over wrestler in the company within the year. All he has to do is turn on Heyman. And yes, he should hold the title for a very long time. Give it some meaning, while building up a guy who will lead your company into the next 15 years. But since entering the WWF, he has done NOTHING to earn a world title reign, leap frogging over six worthy contenders. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dames Edna Report post Posted August 31, 2002 For the past month or two, Lesnar has been as over as a heel as anyone. One can't honestly say Benoit deserves the nod over Guerrero for work this year. Guerrero, with the oppertunities given to him, has ALWAYS stepped up to the plate. He has gotten over all on his own. In his first few months back, you could hear crickets in the audience - now he is getting a far bigger rection. My point is that Guerrero has done a much better job with the situation given to him. Benoit might be looking a bit better but its only because the WWE has huge plans for him - which he does deserve. Guerrero's only downfall is his match with Ric Flair, but Jericho had an even worse match so that means something. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted August 31, 2002 For the past month or two, Lesnar has been as over as a heel as anyone. One can't honestly say Benoit deserves the nod over Guerrero for work this year. Guerrero, with the oppertunities given to him, has ALWAYS stepped up to the plate. He has gotten over all on his own. In his first few months back, you could hear crickets in the audience - now he is getting a far bigger rection. My point is that Guerrero has done a much better job with the situation given to him. Benoit might be looking a bit better but its only because the WWE has huge plans for him - which he does deserve. Guerrero's only downfall is his match with Ric Flair, but Jericho had an even worse match so that means something. A lot of Lesnar's heel heat has been dependent on Heyman, and even then, much of it was blatantly piped in. The most over I've ever seen Lesnar was at Summer Slam, and that was when he was getting face pops, not heel heat. Guererro has worked hard rather consistently, but not always. His match with Rick Flair was really dissapointing and while I can attribute a lot of that to Flair being a fossil, Austin had good matches with the guy, and that was when Steve was considered a lackluster worker who had stopped carring about his artform. Guererro should have been able to get more out of Flair then he did. Yes, Jericho had a worse match with Flair, but I've gotten used to being dissapointed by Jericho these days, so whatever. You know, this may be waaayyyy off base, and maybe I'm totally in the wrong, but it seems to me that ever since his rant on the internet after his match with RVD at KOTR, Jericho has looked very lazy and I think he might have figuered there's no point because he can't please us. Of course, I would be pleased with him if he would, you know, WORK in his matches, but whatever. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Brian Report post Posted August 31, 2002 Guerrero had one carry job of Super Crazy that's as good as anything the WWE has put out this year, and that's the low end of his indy work. Non-WWE wrestler, Guerrero is MVP. "You know, this may be waaayyyy off base, and maybe I'm totally in the wrong, but it seems to me that ever since his rant on the internet after his match with RVD at KOTR, Jericho has looked very lazy and I think he might have figuered there's no point because he can't please us. Of course, I would be pleased with him if he would, you know, WORK in his matches, but whatever." True. Jericho has been walking through his promos and his matches lately. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ShooterJay Report post Posted August 31, 2002 i think they need to concentrate on the sports/wrestling side of it. The athleticism. But can they properly do that? Have the cruiserweights wrestle like the NWA TNA X Division wrestlers, balls out spots and innovative, devastating moves. The WWE cruisers are more polished and experienced, and I wish Vince would truly let them cut loose. Push Van Dam, Angle, and even Lesnar, guys who can wrestle a more athletic style due to their backgrounds. If you want to keep HHH, Taker, and the other hosses relevant, the answer I think can be summed up in one word: Blood. Lots and lots of blood. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AndrewTS Report post Posted August 31, 2002 Dude, take a Valium or something. He already has the title and he was over until Taker and HHH(OMG!) made him their bitches, so now's the time to actually build him up as a strong champ and whining about him getting the belt isn't going to make it go away. You can't seriously call suddenly getting heat for the first time one night (Summerslam) and it being gone by Raw someone killing his heat. Nassau was somewhat of a freak incident. It seems more anti-Rock than pro-Lesnar, and even if it endured--it isn't FACE heat they were trying to get. It was gone by Raw, and didn't carry over to Smackdown either (I don't count the obvious heat machines). However, the new champ getting punked out the way he was on Raw shows that it's not really going to matter much in the grand scheme of things. The top guys are still being protected regardless. Jericho wasn't considered a main eventer even with the title, Show wasn't considered a main eventer even with the title, and Brock wasn't even allowed to main event Smackdown. That's at least 3 times that attempts were made at creating new main eventers, but they were half-assed. Angle managed to get over so much that he was doing alright for himself, but now he's back to the midcard. (And I don't like Show, but was using him for an example. Brock getting brushed aside, and twitching as Taker kicks him in the head repeatedly and gets dumped outside the ring before running to the back, then runs to Smackdown exclusively. I thought he was supposed to be a monster heel? APO: Fine, then. I'm sorry, but with the initial reaction, I got defense. S'alright now, then. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest AndrewTS Report post Posted August 31, 2002 Guerrero had one carry job of Super Crazy that's as good as anything the WWE has put out this year, and that's the low end of his indy work. Non-WWE wrestler, Guerrero is MVP. "You know, this may be waaayyyy off base, and maybe I'm totally in the wrong, but it seems to me that ever since his rant on the internet after his match with RVD at KOTR, Jericho has looked very lazy and I think he might have figuered there's no point because he can't please us. Of course, I would be pleased with him if he would, you know, WORK in his matches, but whatever." True. Jericho has been walking through his promos and his matches lately. Seems more frustration than anything else. You know...the fact that he's looked at as a joke and will probably never crack the main event again? The fact he's stuck at the level he is right now with no recourse? His matches pretty much all suck now, his promos are nonsensical and stupid, and he's stuck in dead-end fueds now. Supposedly the Cena one was his idea, but don't know about the Flair one. I don't understand what the point was of the fued with Flair, particularly since it was...what...the 2nd worst match at Summerslam, right after Taker/Test? I guess he doesn't give a shit anymore, and now neither do most of us or the rest of the fans. Collect your paycheck and shut the fuck up--OR speak up about the bullshit. Really, how could Jericho POSSIBLY be buried much more at this point? He's got nothing to lose. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dames Edna Report post Posted August 31, 2002 Would you work hard if you were getting pantsed for the booker's amusement? Jericho should/could be their number 1 heel, but isn't getting the opportunity. His switch to RAW should have changed everything, but it has almost made everything worse. He is the most entertaining part of RAW, and is made to look like shit. What a pity - what a waist. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted September 1, 2002 Would you work hard if you were getting pantsed for the booker's amusement? It can't help that he as watched some boring, unover rookie leap frog over him. Why should he even bother if it doesn't matter to Vince, because he's not big like Brock (The only reason I can think of as to why Brock is champion: He's big) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JasonX 0 Report post Posted September 1, 2002 "Tradition" is the new "Attitude". Think of it, "Attitude" was something radical that came along at a time when the state of wrestling was at flux. "Attitude" was taboo at the time; just like "Tradition" was in the Attitude Era and is now... So the question is; who will be the steve austin and dx of this era? Wasn't "Tradition" WCW's counter to the whole "Attitude" campaign put on by WWF? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Edwin MacPhisto Report post Posted September 1, 2002 Would you work hard if you were getting pantsed for the booker's amusement? It can't help that he as watched some boring, unover rookie leap frog over him. Why should he even bother if it doesn't matter to Vince, because he's not big like Brock Because he's getting hundreds of thousands of dollars a year? I know the world champ gets a bonus or whatever, but a lot of people seem to forget that these guys are making ridiculous paydays for what they do. If you half-ass any job where someone's giving you that much money, you need to prioritize. Sure, it'd suck to not be the world champ when you know you can do it, but I imagine the high-quality cash-flow keeps Jericho from going to bed in tears. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
