A Question for the Kanenites

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Now, I've heard bitching about Kane beating the tag Champs in a handicap Match on RAW. But, here's the thing: Isn't that what he SHOULD be doing? Kane is supposed to be some unstoppable fire demon from hell, and he's up against Canadian Nationals. I don't care how much you love them Canadians, they're not gonna stop the invincable demon from hell.

 

My question is this: Why can redneck biker, UT no-sell with Test, while fire-demon Kane sells for the little guy tag champs? That seems fucked up. Shouldn't it be like Badd Blood where they hit him with everything and he sits up, and they shit themselves? It wouldn't hurt THEM, because he's Kane, he's beaten HHH clean. He's MUCH farther up the food chain then those guys in the marks eyes. Hell, in the marks eyes, they had no chance to begin with in the first place. I think Kane is suffering from Brock syndrome, where he sells too much to be a monster. What do you guys think?

[Guest Spaceman Spiff]

Kane is supposed to be some unstoppable fire demon from hell, and he's up against Canadian Nationals. I don't care how much you love them Canadians, they're not gonna stop the invincable demon from hell.

Well, I think the Kane-aroonie last week kinda lessened that image.

 

It wouldn't be so bad if it was just 2 jobbers (say, Crash & Stasiak), but that shouldn't happen to the tag champs. The tag division is so weak right now that they don't need the current champs to be treated like that.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Kane is supposed to be some unstoppable fire demon from hell, and he's up against Canadian Nationals. I don't care how much you love them Canadians, they're not gonna stop the invincable demon from hell.

Well, I think the Kane-aroonie last week kinda lessened that image.

 

It wouldn't be so bad if it was just 2 jobbers (say, Crash & Stasiak), but that shouldn't happen to the tag champs. The tag division is so weak right now that they don't need the current champs to be treated like that.

Well, they booked themselves into a corner. Kane needed a win, the Un-Americans needed to look strong. But, I'm not asking for anything, that hasn't been done before. In the first year of his career in the WWF no-sold the Superfly Splash, the DDT, The Gorilla-Press, and the Hogan Legdrop. Ut became the greatest gimmick wrestler of all time, and a major draw just by doing what he was supposed to do: Be a monster.

 

That was the popularity of the Deadman, he's unstoppable. You could hit him with anything and he just kept coming. He showed no emotion, and destroyed his opponents. Remember that "he always lands on his feet" shit? That shit NEVER gets old. Let Kane do that and you have old-school UT for the Ruthless Agression era. He has his spots down, he has a marketable look, hell, he lost thirty pounds and is in great shape.

 

Why isn't he in the ME?

[Guest KingOfOldSchool]

Yes. Back around when Kane debuted, it was much more acceptable, since that was kind of his entire character. He's been humanized, and since '99 or so, he's no longer BEEN that unstoppable monster from hell, even moreso ever since he began talking a lot and performing spinaroonies. He's just another wrestler now, and should be on the level with other wrestlers.... Especially wrestlers on the level of the Tag Team Champions.

 

Keep in mind that he didn't beat just 1/2 of the Champs, but BOTH of them. No one should be able to concievably do that. Not only because it goes against odds, but because it also makes the Tag Champs look completely weak.

 

As Spiff said, if Kane was up against a team such as Spike and Crash, Kane should take them out. In that case, said team is the equivalent of the old Saturday morning jobbers. But squashing two men who are the Tag Champs is unacceptable.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Yes. Back around when Kane debuted, it was much more acceptable, since that was kind of his entire character. He's been humanized, and since '99 or so, he's no longer BEEN that unstoppable monster from hell, even moreso ever since he began talking a lot and performing spinaroonies. He's just another wrestler now, and should be on the level with other wrestlers.... Especially wrestlers on the level of the Tag Team Champions.

 

Keep in mind that he didn't beat just 1/2 of the Champs, but BOTH of them. No one should be able to concievably do that. Not only because it goes against odds, but because it also makes the Tag Champs look completely weak.

 

As Spiff said, if Kane was up against a team such as Spike and Crash, Kane should take them out. In that case, said team is the equivalent of the old Saturday morning jobbers. But squashing two men who are the Tag Champs is unacceptable.

About the "no one should beat the tag champs alone". Realistically that argument doesn't work here because the marks see Kane as MUCH MUCH higher up the wrestling food chain then Lance and Christain, and therefore beating them is expected. Kane would have lost face for losing.

 

The humanizing aloows him to continue to be scary as hell, remember the Hogan/Kane/Rock promo? They were scared of Kane. The humanizing should be like what happened to UT in 96. A revision of his cahracter from the old school Hat and Tie to the black leather. Let him talk (UT got to) Let be more human. But don't remove the demon part of his character. Cause that's what distinguishes Kane from the other big men.

[Guest Perfect Plex]

I'm a Kane fan, (although it'll be a cold day in Hell before I refer to myself as a "Kanenite") and I object strongly to the way his character is going. True, the humanization is necessary, true they need to keep him moving, but God damn it, having him do shit like a "Kaneroonie" and cutting silly satirical promos with Rock and Hogan is just shitting on all they did with his character for four years. STOP IT. Leave his character where it was last year. Vocal, but not chatty. And certainly not a freaking break dancer. And most importantly, still frightening as Hell.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Let's be realistic here. Lance is 5"11 and Christain is 5"8. The marks don't see them as a threat to Kane. Kane should not sell thier punches and kicks, and he should be doing the zombie sit-up from thier Vertical Suplexs and Superkicks and such.

[Guest Spaceman Spiff]

Well, they booked themselves into a corner. Kane needed a win, the Un-Americans needed to look strong.

That could have easily been avoided by throwing him in there w/ 2 jobbers. You can still have Test run in after the match & lay out Kane.

 

Sure, you've made Kane look strong, but you've also just told the marks "Our tag champs are just a couple jobbers!" Regardless of the fact that they (Storm & Christian) have been treated like that for some time now, they have have the tag belts & should be built up. But it's not like the WWE even cares about the tag belts, anyway, so it's kind of a moot point.

[Guest nikowwf]

I think one of the problems the WWE has is that they don't think through who is being hurt by something.

 

Yes, Kane should demolish the tag champs if he is to get over as a monster. If they fight, he should win.

 

SO, why have them fight? Why not have Kane smash someone else, and the tag champs fight someone else?

 

Sometimes I wonder if the writing staff has any knowledge of wrestling logic?

 

Niko

[Guest Edwin MacPhisto]

Sure, you've made Kane look strong, but you've also just told the marks "Our tag champs are just a couple jobbers!" Regardless of the fact that they (Storm & Christian) have been treated like that for some time now

Why is it, by the way, that the WWE gives guys big pushes and impressive wins...until they actually win a title, when they're suddenly presented as incompetents?

 

I agree that the better booking would have been to throw Kane in there with a couple 2k2 jobbers, or maybe a few guys who usually only wrestle on Heat. You know, and maybe build to a match with these guys...

 

Oh, and here's a question. I missed the Raw where Kane returned, but why exactly is he feuding with the Canadians? Did he make some big speech about loving America?

[Guest jester]

Here's an idea. Why didn't they have Kane wrestle Test, and then have the tag champs come in for the beatdown?

 

It was a bad idea to have Kane beat the tag champs clean. This doesn't just make them look bad, it makes their challengers look bad. Goldust and Booker T couldn't beat them for the straps, but Kane could take them out by himself. The team that finally does take the belts from them will be faced with "Big deal. Kane took them apart all by himself."

 

I like Kane, but this was not the way to do things.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Well, they booked themselves into a corner. Kane needed a win, the Un-Americans needed to look strong.

That could have easily been avoided by throwing him in there w/ 2 jobbers. You can still have Test run in after the match & lay out Kane.

 

Sure, you've made Kane look strong, but you've also just told the marks "Our tag champs are just a couple jobbers!" Regardless of the fact that they (Storm & Christian) have been treated like that for some time now, they have have the tag belts & should be built up. But it's not like the WWE even cares about the tag belts, anyway, so it's kind of a moot point.

No the marks ALREADY knew that the Un-Americans wern't in Kane's league. Kane coming out with a win was academic.

 

 

Also, when Kane comes back his first match will not be against a couple of jobbers. That match was realated to events that happened last week. They should now just say, "Here's Kane and a couple jobbers, hope the Un-Americans don't run out?"

 

You're going to awful great lengths to protect a mid-card heel stable.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Sure, you've made Kane look strong, but you've also just told the marks "Our tag champs are just a couple jobbers!"  Regardless of the fact that they (Storm & Christian) have been treated like that for some time now

Why is it, by the way, that the WWE gives guys big pushes and impressive wins...until they actually win a title, when they're suddenly presented as incompetents?

 

I agree that the better booking would have been to throw Kane in there with a couple 2k2 jobbers, or maybe a few guys who usually only wrestle on Heat. You know, and maybe build to a match with these guys...

 

Oh, and here's a question. I missed the Raw where Kane returned, but why exactly is he feuding with the Canadians? Did he make some big speech about loving America?

The reasons were never explained. However his primary motivation was to help Booker.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Here's an idea. Why didn't they have Kane wrestle Test, and then have the tag champs come in for the beatdown?

 

It was a bad idea to have Kane beat the tag champs clean. This doesn't just make them look bad, it makes their challengers look bad. Goldust and Booker T couldn't beat them for the straps, but Kane could take them out by himself. The team that finally does take the belts from them will be faced with "Big deal. Kane took them apart all by himself."

 

I like Kane, but this was not the way to do things.

RAW has very few draws left. It's more important to protect a main-eventer like Kane than some mid-card heels.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

Since when is Kane a main-eventer?

[Guest KingOfOldSchool]

RAW has very few draws left. It's more important to protect a main-eventer like Kane than some mid-card heels.

The UnAmericans were hurt more by this, than Kane would have by losing... The UnAmericans actually need whatever wins they can get, especially over big names. While Kane would still be just as popular even if he had lost... I don't think anyone is too broken up if someone loses against two guys, that it gets to the point of affecting their heat or credibility.

[Guest Spaceman Spiff]

You're going to awful great lengths to protect a mid-card heel stable

No, I'm going to awful lenghts to protect the tag champs, who just happen to be in a mid-card stable.

 

Also, when Kane comes back his first match will not be against a couple of jobbers

Why not? His 1st appearance back had him breakdancing in the ring, squashing a couple jobbers couldn't possibly be any worse.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Since when is Kane a main-eventer?

Kane headlined KOTR 98, but that's the literal answer to your question. Kane's been a headliner since his program with Triple H. In the beginning of the brand extension one of the goals for RAW was to get Kane over as a ME threat. They were close to doing so when he was injured and they had to job him out to X-Pac to explain the absence. Generally you're kidding yourself if you think the fans won't except Kane in the ME before guys like Benoit, Guerrero, Edge, or Jericho.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

RAW has very few draws left. It's more important to protect a main-eventer like Kane than some mid-card heels.

The UnAmericans were hurt more by this, than Kane would have by losing... The UnAmericans actually need whatever wins they can get, especially over big names. While Kane would still be just as popular even if he had lost... I don't think anyone is too broken up if someone loses against two guys, that it gets to the point of affecting their heat or credibility.

The Un-Americans are not a long term angle. Kane is a long term commodity. If they are serious about the BE, then Kane must be used as a ME threat. The fans will pay to see Kane, they paid to see UT when he was the Deadman. True, he was never the number one draw. But he sold more tickets then Diesel or Razor, or Shawn, or even Bret.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

Who cares what they were planning to do back in April? The point is Kane isn't a main eventer NOW. Kane-a-roonis are not going to get Kane to the ME.

 

Oh, and Taker sold more tickets than Diesel/Razor/Shawn/Bret? Proof?

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

You're going to awful great lengths to protect a mid-card heel stable

No, I'm going to awful lenghts to protect the tag champs, who just happen to be in a mid-card stable.

 

Also, when Kane comes back his first match will not be against a couple of jobbers

Why not? His 1st appearance back had him breakdancing in the ring, squashing a couple jobbers couldn't possibly be any worse.

The Tag Champs don't get thier heat from winning matches, they get cheap heat for hating America. If you doubt this then you havn't watched wrestling long.

 

 

Well, why can't he beat the same jobbers he squashed?

[Guest RazorxEDGE]

Let's be realistic here. Lance is 5"11 and Christain is 5"8.

 

Christian is not 5'8". Eddie Guerrero is 5'8". Christian is billed as 5'10" by WWE, but he's actually 6'0" legit.

 

As far as the marks "buying" Kane as a main eventer moreso than Edge, Benoit, etc...you are correct. He's big, he's bad, he's high-impact/power, and he doesn't sell.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Let's be realistic here. Lance is 5"11 and Christain is 5"8.

 

Christian is not 5'8". Eddie Guerrero is 5'8". Christian is billed as 5'10" by WWE, but he's actually 6'0" legit.

And Kane is still a foot taller. I like the attention to detail but, argue about my opinions, don't nitpick.

[Guest RazorxEDGE]

I agree that Kane shouldn't sell his ass off for two Canadian midgets, but come on...you have to draw the line somewhere.

 

Here is how I would have booked it: Storm and Christian try to beat down Kane, it doesn't faze him. Choke slams for the Canadian midgets. Test runs in, Big Boot...at first Kane sells it, but then he sits up. Choke slam for Test. Out of desperation, Storm and Christian grab two steel chairs and hit Kane with a wicked Conchairto, and THAT drops him for good. Then Bradshaw can make the save.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I agree that Kane shouldn't sell his ass off for two Canadian midgets, but come on...you have to draw the line somewhere.

 

Here is how I would have booked it: Storm and Christian try to beat down Kane, it doesn't faze him. Choke slams for the Canadian midgets. Test runs in, Big Boot...at first Kane sells it, but then he sits up. Choke slam for Test. Out of desperation, Storm and Christian grab two steel chairs and hit Kane with a wicked Conchairto, and THAT drops him for good. Then Bradshaw can make the save.

That's what I was trying to pitch. I wanted to say that only something radical puts him down. (i.e. Conchairto, Three Tombstones) The he can be pushed like a monster. It won't hurt Storm/Christain because they only get heat for being Anti-American not for winning matches.

[Guest RazorxEDGE]

My logic is this: when a small technician faces off against a big, powerful monster in a match, they spend the majority of the match trying to "chop down the tree". It's a 10 to 20-minute uphill battle for the smaller guy.

 

The idea is that the small guy can never win a slugfest with the big monster and he needs to either work on a leg (They're not 7" when they're on the mat) or stick and move.

 

So why should Lance Storm and Christian defy the logic that we see in the matches and be able to beat Kane down with their bare hands? If they it takes them 10 to 20 minutes of leg work just to take him down, why should their punches and stomps be so effective in an impromptu beatdown?

[Guest Anglesault]

That's it, I'm converting to Kanism after that lovely perfromance tonight.

 

::Remembers the three minute choke, Summerslam, Unforgiven and No Mercy 01, the Big Show feud,and no selling the Liontamer at Survivor series 00::

 

Fuck that, Kane is worthless.

[Guest Anglesault]

My logic is this: when a small technician faces off against a big, powerful monster in a match, they spend the majority of the match trying to "chop down the tree". It's a 10 to 20-minute uphill battle for the smaller guy.

 

The idea is that the small guy can never win a slugfest with the big monster and he needs to either work on a leg (They're not 7" when they're on the mat) or stick and move.

 

So why should Lance Storm and Christian defy the logic that we see in the matches and be able to beat Kane down with their bare hands? If they it takes them 10 to 20 minutes of leg work just to take him down, why should their punches and stomps be so effective in an impromptu beatdown?

Because they are two people.

[Guest RazorxEDGE]

By pro wrestling logic, they are two piss-ants.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

My logic is this: when a small technician faces off against a big, powerful monster in a match, they spend the majority of the match trying to "chop down the tree". It's a 10 to 20-minute uphill battle for the smaller guy.

 

The idea is that the small guy can never win a slugfest with the big monster and he needs to either work on a leg (They're not 7" when they're on the mat) or stick and move.

 

So why should Lance Storm and Christian defy the logic that we see in the matches and be able to beat Kane down with their bare hands? If they it takes them 10 to 20 minutes of leg work just to take him down, why should their punches and stomps be so  effective in an impromptu beatdown?

Because they are two people.

But as I said before:

 

 

 

1 Unstoppable Break-Dancing Fire Demon From Hell > 2 Canadian Nationals

 

 

 

 

 

It's just that simple.