Greatest Wrestlers Of All Time

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

..ever consider that maybe he just dosen't like it? Some people don't want to have to learn a whole boatload of stuff just to watch and "entirely appreciate" a match. Some people never like a particular style of stuff, from the first viewing. It happens.

 

While it could be said "Wait until you've seen enough of it"..these arguments tend to come out really elitest.

It's not elitism to point someone made inaccurate negative remarks about a style that I love, when he has only seen 10 minutes of one match. The one thing I like most about All Japan is that unlike the Juniors, they don't stall. Hell it's obvious this guy didn't even see 6/3/94 since that match started off with both guys trading blows, followed by a cool Irishwhip reversal sequence.

 

And backstory is important, because you would know that every single move serves a purpose and is a markmout moment in that match. Even Kawada using the armbar on Misawa, is a throwback to Misawa's real shoulder injury.

 

 

You don't have to like it or respect it. But if you say something unfairly inaccurate about it as a FACT, I will point out that I disagree. And I don't think 10 minutes of one match is enough to state facts about an entire style.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

..ever consider that maybe he just dosen't like it? Some people don't want to have to learn a whole boatload of stuff just to watch and "entirely appreciate" a match. Some people never like a particular style of stuff, from the first viewing. It happens.

 

While it could be said "Wait until you've seen enough of it"..these arguments tend to come out really elitest.

It doesn't sound like you've read this thread, because as Coffin Surfer said, it wouldn't take but five minutes to figuer out the basic history and character motivations behind the match. It's five minute of reading, not a term paper.

 

If someone wanted to watch American wrestling for the first time and actually enjoy it, the same thing would be needed, because it has it's own morals and principles that drive the wrestlers to behave the way they do within the confines of a match. It's just like anything: you have to understand the fundimental aspects of it before you can really comprehend what it's all about, and when someone is totally unwilling to do that, it says more about how serious their intentions are than anything.

 

Ok, so wanting him to hold off on bashing the entire All Japan style, - a company with thirty years of history and matches - after seeing one match is elitist. Wow, that's both vain and ill-founded.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

I agree with Coffin. I've only seen a few AJPW matches, and I'm not calling myself a puro purist at all. I love both style, but both styles have their weaknesses. It's not like one is vastly superior to the other.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

"but both styles have their weaknesses"

 

What are AJPW's weaknesses?

 

From 1997 on, it was the head dropping. That is all I can think of.

 

Unless detailed selling and deep storytelling are flaws.

 

Tim

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

You see what's sad is what people find "boring" used to be seen as an art form of wrestling. Am I one of the few that really loves a good wrestling clinic match of moves, holds, counter holds, and basic wearing down tactics? It makes it feel as if the wrestler truly wants to just rip and tear his opponent's body until he just can't take it anymore. It's a cold, calculating, dismantling of your opponent instead of coming out there and just trying to punch your opponent down. I too like the faster paced style, but I appreciate a good wrestling clinic and I almost find myself more into it.

[Guest Midnight Express83]

let me try to clear everything up. I like the old school style. But each time I try to jump into AJPW, i find it boring. Wrestling as an art is good, and I can say it is. But if something is boring, its fucking boring. I can admit when something is great. The match seemed flawless but, I found it boring. I seen alot of AJPW heavyweight matches over the years and I find it rather boring, but I am not going to bash it as crap. It wasn't crap. It wasn't bossman/Henry boring. It was, I rather watch a faster style boring.

[EL DANDY~! 0]

I can tell you one glaring weakness

 

You remember way back in late-80s-early-90s AJPW when a simple neckbreaker or something like a lariat would end some matches? But then some neck-breaking move would end others? It made some finishers look really stupid, while others looked like career killers.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

I love the AJPW style, but it has flaws. Sometimes the selling is a little crazy. I mean if Misawa gets his arm worked over for a decent amount of time, he shouldn't win with an elbow, right? Also the fact that they kill each other for 30 mins with all kinds of head drops, and then the match ends with a lariat or elbow. Misawa's elbow is a good example, as he may use it 50 times in a match, then one time he gets the win.

 

It reminds me of a comment Cornette said about ECW. He said something like "They kill each other with chairs and kick out, then the finish is an inside cradle". For AJPW it could be said that they kill each other with head drops and then win with an elbow.

 

It was just overkill sometimes. Those flaws however don't make the match boring. Boring would be if they just lay on the mat, or brawled all the time with garbage cans or somthin, most big AJPW matches had great effort, and were nearly always interesting one way or another.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

The head-dropping stuff really didn't get out of hand until '97, I think. The psychology of the elbows ending the match was that they were Misawa's big strike, so that he could throw lots of fast jabs with them to transition between moves early on, but if he hit a really big one it could end a match easilly. Same with Kawada's kicks, and such.

 

The thing about All Japan is that it treated every guy's finish as his specialty. Other guys used the lariat besides Hansen, but when he hit it, the match was usually over, because he could hit it like no one else. Plenty of guys hit power bombs besides Kawada, too, but again, it was his specialty, so it was more likely to end a match than others.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

However..

 

In my eyes, it's nice to have something except "guy hits big finisher, it's over".

[Guest RickyChosyu]

That's why lots of guy's had multiple finishers. With Misawa, he not only had the elbow and the Tiger Driver, but the Tiger Driver '91 and the Emerald Flosion/Frosion in desperate cases. Mostly everyone had multiple ways to finish a match.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

I love the AJPW style, but it has flaws. Sometimes the selling is a little crazy. I mean if Misawa gets his arm worked over for a decent amount of time, he shouldn't win with an elbow, right? Also the fact that they kill each other for 30 mins with all kinds of head drops, and then the match ends with a lariat or elbow. Misawa's elbow is a good example, as he may use it 50 times in a match, then one time he gets the win.

 

.

Kobashi/Misawa 97, that's where the style changed and started to go down hill. Lots of no selling, pointless headdrops, odd use of strikes, and lots and lots of fucking resting. I prefer the more quicker, simpler, brilliantly paced and smartly worked matches of the early 90s like Kawada/Jumbo 10/24/91(which I think blows away the Flair/Steamboat matches in every category).

 

Though, I think alot of people would be in for a big surprise if they were to see the two Kawada/Kobashi matches in 93, where they glide from spot to spot like juniors with damn near flawless pacing and almost zero head dropping. I know I was surprised.

[Guest Special K]

I'm no expert, but from what I've seen, the stuff that seems a bit odd in AJPW (i.e. occasional no-selling) happened rarely and with purpose in the glory days, then got a bit out of hand.

 

The thing that has made me appreciate AJPW is it's all about the context in AJPW. Though there are plenty of wonderful NA matches, (Hart Hart WMX is the 1st great match i've seen, and hence is near and dear to my heart) generally, a move is a move is a move. I'll take the Taue/Misawa carny finals as my example, since I recentlyy rewatched it. Taue clawing Misawa's broken face early on was pure spitefulness and general dickery. Him clawing his face later showed desperation, as Misawa was at that point nearly unstoppable, and furious about the attacks to his face. Misawa cringes but 'no-sells- it because he knows victory is within reach. While knowing the history between combatants can increase AJPW viewing pleasure, if you do have the patience to look for subtleties (and I know that sometimes I'm more in the mood for a spotfest than a 60:00 draw) It can have all sorts of little moments when you say "man that's cool" over something as simple as a face claw.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Am I the only one who likes the head drops? A lot...I dig the older AJPW style, too. But I can DEFINITELY watch Akiyama and Kobashi drop each other on their dome for 15 minutes.

[Guest Midnight Express83]

the only problem with that style is that if you don't drop them carefully on the top of their head, they will break their necks.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

The problem is that there's no substance to it. Spot, rest, spot, rest. They hit every head-drop in the book until the biggest one wins, and when the next match happens it takes three more of the same move to get the job done. It's complete overkill, and when it gets out of control, you get some of the later Misawa/Kobashi matches, like the ones in 2000 where the low point of the match is a half-nelson suplex on the floor. No substance = bad match.