Greatest Wrestlers Of All Time

[Guest XdojimeX]

"I don't mean to be too critical, but these kinds of things usually require a great deal of thought, and it doesn't seem like ther proper amount was given to this effort.

 

Basically, I don't like this list much."

 

That's because it wasn't very well thought out to begin with. Keep in mind there was like 50 different people on the DVDVR board giving ballots without having a defined criteria to go by. You had people judging purely on work, others factoring influence and drawing power and others just plain copping to their favorite performers and throwing everything else out of the window. It was all over the place and the lack of consistency shows. So I wouldn't get that bent out of shape over it, the main intent seemed be focused on garnering discussion on the workers themselves rather then putting together a competent list.

 

Kinda like the DVD 500 .

 

"Now, he spent pretty much the entire 1990's as "everyone favorite fast-forward wrestler."

 

Because he was a lazy selfish worker way past his prime.

 

Hell even in his prime for all the good he brought Choshyu could be incredibly selfish and lazy at times.

 

But yeah, it's a shame the perception on Choshyu by a lot of foreign puroresu fans is based on the last 10 years or so. It took me awhile to come around on the guy's strong points. His impact as a booker and worker is sorely underated though.

[Guest XdojimeX]

"2.HBK vs. Undertaker-HIAC I-97 Badd Blood ****3/4

4.HBK vs. Diesel-INY: Good friends, better enemies. ****3/4

7.HBK vs. Undertaker, Ground Zero 1997, ****1/2

9.HBK vs. Sid, 96 Survivor Series, ****3/4"

 

 

If I see another +3 1/2 rating for Michaels' bumping masturbation hour vs. the Holy Slug Trinity it'll be one too many.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Hey, I never said that Michaels was the best by any means. My previous post states that clearly, just that he was better than Undertaueker.

[Guest godthedog]

So you want the list, eh? OK

 

5 ***** matches with Steamer, and yes I'm including their '94 matchup, because that brought a tear to my eye as I watched that. The fabled 5th ***** was a match that the two did in Japan back in 1982.

 

Number 6 is the I quit match with Terry Funk.

 

Number 7 is his Worldwide Special with Barry Windham

 

8 and 9 were Wargames I and II...

 

He had a ***** match with Race back in 80.

 

OK. Fine 10 matches, but it's STILL 10 ***** matches...only Misawa comes close.

you left out the IRON MAN MATCH, mang. that's actually the only match from flair i'd consider *****, but my standards are kind of weird. i've never seen a misawa match i'd give ***** to.

 

"2.HBK vs. Undertaker-HIAC I-97 Badd Blood ****3/4

4.HBK vs. Diesel-INY: Good friends, better enemies. ****3/4

7.HBK vs. Undertaker, Ground Zero 1997, ****1/2

9.HBK vs. Sid, 96 Survivor Series, ****3/4"

 

If I see another +3 1/2 rating for Michaels' bumping masturbation hour vs. the Holy Slug Trinity it'll be one too many.

hbk/undertaker, hell in a cell: ****1/2

hbk/diesel, no holds barred: ****1/2

hbk/undertaker, ground zero: ***1/2

hbk/sid, survivor series: ****

 

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

[EL DANDY~! 0]

OK...so you've never seen a match from Misawa that was *****?

 

Off the top of my head...let's say...6/3/94...10/15/95...his 1990 match with Jumbo...wow, man...You really want me to go on?

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

I don't like the list, but for a poll it was pretty decent. You have to take into account people voting for their personal favs., voting for wrestlers based on their reputation while never actually seeing their work, people not seeing every wrestler and not voting for them at all, and all that stuff.

 

El Dandy: Sure it boils down to opinion, but saying that Flair has had more ***** matches than Misawa is a bit inaccurate even if you go buy popular critic opinion. That's not even counting all his ***** tag matches. Not to mention Jumbo's incredable 20+ year run of great matches. The only reason why alot of his matches don't get ***** is because is it's fucking Jumbo and his best is that much better so he's rated on a tougher scale. Most of Jumbo's ****1/2 matches are better than most of Flair's so called ***** matches.

 

And to the guy who said the list was made by Puro marks: No Puro mark in thier right fucking mind would ever vote Flair over Jumbo and Kawada. And Keji Mutoh wouldn't even be on the damn list.

[Guest godthedog]

OK...so you've never seen a match from Misawa that was *****?

 

Off the top of my head...let's say...6/3/94...10/15/95...his 1990 match with Jumbo...wow, man...You really want me to go on?

i told you, my standards are weird. i've seen 6/3/94, the 95 tag match, the 93 tag match, & every all-japan match misawa's had with kobashi, i just didn't enjoy them quite enough to give them *****. i won't dispute the fact that he's had a lot of great matches, but different people have different standards of a ***** match. hell, i don't even think wrestlewar was ***** because i thought steamboat hurting his leg was a bit contrived & the ending seemed kind of illogical.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

OK. I'm not gonna flame. That's just mean if I do.

 

Gimme the matches that YOU have seen...that are *****.

[Guest godthedog]

bret/flair iron man match

hansen/kobashi

bret/owen cage match

 

those are really the only constants. some days i'll add bret/austin from wrestlemania.

 

i don't claim to have any objective system, it's based purely on my enjoyment of the match. i know almost everybody says 6/3/94 was the greatest match ever, but i've only seen it by itself without any of the backstory that went into it, so i didn't enjoy it as much as everyone else did.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

Now I've seen those matches except for the Bret/Flair iron man match. I agree with you on those fronts. Kobashi/Hansen was absolutely awesome. Owen/Bret in the cage was BETTER than their WM 10 match, IMO.

 

It's just that...that rivalry between Misawa and Kawada...just so great. Can't even say how good it was...and that set off the greatest string of OH MY GOD ***** matches in history.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

The Owen/Bret cage match was fun but certainly not *****. They filled up their time well but there was no blood and the escape rules may be the dumbest stipulation in all of wrestling.

 

As for the Misawa debate, its not even a question to those of us who watch the matches.

 

Tim

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Austin got jobbed

[Guest godthedog]

Austin got jobbed

well, it's about time austin jobbed to SOMEBODY.

[Guest TheHulkster]

I put in a ballot for this list, and I have to say I was probably a little bit partial to my favorites. I put Funk at #1 (I think he should've be in the top 5 on most of the ballots at least. He's had an amazing career and a lot of really great matches spanning 30+ years) , Kobashi was in the top 5 (I honestly think he was the best All Japan heavyweight in the 90's, so sue me), and Brody made it in my top 15 (speaking of which, Brody was a damn good worker in his day. Brody Vs Terry Funk (take your pick), Brody/Hansen Vs The Funks, Brody/Hansen Vs Dory & Baba, Brody/Snuka Vs The Funks, Brody/Hansen Vs Tsuruta/Tenryu i'd peg at ****+. People don't call him the greatest brawler of all time for nothing). I think Liger deserves at least #3. Liger has had an amazing body of work these past several decades and still continues to amaze.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Hey, I never said that Michaels was the best by any means. My previous post states that clearly, just that he was better than Undertaueker.

And I never said Taue was the best, either. He just had several matches that were better than anything Michaels has had in his entire career. Triple H had a good run? Taue had matches better than anything he ever did, too. That logic makes no sense, because throwing out "had a pretty good run" and expecting people to take it on face value is a) vague and B) makes no sense. How many matched did Hunter have that could be considered best men's tag match of all time? Or a contender for best men's singles match of all time? If you don't know the answers to these questions, stop using cemantics to argue your points and say something that of merrit.

 

He performed well in two of the best tag matches of the '90's and it obviously wasn't because of the others walking him through it. He performed well in one of the best singles matches of the '90's and it obviously wasn't a carry job there, either. He was a great wrestler for a long time and showed more consistancy than Kobashi did at the time. He had matches better than anything Michaels could ever have. Therefore, he should have been on the list.

 

And yes, it's pretty clear that this list wasn't created to be the be-all end-all list of workers, but merely a conversational tool to get people talking. It seems to be working out pretty well, so hey, more power to them, I guess.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

The mid-90's AJPW tag matches I've seen with Taue are fuckin' awesome, and I think he plays his role in tag matches well, but I can't fuckin' stand his singles matches, I'm the exact opposite with Michaels. His tag stuff was for the most part bland heel/face formula tag stuff, not to say some of it wasn't good, but it doesn't even hold a candle to the AJPW tags mentioned.

Singles wise, well, I stated my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

 

Of course HHH hasn't been in a tag match that could be considered the best tag match ever, all I'm saying is he had a run of matches for a year that were very very good, if you're looking for examples, (which I'm sure you'll disagree with) here you are,

 

HHH vs. Austin from No Way Out 2001 2/3 falls

HHH vs. Benoit, No Mercy 2000

HHH vs Cactus Jack, HIAC No way Out 2000

HHH vs. Cactus Jack, street fight from Rumble 2000

 

anything TOO remarkable, no, but very good stuff, IMO.

 

The point I was trying to make was this: Taue gets most of his recognition for his 95-96 run. I've NEVER heard any of his stuff outside of that timeframe talked about at length, and since I can't stand his "good" years, I've never bothered to look, so sue me. To cut to the chase, One great year doesn't mean someone is a great wrestler.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

Here's the bad thing about these "top ten lists". Nobody is EVER going to see eye to eye. Grading Puro and US workers now is almost too strange, because it's largely different stuff. Still wrestling..but..there's enough differences that should make it impossible to make one coherent list. *cough* It does suprise me that Benoit didn't make it in the top five, if not top of the list. The IWC suprised me for one? Holy shit.

 

On Flair: Wouldn't this "last run" of his in the WWe be kicking him down a spot or two? I mean..the guy may have been great in the past..but now his offense is chops and low blows. That's being generous.

[Guest XdojimeX]

"Here's the bad thing about these "top ten lists". Nobody is EVER going to see eye to eye."

 

Some lists will be better then others based on a lot of different factors. But I don't think when fans of any sort put together a list for discussion it's with the sole intent of everyone having the same exact opinion or bust.

 

"Grading Puro and US workers now is almost too strange, because it's largely different stuff. Still wrestling..but..there's enough differences that should make it impossible to make one coherent list."

 

Nah there's always been different genres in a lot of different mediums that didn't stop people from comparing and contrasting things. In the end they're all bumping on canvas in front of paying fans one way or another.

 

"It does suprise me that Benoit didn't make it in the top five, if not top of the list. The IWC suprised me for one? Holy shit."

 

Am I the only one that gets a kick out of wrestling fans on the internet dogging other wrestling fans on the internet...all the while speaking of the monolith that is the "IWC" in the third person? Funny that.

 

"On Flair: Wouldn't this "last run" of his in the WWe be kicking him down a spot or two? I mean..the guy may have been great in the past..but now his offense is chops and low blows. That's being generous."

 

Not really. It's pretty much par for the course when a great wrestler sticks around many a year past their welcome and "tarnishes the legacy". Nature of the beast I guess. Is Ali ever considered less of a legend because he hung on too long? Of course not.

[Guest dreamer420]

"On Flair: Wouldn't this "last run" of his in the WWe be kicking him down a spot or two? I mean..the guy may have been great in the past..but now his offense is chops and low blows. That's being generous."

While Flair is obviously not the wrestling god he once was, I still get a kick out of watching him wrestle. I find him more entertaining than 90% of the wrestlers on the WWE roster right now.

[Guest goodhelmet]

i might have missed it but where the FUCK was ricky fucking steamboat?@!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? they have ted dibiase higher than steamboat?????? WTF!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[Guest RickyChosyu]

The entire point on this kind of thing is discussion, and discusion is rarely interesting unless based around a dissagreement. Of course a perfect list can never be made, but that's the last thing something of this nature intends to do.

 

AoO: What of his singles matches with Misawa, then? He did great work Kawada, too. It's not as if he couldn't have good ones on his own. I mean, he surpased Kobashi for a great length of time, and Kobashi is ranked pretty damn high on this list. He should be on there.

 

As for HHH's year, while it was pretty good with some really good matches, that body of work is a drop in the bucket compared to what Taue did. Oh, and I REEAALLY don't like the 2/3 Falls match. Cure for insomnia, at best. Nope, didn't like it at all.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"Cure for insomnia"

 

AGREED. That match blows. HIAC sucked as well....watching it live was emotional but it doesn't hold up. In fact. the only match that I think was actually a MOTYC or even really good was the RR v Foley. And I think we know who made that match.

 

Tim, who doesn't even want to discuss the travestry that was Benoit v HHH from No Mercy.

[Guest dreamer420]

HIAC sucked as well....watching it live was emotional but it doesn't hold up.

I disagree with that. The Hell in a Cell match between Taker and Foley is listed at ***** in my books. The reason it is ***** is because there hasn't been a match when two guys (mostly Foley) layed everything, including their lives on the life just to please the fans.

 

While a lot of people see that match as trainwreck I see it as a classic bout between two of the toughest wrestlers to enter the ring.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"The Hell in a Cell match between Taker and Foley is listed at ***** in my books."

 

What is your rational for ***** stars? Is it from just viewing North American stuff?

 

"The reason it is ***** is because there hasn't been a match when two guys (mostly Foley) layed everything, including their lives on the life just to please the fans."

 

Um, every Misawa v Kawada match, every Takada v Yamazaki match, not to mention the billions of death matches in Japan put their bodies on the line. And god knows that the 25th version of Pogo v Onita is not *****.

 

"While a lot of people see that match as trainwreck I see it as a classic bout between two of the toughest wrestlers to enter the ring."

 

Ken Shamrock is tough. And so is Dan Severn. If they had a match in TNA, I wouldn't call it a classic because it involves two legit tough guys.

 

Your rational is all out of whack.

 

Tim

[Guest Midnight Express83]

HHH had 17 GOOD MONTHS IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER~!! 17 months out of a 8 year career is sad. Because he needed the mother of all overpushes ever to get over. And that lasted but his hot streak didn't. Reason people think HHH of 2000 was so good because everything else he did was total crap.

 

As for anything DVDVR does, they are polls, not list. So as polls, they are pretty well.

 

As for Flair's ***** matches lets see...

2 Japan ***** matches with Steamboat.

Wrestle War 89

Chi Town Rumble

Starrcade 93(I am bumping this up because it saved the company....until Russo came)

3/18/89

Vs Windham on Worldwide 87

vs Bret(title stwich)

vs Bret(IRON MAN MATCH)

Wargames 87

vs Funk(I quit)

vs Funk(GAB 89)

Wargames91

w/ Arn vs Hollywood Blondes

Rumble 92

vs Steamboat(78 for US title)

[Guest dreamer420]

Sorry dude, but if you are measuring every match you see against a couple of matches you think are ***** from japan then you are out of whack.

 

Clearly you and I watch and grade wrestling differently. I watch a match and then rate it based on the performance of the wrestlers, how well they worked together, the effort given, and the story told. You should try it sometime.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

Midnight Express is GOD! You rule, and you got 16 of em. I would however only give the Vader match ****3/4, since they messed up the ending. So STILL. godthedog, that's 15. Thank you. I was right. i completely missed his two matches with Bret. Oh, and Royal Rumble...ducking fumb. I'm really stupid.

 

Oh, and Steamer was Number 12. So stop crying now, goodhelmet.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"Sorry dude, but if you are measuring every match you see against a couple of matches you think are ***** from japan then you are out of whack."

 

Right.

 

"Clearly you and I watch and grade wrestling differently."

 

Nod.

 

"I watch a match and then rate it based on the performance of the wrestlers, how well they worked together, the effort given, and the story told. You should try it sometime."

 

Nod.

 

DOesn't seem to be much difference there.

 

Tim

[Guest dreamer420]

"Sorry dude, but if you are measuring every match you see against a couple of matches you think are ***** from japan then you are out of whack."

 

Right.

 

"Clearly you and I watch and grade wrestling differently."

 

Nod.

 

"I watch a match and then rate it based on the performance of the wrestlers, how well they worked together, the effort given, and the story told. You should try it sometime."

 

Nod.

 

DOesn't seem to be much difference there.

 

Tim

Good, I'm glad you see it my way now.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Dreamer, there have been some stupid things said in this forrum, but I see no way you can even think of saying what you did, save flame bate.

 

Performance? He took to ridiculous bumps and then spent the rest of the match trying to stay concious. That's not wrestling, that's masochism. There is no entertainment there, unless you, yourself, enjoy seeing other's pain. If you like rating matches based on how close both guys come to dying, that's fine and good, but don't critisizing other's who, you know, actually rate the match objectively. As Tim said, there are millions of death matches in the history of wrestling where guys have come much closer to dying, and those aren't good, either. Brutality is a plot device. It doesn't make a break a match. Just like anything, brutality used well results in good matches, but used poorly, and it's just wonton violence. By itself, it's not worth anything, and neither is HIAC II. I don't see a point in arguing it further.

 

Next, do people even know what five stars is anymore? No offense, but I would be hard-pressed to find a tabloid more fabricated than these "lists" of all the five-star matches Flair has had. Is discussing wrestling so dificult, because it seems like most people would rather attempt to drown me in snow flakes.

 

Explanations? Anyone?

 

Wargames I was good, but a ten-man brawl with four bad workers, two non-wrestlers, and little structure, is still not a five-star match, because I can name plenty that were better, and the whole point of five stars is that it's the HIGHEST rating, or has everyone forgotton that? If Flair/Vader is five stars, what is Flair/Steamboat? Six stars? What about the other eleventy-billion matches that were better? Are those, too, *****+ matches, because they're definitely better than that match was.

 

I could go on and on about Flair/Windham, Flair/Funk, and Flair/Vader (yuck) but I think I can just sum it up with "I've seen better" and get the same point across.