RVD vs HHH at Unforgiven

[Guest Y2DAYDAY]

Every "smart" mark on this board is bitching about how HHH will beat RVD at the PPV. Honestly, if they consider any other finish, they are insane. HHH has to win. THe perfect finish has RVD getting many near falls(and a win while the ref is out) and then have HHH squeak out the win. THat is booking 101. If RVD wins, the feud is over because RVD has beat him twice. Then you have your top heel being a guy who jobbed to Hogan, jobbed to Undertaker, jobbed to a cripple, and jobbed to RVD twice. Your top heel is no longer worth anything(and that is the last thing they need with Chris Jericho as the #2 heel on RAW).

 

The right finish is the one above, maybe even throw in a rematch with HHH winning again the same way and then finally have the blowoff with RVD going over.

 

IF RVD wins, he will be a failure because no credible top heels will be left for him to face. If he beats HHH, HHH is no longer a contender because RVD beat him twice. Which leaves Jericho, and that would tank the RAW ratings because no one takes Jericho seriously.

 

Which would leave RVD to work a world title program with Big Show since every other top guy is a face.

 

HHH has to win. There is no other choice.

 

But mostly everyone here will bitch when he does, though it is the correct booking decision, just because they are HHH Haters and not because they may actually know what they are talking about.

 

So, here is the question. If RVD wins, what does it accomplish? Sure, he would be elevated(temporarily) by beating HHH but if he has a lousy title reign, that elevation is gone. So who would you guys program RVD with if he wins the belt(which you don't have to worry about but lets hear it)

 

Booker is a Face

Flair is as well

HBK is also

Ditto for Kane

HHH program is over because RVD would have beat him decisively twice(and if there was a third match, HHH would have to go over even worse)

Jericho is a joke and not a threat to anybody.

 

Big Show?

 

And when they move Kurt Angle to RAW, it will be as a face so there goes that one.

 

Lets hear it.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

"HHH has to win"

 

This line never makes sense no matter how many different ways it is used.

 

If anything...

 

HHH has to lose most of the time...so that it can at least appear someone else on the roster has a legitimite claim as a top guy.

 

RVD now joins Kane as the only uppercard people to hold unavenged wins over HHH.

 

RVD will give it back at the ppv...

 

Kane will be next.

 

And what then?

 

What will HHH do when he has finally conquered the entire federation?

[Guest cabbageboy]

I actually agree with this, in fact I had the idea that Michaels will eventually help RVD out and stuff, train him for a rematch with HHH.

 

To tie it all together I figure Shawn costs HHH the title at the end of this, setting them up for a rematch down the road.

[Guest The Man in Blak]

Of course, Jericho and the Rock feuded well over four matches, with Jericho essentially having the Rock's number each time around.

 

That's not bad booking.

That's putting Jericho over.

[Guest Y2DAYDAY]

Jericho and Rock is different because that is the heel beating the face, which leads to the babyface eventually getting his win and ending the feud. If RVD beats HHH a million times, the only guy Rob could draw money with on RAW in a world title feud is seen as a guy that cannot beat RVD. Makes no sense.

 

No one has come up with a reason why RVD should win... and who would he work as the babyface world champ.

 

Makes me seem right.

Come on guys, prove me wrong(that Catchphrase didn't last)

[Guest Y2DAYDAY]

Also, if they book it like I suggested, which they will, you have RVD, Kane, and Booker as potential challengers to HHH's world title. If I had to guess, I agree with the poster who agreed with me, when he said that RVD will eventually beat HHH and then HHH will feud with HBK leading to the rematch.

[Guest RazorxEDGE]

HHH has nothing left to accomplish. NOTHING.

 

He's been WWE champion like 5x or 6x.

 

He's been the Intercontinental champ 3x, a tag team champion, and the European champion 2x (?).

 

He's headlined 2 WrestleManias. He's also headlined SummerSlam, the Survivor Series, the Royal Rumble, AND the King of the Ring.

 

He's won the King of the Ring. He's won the Royal Rumble.

 

He's been in -- and WON -- Hell in the Cell, street fights at Madison Square Garden, last man standing matches, iron man matches, chain matches, ladder matches...you name, he's been in it.

 

He's defeated Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock, The Undertaker, Kurt Angle, Mick Foley, Kane, Test (HA!)...pretty much every big name in the biz except for Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels. And even Stone Cold Steve Austin never beat Bret Hart.

 

He's been in DX and he was courted by the nWo.

 

He's had countless ****+ and ***** matches on pay-per-view.

 

He's even gotten to fuck Stephanie McMahon-Helmsley AND Chyna.

 

And let's not forget his 1997 Slammy Award for Best Hair.

 

WHAT MORE CAN HE DO?!!

 

Rob Van Dam, on the other hand, has a TON left to accomplish.

[Guest Y2DAYDAY]

Okay, what can RVD do as the face champ? There is no one in the company for him to work with, except HHH, which eventually leads to HHH winning anyways.

[Guest Big McLargeHuge]

RVD shouldn't be fueding with HHH anyway. At least not at this point. I want him elevated, but it's just gonna be a series of jobs to HHH and a fluke win that supposedly ends the fued. No thanks. He was fine with Benoit, IMO.

[Guest Y2DAYDAY]

At the beginning of a feud, especially if they are planning a long term program, the heel has to win. Here are a few examples of guys who did a bunch of jobs in a feud and at the end of the feud were still over/more over.

 

Manking beat Undertaker a bunch of times before Taker beat him.

 

Steve Austin never did beat Bret Hart.

 

Dusty did countless jobs to Flair and was still over. He got very few wins but that was the way it had to be. And yes, they drew a shitload of money, which is what any feud is about.

 

And what about Raven vs Dreamer?

 

Or even Misawa vs Kobashi?

 

I am just saying if RVD beats HHH, it will become Hogan vs Flair from 94 where they kept on having FLair challenge Hogan but no one took him seriously because Hogan always beat him.

[Guest jester]

No one has come up with a reason why RVD should win... and who would he work as the babyface world champ.

Ok, here's a reason--the crowd likes him, and reacts to him. They react to him far more than HHH, who has had enough spotlight.

 

As for opponents, they can give him a rebuilt Jericho, one or more of the Unamericans...maybe even a psycho Steven Richards.

 

My only objection to RVD winning is that he would be pursuing a meaningless belt. I do not like this belt split in the least.

[Guest candie45]

I actually agree with this, in fact I had the idea that Michaels will eventually help RVD out and stuff, train him for a rematch with HHH.  

 

To tie it all together I figure Shawn costs HHH the title at the end of this, setting them up for a rematch down the road.

Maybe we could get an RVD workout video~!

 

Video starts off by showing Shawn and RVD joining hands and praying for a safe work out.

 

Cut to RVD explaining how the splits are so much better on the chairs because he can go deeper and really get the full stretch.

 

Anyway, if they continue and make this a full fledged fued, then I wouldn't be as bugged by an HHH win at Unforgiven if RVD got it back at what, Survivor Series? Whatever PPV is after...

 

But, that won't happen of course. And we all know that RVD won't come out of the fued looking good.

[Guest chirs3]

I hate to agree, but I do.

 

Triple H needs to eek out a win at Unforgiven, CHEAT TO WIN~! or something, to set up the big blowoff match at the next PPV. And THAT'S the one RVD should win.

 

But knowing the WWE, Triple H will win RVD's IC Title to become a double champ at Unforgiven, then two PPV's later squash him in a HIAC match... just because...

[EL DANDY~! 0]

"Your top heel is no longer worth anything(and that is the last thing they need with Chris Jericho as the #2 heel on RAW)."

 

Were you watching, tonight? HHH is worth nothing as of...right now! The pop he got from the Flair match was only because he was mocking him for cheap heat. When your World Champ has to use cheap heat...I think he's in trouble.

[Guest Kingpk]

Okay, what can RVD do as the face champ? There is no one in the company for him to work with, except HHH, which eventually leads to HHH winning anyways.

No one in the company?

 

Have you been WATCHING the past 6 months?

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

What confuses me most is how he beleives that faces win blowoffs.

 

Here's some examples:

 

HHH vs. Austin

HHH vs. Rock

HHH vs. Jericho (round 1)

 

Heels one all of those.

 

Some of the guys bever even got a win over him (AUSTIN) during the feud.

 

What do they all have in common?

 

And I left Foley off because that was a special case.

[Guest Y2DAYDAY]

Yeah, I know. HHH never returns the job(at least not clean). BUt what else did all of those feuds have in common. They all drew good to great money. HHH vs ROCK was huge money for WWE in 2000. AUstin vs HHH did more buys than Austin vs Vince a year earlier. And Fully Loaded 2000 was a much bigger success than expected, mostly due to the strength of the 2 top matches and how they were built up(ROCK vs Benoit was built up bad because ROCK beat his ass the week before the PPV) but HHH vs Jericho was a success because the phantom title win was fresh in everyone's minds and lead people to believe Jericho could beat HHH again.

 

Which obviously never happened.

 

I still see HHH beating RVD and then RVD beats HHH when HBK gets his heat back on HHH, ala ROCK beating HHH because of Austin. THat is the best job you will get from HHH.

 

As for the poster that suggested that RVD feud with Steven Richards or one of the Un-Americans, HA!! Steven is good on promos and could be molden into a solid midcarder player in time but if they booked that as a world title feud now, RAW would be down to a 2.0. Same with RVD vs Lance or Christian as no one takes those guys seriously. Test, maybe, but he would have to beat Kane Clean before they even try it. AT least you tried.

 

They need to keep the belt on HHH, just like they have to keep the Smackdown belt on Lesnar just to legitimize both of the belts.

[Guest Edwin MacPhisto]

I can't decide if I agree or disagree. On one hand, I say have HHH get the cheating win, and have RVD chase him to beat him a month later to make this into a good ol' feud...and on the other, I say oh my god, I don't care about politics or whatever, but HHH is so very, very boring right now.

 

I didn't see Summerslam, but everything I've seen on free TV has been awful. I somewhat think the writers should just mercy-kill it all and have RVD beat HHH and throw out the retarded split world title, making the IC top dog on Raw for now. Then HHH can brawl with Big Show or something that keeps in the garbagey battles he can hopefully still do.

 

I dunno. I've never been one to really hop on the HHHate bandwagon, but gawd, it's been awful just watching him waste all this airtime the past four weeks of Raw. I'd almost say a feud isn't worth it if he hadn't become the top Raw heel by default.

[Guest Brian]

It only makes sense if they're having a long feud where RVD will win. But they won't, because Michaels is coming back. They don't need the title for that feud, but they will have it. Hopefully, Michaels interferes while HHH is cheating, and RVD gets the last laugh.

 

bps, another guy who has an unavenged win over HHH. And he can get that back at No Mercy.

[Guest MrSCARY]

There's already one heel Champion, Brock Lesnar.

Do we really need another?

 

 

How about just giving the fans a World Champion they can cheer?

 

 

Also, having one heel World Champion and one face World Champion would provide some balance. IMO.

 

 

One show with a monster heel as champ.

One show with a big fan favorite wearing the gold.

 

Sounds pretty good to me.

[Guest eirejmcmahon]

I'd agree that the odds are we'll see HHH go over RVD at the next PPV BUT for the time being, how can RVD marks not be happy with him kicking seven shades of shite out of HHH on Raw ?

 

Just enjoy the moment or stop watching altogether.

[Guest Jobber of the Week]

As Keith said once, Vince has shifted from having a face like Hogan or Taker fighting off heels en masse, to having a megaheel who took out faces like crazy.

 

What was cooler? Luke Skywalker, who could take out dozens of Stormtroopers? Or Darth Vader?

 

Exactly.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

No one has ever really gotten the better of HHH decisively in the long run, which is why RVD should do it. A high-profile Jericho victory over HHH would do nothing for either person at this point. RVD still has a lot of ground he can gain, winning this feud decisively will put him in prime position. Let the good guy WIN finally, and keep winning. For the record, I'm not exactly an RVD fanboy, but raw is shit right now, and almost ANY new face on top is a breath of fresh air. They've still got a lot of talent on that show which could do well with some elevation. Booker T could use a couple high profile victories if they're serious about keeping him as anything more than a lovable comedy babyface like Godfather in 99 or Rikishi in 2000.

[Guest Si82]

Well I'd better give my thoughts:

 

Triple H. Let me start by saying that I hate this man. Sure, he was a good worker back in 2000, although I didn't like him then, and had some great matches (vs. Mick Foley, vs. The Rock, vs. Chris Jericho, VS. Benoit) was has he done recently of any worth. Since he came back he has had a failed face run and crappy and pointless title reign. That's it. Don't give me this match of the year at Summerslam bullshit because Shawn Michaels (another man I hate) carried him even with a screwed up back. The point is Triple H gives nothing and gets everything he wants, jobbing everyone he wants as a goes. It makes me sick! And now people think that Triple H should go over Rob Van Dam at Unforgiven. Why? So they can have a blow-off match at another PPV 'cause faces always wins the blow-off match. No they don't. As bps pointed out Triple H went over guys like Austin, Rock & Jericho in their blow-off matches despite being a heel. Why not ley RVD go over Triple H? I know it ain't gonna happen (probably ever) but it should. Think about it. The WWE already has Brock Lesnar as the Undisputed Champion. I mean, other than the crowd in Long Island, the fans don't really care about Brock Lesnar and he's a heel. So why not have the other Champion be a guy who is over and who the fans do care about? Triple H should go over, it's the only choice, give me a break! RVD needs to be elevated now! He is beyond the IC Title. The IC title doesn't even mean anything anymore 'cause of all the useless midcard stuff it has been involved with. The bottom line is this. RVD is over, can work and most importantly is a fresh face for the top-liner scene. He should go over Triple H at Unforgiven. Think about it...

[Guest dmos1]

Traditional booking says that the money is in RVD chasing HHH for an extended period of time. Unfortunately fans are on to that formula which only serves to make traditional booking a synonym for predictable booking.

 

Have we all forgotten that hotshotting a world title on a popular face is the formula that put Vinnie Mac and the WWF(E) on the map?

 

Fans have seen the old face chases heel formula since 98, it just might be time to switch up the stale formula. You could always put HHH in a fued with Booker T -- which doesn't need a belt -- and put a face or heel Kane up against RVD.

[Guest notJames]

The fact that there's a dearth of main event level talent to challenge for the RAW belt (either on HHH or RVD) is clearly indicative of how seriously the WW_ has fucked themselves. They have a wealth of talent in Jericho and Booker T, but bullshit politicking from the usual suspects a.k.a. the "locker room leaders" has prevented not only these guys from getting their due, but the trickle-down effect is keeping solid midcarders from making the jump, and the lowcarders with potential are never going to escape from Heat Hell.

 

It's that self-fulfilling prophecy: these guys aren't getting pops, so don't give them any opportunity to earn them.

 

Don't even get me started on the Smackdown side, especially with Old Man Calloway in the mix...

 

It's a crucial time right now to make real changes in the structure of the roster, but the top guy(s) are unwilling to step aside or make room for the natural evolution of the locker room. The main events will remain stagnant as long as Stephie's Boy Toy is holding the reigns.

 

So I guess this is my long-winded nod for RVD to go over at Unforgiven. Shit, I'd say put Lillian Garcia over HHH if it would signal some meaningful changes around here...

[Guest nikowwf]

RVD is not going over HHH. Who ever goes over HHH in a meaningful way? (Only someone who does not threaten his position could possibly be allowed over him, and even then its often in a way designed for hunter to keep his heat.)

 

Its a sign of how bad the politics with Hunter is sometimes that I cannot even imagine discussing why RVD should go over. Its like discussing where the Palestinians and Israelis should go to celebrate after their peace deal.

 

Niko

[Guest goodolemr]

Raw has become the Triple H show, with him controlling the vast majority of the tv time. It makes me sick. Monday Night Football is on the verge of returning and its looking real good right about now.

 

Notice the crowd was dead for almost everything last night. Really, why should the crowd care when almost everything was filler? The only thing that really got them going was RVD. WWE sure cut to a commercial break quickly after he saved Flair. Don’t want home viewers to get the idea people love RVD, eh?

 

Post Wrestlemania and the summer that followed has been a wash. The WWE’s mainevent scene is gone. The sad part is this is a problem the WWE created themselves. Everyone said, make new maineventers, elevate some new guys. Did the WWE listen? Nope. Instead, the bookers and ‘locker room leaders’ played politics with the careers of guys like Jericho and now the WWE is playing the price. The bookers didn’t give any wrestler not named Triple H, Taker, Austin, or Rock any respect and the audience reacted accordingly by changing the channel.

 

Does anyone really think RVD is going to be ‘elevated’ after Triple H pins him at Unforgiven? The same way Hardy and Jericho were ‘elevated?’ Triple H has no rub to give. He doesn’t elevate people; he sends them backwards. If RVD becomes a true maineventer at the end of this feud, I’ll give Triple H his due. Somehow I bet it will be back to midcard hell for RVD afterwards. Triple H will give his usual “You’re not in my league” promo after pinning RVD. Forgive me if I’m a bit cynical about this.

 

Nothing is ever going to change in the WWE.

 

I wish they’d just get it over with and make RAW into a variety show hosted by Triple H.

[Guest Some Guy]

I hate to agree, but I do.

 

Triple H needs to eek out a win at Unforgiven, CHEAT TO WIN~! or something, to set up the big blowoff match at the next PPV. And THAT'S the one RVD should win.

 

But knowing the WWE, Triple H will win RVD's IC Title to become a double champ at Unforgiven, then two PPV's later squash him in a HIAC match... just because...

The thing is when HHH "CHEATS TO WIN~!" he still hits the Pedigree for the funish, thus negating the cheating. He finishes his opponenst with his primary finisher. Where as Jericho wasn't allowed to do that. That's what got HHH over initially and why Jericho didn't. I can't see HHH just eaking out a win over RVD if he wouldn't even give his best friend a decisive win with his finisher. HHH is not much of a giver and much more of a taker. Look at BPS' post for proof.

HHH ans Taker are the only 2 in the WWF who are always made to look good adn everyone else treads water by trading meaningless victories. RVD/Benoit, Edge/Angle, Eddy/Edge, Booker/whoever, etc.. Where's the elevation? It's always one step forward and one step back.

If RVD gets the title at Unforgiven he'll drop it back to HHH cleanly by Survivor Series which will lead to HHH/Brock at WM, a match that *EVERBODY* is just dying to throw $40 out to see.

[Guest NoCalMike]

Well if this feud is long term spanning over at least 2 ppvs(longterm in WWE words) then I don't have a problem with Triple H winning first at the next ppv, and having RVD win the blowoff match. I think the problem though is where Triple H's status sits with the fans. If no one cares about Triple H anymore, then RVD needs to dispose of him and this feud fast. I would like to see RVD join Smackdown where it seems he could have the BETTER matches.